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Subban for Hamonic

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Old
08-10-2012, 02:15 PM
  #101
GravelTheOne
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Originally Posted by centrehice View Post
He trolls the other team, and is "disrespectful" of Vets/Don Cherry.

Other than that, he's fast, creative, great passer, great shot, great hitter, great in his own end...

Sounds like plenty of faults... WhyDidUJoin?

Edit: Ahhhh, FYI guys, you might not want to get your scouting reports from WhyDidIJoin, as I just noticed he's talking about Komisarek's positive trade value in another thread... enough said?
This.

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08-10-2012, 02:16 PM
  #102
Yashin for President
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Im not saying Subban is a bad player. Its just that Hamonic doesn't get enough respect. Pair him with Visnosky or Streit for the whole season and then we can put up his numbers against Subbans. Hamonics leadership qualities are also underrated. If this season ever gets started and Visnosky is in the lineup I think Hamonic has a very good season. The Isles will be younger and faster.

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08-10-2012, 02:18 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Yashin for President View Post
Im not saying Subban is a bad player. Its just that Hamonic doesn't get enough respect. Pair him with Visnosky or Streit for the whole season and then we can put up his numbers against Subbans. Hamonics leadership qualities are also underrated. If this season ever gets started and Visnosky is in the lineup I think Hamonic has a very good season. The Isles will be younger and faster.
Why would pairing Hamonic with one of two high output offensive D be akin to Subban playing on a pairing with Gorges? You know, the shutdown D with a career high of 23 points 4 years ago.

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08-10-2012, 02:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Well, for one, having the most minor penalties over the last two years, by a significant amount (placing #1 in both years). 20 more than the next Montreal player this year (yes, that is 47 by him, 27 by the next player - almost double). While he plays a lot of minutes, this is one warning sign that he may not be able to fully handle it. He has a couple fights each year as well, and is not all that good at it.

He is not all that great defensively, at least enough to be called top-pairing. In fact, in the video posted, you can even see that he positioned himself wrong setting up for a lot of the big hits. In the ones that make the video, it all works out, but there are plenty of times when that bites him in the ass.

He puts up a decent amount of points, but not #1 D worthy, at least when considering his defensive deficiencies.

For somebody people call such a great hitter, and for somebody who plays so many minutes, his hit numbers and blocked shots numbers aren't all that spectacular.

Also, while having an attitude can be good, he takes it to the extreme, which can hurt you and the team. He has already gotten a bit of a reputation for playing on, or past the edge and being a cheap player. And yes, referees do take note of this.

To be honest, I think Gorges is more important to your team at this point. Subban only gets more minutes because of the PP time. Also, if Markov ever does come back, he is (or at least was) better than both of them.

He definitely has top-pairing potential, but it is yet to be seen if he will reach that, and I don't see the #1 superstar potential in him. I think he tops out as an average #1, most likely becoming a good #2/3.

Actually, from his career path and style of play, he reminds me of a lesser Phaneuf.
Having the most PIMs is not that crazy considering he has the most ice time of any player on the habs, is still VERY young, and has already got a reputation and is watched more closely because of it.
He's also very good defensively. You think he would be out on the PK, and playing a ton of regular str minutes under J. Martin, if he wasn't good in his own end? You need to remember the last 2 years, he was a 21-22 year old.
Saying his points aren't "#1D worthy" and his hit/blocked shot stats COULD BE BETTER, are not flaws. He's a young defenseman nowhere near his prime, and already playing #1D minutes.

Again, I don't see you pointing out "flaws"

Flaws are, his skating isn't good, doesn't have a good shot, bad work ethic, etc, those are flaws.
36-38 points as a 21-22 year old Dman in the NHL is not a flaw. It's pretty damn good.

So where are these "flaws"?

Maybe you should stick with your scouting reports on Komisarek's positive trade value.

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Old
08-10-2012, 02:21 PM
  #105
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You likely had your eyes closed the entire time you 'followed' him. Subban was lights out last year. He had a few high profile mistakes early on in the season which you no doubt saw in your TSN highlights, and led to many people assuming he was on a sophomore slump, which couldn't be further from the truth. He improved on his first season.

He produced despite the powerplay being useless, he shutdown top opposition and played huge minutes every night. His production stats, +/-, and microstats all point to him having a great season, and people who actually watched him know it to be the truth.
Lets be fair. Subban struggled at times at both ends of the ice and had a career worst shooting percentage. He also has a tendancy to take dumb penalties. He's not perfect, but his upside is still there. The fact that he had such impressive numbers despite struggling for the 1st third of the season isn't just disappointing, it also very promising. If he can find consistency he could be a real force. His issues aren't unfix-able, they're mostly categorized as development pains that can pretty much all be tied back to over exuberance (forcing shots, going for the big hits and taking dumb penalties). Those can all be fixed with maturation. They might not be as well. He's a polarizing player, overrated by Habs fans and underrated by pretty much everyone else. He's got incredible upside, but its just that right now. That being said, Hamonic isn't at Subban's level and may never be at his level. He's another underrated player who's fans preach upside and potential without looking at the now.

