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Old
08-10-2012, 05:07 PM
  #26
LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Both players are still improving and neither has reached the limit of their potential.
Yes, but why ignore that kessel is 4 years and change older than seguin? It's not close. I think both are great talents and kessel isn't done improving either, but it took kessel 6 nhl seasons to reach this point.

I'm not a boston fan at all but this isn't even bias if I were. Seguin will have the same impact as kessel and their values are probably identical.

Quote:
Seguin doesn't have an 82-point season and plays on a more talented team and benefits from sheltered minutes.
Oh please. You think Kessel got tough minutes during his time in Boston? They actually come from the same team a few seasons difference.

A more talented team doesn't account for 30 points more at same age.

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08-10-2012, 05:08 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
I'm not sure if we want to get into moot issues, but technically you could include the trade Burke HAD to make in order to get the assets NEEDED to threaten an offer sheet on Kessel and force Chiarelli to make a trade.

Maybe it looks like this instead:


Phil Kessel
Joe Colborne
John-Michael Liles
Tyler Biggs (ANA 1st 2011)
Wayne Primeau
Mikhail Grabovski


Tyler Seguin (TOR 1st 2010)
Jared Knight (TOR 2nd 2010)
Dougie Hamilton (TOR 1st 2011)
Tomas Kaberle


John Gibson (TOR 2nd 2011)
Rickard Rakell (BOS 1st 2011)


Brandon Saad (CGY 2nd 2011)
Michael Paliotta (TOR 3rd 2011)


Anton Stralman
Colin Stuart
Matth DeBlouw (TOR 7th 2012)


Greg Pateryn

Everything not under the Toronto Banner is technically an asset Toronto gave up to acquire the assets under the Toronto banner.

While it's too early to tell on the 2011 and 2012 draft picks, from what I hear, the Chicago fans really like Brandon Saad, so overall Toronto got some okay stuff, but it's still open for debate in this entire trade scheme, although I guess really we should look at this in 20 years to really know for sure. For what it's worth, I really like the Kessel trade, and honestly believe he is the best player in the entire group, although Seguin certainly looks like the closest behind.

I was also going to point out that Kessel and Seguin are very close in age, so arguing that Seguin is AS GOOD AS Kessel based on Seguin being younger is irrelevant. He's not as good right now. Period.

and we love Pateryn . Seguin is younger than Kessel by 4 years btw|!

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08-10-2012, 05:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
A more talented team doesn't account for 30 points more at same age.
I'd say about 20.

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08-10-2012, 06:42 PM
  #29
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This is stupid to evaluate at this point in time. It is probably just as stupid to evaluate into the future. It is one thing to evaluate a 1-for-1 trade when both or even one player has already established what he will become. Here we have 6 players, and we have no idea what any of them will become, or would have become in different circumstances.

Both teams are happy with their players. An argument can be made for why either team won. An argument can be made for why either team lost. Toronto has the better players, but Boston likely has more potential with their players.

We also don't know how each of these players would have developed with the other team.

Stupid to discuss, and will just turn into a flame war.

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08-10-2012, 07:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
We all know boston won, lets move on.
Seguin>>Kessel
Liles>>Kaberle
Knight>Colborne
Hamilton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nothing

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Old
08-10-2012, 07:54 PM
  #31
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Boston wins the deal. Why, they won the cup that year. Winning a cup tops all imo. As of right now the leafs got the best player ion the trade but I see that easily changing with Sequin emerging as a legit top centre(dont think he will reach elite status though)

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08-10-2012, 08:21 PM
  #32
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Im noticing alot of questions as to who is better Kessel or Seguin and a simple way to put it is who would u rather have on ur team or to build around?
I personally would take Seguin but I'm a little bias so I was wondering who others would choose.
Also these trades were not done to be a clear cut winner these trades were for certain needs the teams had or didn't have. There will only be two hockey clubs with really good players on them... Once Toronto starts to put what they have together we will all see Kessy leading the charge on offense.

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08-10-2012, 08:56 PM
  #33
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seguin for 2 1st's and a 2nd!

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08-10-2012, 09:18 PM
  #34
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Kessel > Seguin at this point. Anyone who says otherwise is either clueless or a blind homer.

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08-10-2012, 09:21 PM
  #35
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The way I see it

Kaberle = Liles
Seguin = Kessel
Knight = Colbourne
Hamilton >>> Percy

So Boston wins easily.

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08-10-2012, 09:23 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MintoMadDogsKiller18 View Post
Kessel > Seguin at this point. Anyone who says otherwise is either clueless or a blind homer.
Go on call me a blind homer ? I'm a habs fan ?!??!?!

Seguin is by far more valuable than Kessel.

Kessel is an allstar offensive force for sure.
Kessel wouldn't be a piece that people build around. Seguin is.

If you build around Kessel, you get a team like Toronto. Or Colombus to put it in perspective(nash.)...

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08-10-2012, 09:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Go on call me a blind homer ? I'm a habs fan ?!??!?!

Seguin is by far more valuable than Kessel.

Kessel is an allstar offensive force for sure.
Kessel wouldn't be a piece that people build around. Seguin is.

If you build around Kessel, you get a team like Toronto. Or Colombus to put it in perspective(nash.)...
Kessel > Seguin in overall abilities. He is the better player of the 2. I never said he has more value.

And no you aren't a blind homer if you believe Seguin > Kessel, you are just clueless, and you back up my point because I said anyone who thinks Seguin > Kessel is either clueless or a blind homer yet you are trying to show why you don't fall into the blind homer category, when clearly if you don't fall into the blind homer category, you fall into the clueless category.

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08-10-2012, 09:45 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MintoMadDogsKiller18 View Post
Kessel > Seguin in overall abilities. He is the better player of the 2. I never said he has more value.

And no you aren't a blind homer if you believe Seguin > Kessel, you are just clueless, and you back up my point because I said anyone who thinks Seguin > Kessel is either clueless or a blind homer yet you are trying to show why you don't fall into the blind homer category, when clearly if you don't fall into the blind homer category, you fall into the clueless category.
Seguin has atleast equal value or greater because he is a better 2 way player than Kessel and at the same age Kessel only had 37 points while Seguin had 67 points, Seguin has the potential to be a much better overall player and a better offensive player.

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08-10-2012, 09:58 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Seguin has atleast equal value or greater because he is a better 2 way player than Kessel and at the same age Kessel only had 37 points while Seguin had 67 points, Seguin has the potential to be a much better overall player and a better offensive player.
I never said anything about value, I said Kessel is the better player right now, I never said he has more value.

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08-10-2012, 10:04 PM
  #40
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Sorry, got to add my 2 cents.

1) Tor was expected to challenge for a playoff spot but forgot we had Toskala...didn't expect it to be a lottery pick but that's what happened

2) They gave up a little too much for a proven 22yr old scoring winger....not much but a little...I thought the second 1st rounder should have been a 2nd rounder

3) How many 1st rounders turn out to be busts and how many don't turn out to have the impact of Kessel

4) Since you are using hindsight of the players picked to evaluate the trade, then you need to compare their entire careers, not 1 or 2 and their potential....just look at a few that started very well but currently aren't