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08-10-2012, 02:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
Corsi Rel QoC is probably the best statistical measure for determining a player's quality of competition. Subban has a Corsi Rel QoC of 1.266, Hamonic has a Corsi Rel QoC of 0.811.
Let's see both guys have played in the same league against the same players for the better part of 2 years now. I guess you can argue Subban has played in a couple playoff series, but it's not like he spearheaded the Canadiens to either of them. In terms of QoC, I would say both guys are equal, now if one was in the AHL and the other in the NHL, then you would have a valid argument.

As I said previously, Hamonic has played against other teams top players and on the first unit of the PK, if that isn't "quality time" for a defenseman I don't know what is

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08-10-2012, 02:24 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
What makes you say he is not great defensively? Is it by watching the hits video? Great argument there.

No, from watching him play. The video posted was just an example I could point to.

He is not terrible defensively, but not top-pairing ability, let alone #1 superstar.

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08-10-2012, 02:25 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Yashin for President View Post
Im not saying Subban is a bad player. Its just that Hamonic doesn't get enough respect. Pair him with Visnosky or Streit for the whole season and then we can put up his numbers against Subbans. Hamonics leadership qualities are also underrated. If this season ever gets started and Visnosky is in the lineup I think Hamonic has a very good season. The Isles will be younger and faster.
I do respect Hamonic and I also think he's a great D. But Subban is a special kid, rare player. It would take so much to move him, I expect him to be a Habs for a long long time.


Last edited by GravelTheOne: 08-10-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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08-10-2012, 02:25 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
Lets be fair. Subban struggled at times at both ends of the ice and had a career worst shooting percentage. He also has a tendancy to take dumb penalties. He's not perfect, but his upside is still there. The fact that he had such impressive numbers despite struggling for the 1st third of the season isn't just disappointing, it also very promising. If he can find consistency he could be a real force. His issues aren't unfix-able, they're mostly categorized as development pains that can pretty much all be tied back to over exuberance (forcing shots, going for the big hits and taking dumb penalties). Those can all be fixed with maturation. They might not be as well. He's a polarizing player, overrated by Habs fans and underrated by pretty much everyone else. He's got incredible upside, but its just that right now. That being said, Hamonic isn't at Subban's level and may never be at his level. He's another underrated player who's fans preach upside and potential without looking at the now.
Of course he struggled ' at times'. He's young. But people painting his entire season with that brush are flat out wrong. There's no way his corsi and other stats would be that good if he wasn't consistently dominant in the defensive zone, which he was. As for struggling in the offensive zone, the entire team couldn't score and he still walked away with the t28th ranking for offensive production in defensemen.

Corey Pronman, whom many have a lot of respect for, has gone on the record and called Subban a legit #1 d. He really is that good.

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08-10-2012, 02:26 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Yashin for President View Post
Im not saying Subban is a bad player. Its just that Hamonic doesn't get enough respect. Pair him with Visnosky or Streit for the whole season and then we can put up his numbers against Subbans. Hamonics leadership qualities are also underrated. If this season ever gets started and Visnosky is in the lineup I think Hamonic has a very good season. The Isles will be younger and faster.
See, this is what I mean. Its not certain Hamonic would improve if he's playing with an offensive D. It may just mean he has to cover for them when they sneak into the zone. Plus, its not like Subban was mooching points of his D partner, the offensive dynamo that is Josh Gorges.

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08-10-2012, 02:28 PM
  #111
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what is up with everybody on HF talking about subban's 'issues'?

****

off

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08-10-2012, 02:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Well, for one, having the most minor penalties over the last two years, by a significant amount (placing #1 in both years). 20 more than the next Montreal player this year (yes, that is 47 by him, 27 by the next player - almost double). While he plays a lot of minutes, this is one warning sign that he may not be able to fully handle it. He has a couple fights each year as well, and is not all that good at it.

You do realize that Hamonic is also among his team leaders in penalty minutes the last two years, with Subban only having a little more the past two years. As for Subban not being a good fighter being a flaw lolol, the fact that he fights knowing that he isn't a fighter speaks volumes about his character and team first mentality. Last year we didn't have any tough players (Moen was injured and Staubitz was a late season addition) so Subban took it on himself to fight. AND I wouldn't call Subban a bad fighter, he can hold his own.

He is not all that great defensively, at least enough to be called top-pairing. In fact, in the video posted, you can even see that he positioned himself wrong setting up for a lot of the big hits. In the ones that make the video, it all works out, but there are plenty of times when that bites him in the ass.

Subban is not that great defensively? He is our best defenseman for a reason, he gets played during the final minutes of a game even when we have a lead, you don't play payers that are bad defensively during those crucial times.

He puts up a decent amount of points, but not #1 D worthy, at least when considering his defensive deficiencies.
To be a #1 D you got to have mastered the D aspect of the game, the amount of points the player is all an added bonus and shouldn't factor into whether a player is a number one D or not. BAsed on your reasoning Karlsson is better then Chara among others.

For somebody people call such a great hitter, and for somebody who plays so many minutes, his hit numbers and blocked shots numbers aren't all that spectacular.

This one is funny... Lidstrom says hi.

Also, while having an attitude can be good, he takes it to the extreme, which can hurt you and the team. He has already gotten a bit of a reputation for playing on, or past the edge and being a cheap player. And yes, referees do take note of this.

I can't even... I won't even bother...

To be honest, I think Gorges is more important to your team at this point. Subban only gets more minutes because of the PP time. Also, if Markov ever does come back, he is (or at least was) better than both of them.

I don't understand this point, since this is about Subban. And so What if Subban has more PP time then Gorges? He also has more ES ice time as well

He definitely has top-pairing potential, but it is yet to be seen if he will reach that, and I don't see the #1 superstar potential in him. I think he tops out as an average #1, most likely becoming a good #2/3.

Actually, from his career path and style of play, he reminds me of a lesser Phaneuf.
....

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08-10-2012, 02:31 PM
  #113
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what is up with everybody on HF talking about subban's 'issues'?

****

off
I think that's pretty obvious. Montreal still didn't sign him, so there's 2 categories that come to mind:

1) Fans who want him to sign a pretty low amount deal.
2) Fans of other teams who see him not signed and want to acquire him for lower than his is real market value.

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08-10-2012, 02:34 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
what is up with everybody on HF talking about subban's 'issues'?

****

off
Yah seriously. I hear so many fanbases ask for subban when apparently he has issues. Then when we say he's not available they blow up. Not saying it happened in this thread, just saying in general.

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08-10-2012, 02:35 PM
  #115
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Let's see both guys have played in the same league against the same players for the better part of 2 years now. I guess you can argue Subban has played in a couple playoff series, but it's not like he spearheaded the Canadiens to either of them. In terms of QoC, I would say both guys are equal, now if one was in the AHL and the other in the NHL, then you would have a valid argument.

As I said previously, Hamonic has played against other teams top players and on the first unit of the PK, if that isn't "quality time" for a defenseman I don't know what is
I'm not arguing that, I'm just presenting the facts. Among D that played more than 10 games, Subban had the 15th Highest Corsi Rel QoC. Its not so much an indication of Hamonic playing against inferior competition (he had the 2nd highest on the Isles), its an indication of just how heavily Montreal had to rely on him on the PK and against other teams top lines. That's something nobody seems to understand. The fact that he had a positive +/- on minus team and Montreal had the 2nd best PK in the league is a true testament to how he's commited to improving his defensive play. Ideally Montreal wouldn't have to rely so heavily on him defensively, but they had no real defensive depth behind him and Gorges. Just an aging Gill, two 25 yr old rookies, Campoli and Spacek/Kaberle the last 2 being an absolute nightmare defensively(We called them CaKa).

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08-10-2012, 02:45 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
Subban also faced a higher level of competition. I like Hamonic a lot, but he's not at Subban's level yet.
Gorges and Subban faced 1st line competition. and were top 10 as a D pair.
Mcdonald and hamonic faced first comp and were top 12 as a D pair

Even points:
Subban 81GM 2EVG 20EVA 22EVP .27EVP/GM
Hamonic 73GM 1EVG 17EVA 18EVP .25EVP/GM

PK:
Hamonic 2nd pairing dman
Subban top 15 dman.

PP:
Hamonic top 12 PPP/60
Subban 90th PPP/60

Both face 1st comp and generate equal EVP and GA.

Subban is far superior to hamonic on the PK.

Hamonic was superior on the PP was not used as extensively as should have been. Bump in minutes should result in him having better overall point totals.

pretty much equal in effect on there team last year.

would like either equally.

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08-10-2012, 02:45 PM
  #117
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Having the most PIMs is not that crazy considering he has the most ice time of any player on the habs, is still VERY young, and has already got a reputation and is watched more closely because of it.
Most minors IN THE LEAGUE. Not the habs. Well, yes the Habs as well. But the LEAGUE. Two years running. By a significant amount.

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He's also very good defensively. You think he would be out on the PK, and playing a ton of regular str minutes under J. Martin, if he wasn't good in his own end? You need to remember the last 2 years, he was a 21-22 year old.
Saying his points aren't "#1D worthy" and his hit/blocked shot stats COULD BE BETTER, are not flaws. He's a young defenseman nowhere near his prime, and already playing #1D minutes.
Given who the rest of Montreal's defense is, yes. And he does not play the most minutes when you take away PP time.

His points are not anything spectacular, and offense is what most Subban-lovers point to. If his offense isn't top-pairing worthy, and nothing else is top-pairing worthy except for his ice time, he is not a top-pairing defenseman.

For the amount of ice time he gets, and the hype he gets, his hits and blocked shots are worse than "could be better".

Also, I'd say he is pretty close to his prime. 23 years old, and already given every opportunity imaginable.

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Maybe you should stick with your scouting reports on Komisarek's positive trade value.
Way to take something from another thread entirely. Maybe I should follow around your posts too.

Komisarek doesn't have good trade value, but it is not negative. He would have value to some teams in the NHL. That is all I said, and it has nothing to do with the current discussion.

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08-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #118
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You do realize that Hamonic is also among his team leaders in penalty minutes the last two years, with Subban only having a little more the past two years.
Um... no. Subban this year, 47 minors, first on his team. Hamonic, 19 minors, 4th on his team. Last season, Subban had 42 minors, 1st on his team. Hamonic had 24 minors, tied for 2nd on his team.

That is 89 for Subban to 43 for Hamonic. More than double.

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Originally Posted by HABS2DCUP View Post
As for Subban not being a good fighter being a flaw lolol, the fact that he fights knowing that he isn't a fighter speaks volumes about his character and team first mentality. Last year we didn't have any tough players (Moen was injured and Staubitz was a late season addition) so Subban took it on himself to fight. AND I wouldn't call Subban a bad fighter, he can hold his own.
Fighting when you can't fight isn't a team-first mentality, especially when you are a defenseman, and especially when you should be eating up minutes.

According to Hockeyfights, he has lost all but one fight in his career (and that one was close).

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Originally Posted by HABS2DCUP View Post
To be a #1 D you got to have mastered the D aspect of the game, the amount of points the player is all an added bonus and shouldn't factor into whether a player is a number one D or not. BAsed on your reasoning Karlsson is better then Chara among others.
Defense is neither based around defensive nor offensive ability solely, especially when talking about the players at the top of the league. Subban has also been touted mainly for his offensive ability since entering the league.

And while I don't fully agree, look who won the Norris.

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Originally Posted by HABS2DCUP View Post
This one is funny... Lidstrom says hi.
Hi Lidstrom. I said nothing about needing to be a good hitter to be good defensively. Nobody shouted that Lidstrom was a great hitter or shot blocker like they do with Subban (though shot blocks aren't that far off), and Lidstrom's positioning made Subban look like a child.

Detroit also plays a completely different system.

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Originally Posted by HABS2DCUP View Post
I don't understand this point, since this is about Subban. And so What if Subban has more PP time then Gorges? He also has more ES ice time as well
No he doesn't.

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08-10-2012, 03:04 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Also, I'd say he is pretty close to his prime. 23 years old, and already given every opportunity imaginable.
The quote of the day!

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08-10-2012, 03:41 PM
  #120
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Hamonic is a great player. I'd love him. The cost of Subban for him is fair. Do I want to lose Subban ? No. Do the Islanders fans want to lose Hamonic ? No.

No fan feels comfortable losing a key player unless there's a massive overpayment. To be honest, I could see a deal like this happening and neither team would be overly thrilled until they got comfortable with their new respective player.

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08-10-2012, 03:44 PM
  #121
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I would take Hamonic over PK. Both good players, Hamonic is just so solid, has less theatrics than PK, but could really help solidify the habs defence.

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08-10-2012, 03:48 PM
  #122
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Would love to have PK, but Not willing to part with Hammer

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08-10-2012, 03:55 PM
  #123
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Hamonic is a great player. I'd love him. The cost of Subban for him is fair. Do I want to lose Subban ? No. Do the Islanders fans want to lose Hamonic ? No.

No fan feels comfortable losing a key player unless there's a massive overpayment. To be honest, I could see a deal like this happening and neither team would be overly thrilled until they got comfortable with their new respective player.
This is exactly it. It is really to bad the way this thread was derailed.

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08-10-2012, 04:21 PM
  #124
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Why?

Habs are happy with PK and PK is happy with the Habs. No need to make a sideways trade. Nothing against Hamonic but this trade little sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin
To be honest, I think Gorges is more important to your team at this point. Subban only gets more minutes because of the PP time. Also, if Markov ever does come back, he is (or at least was) better than both of them.
Gorges and PK play ES together 99% of the time. Also note while looking at his stats that Subban was sophomore slumping in the first half of the season, he's been a rockstar after. I know its fun to judge players based on stat sheet but it pays to watch them play as well.


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08-10-2012, 05:31 PM
  #125
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I will probably get bashed for this, but I think I rather have Hamonic. Think he ends up the better player.
This is where I stopped reading...

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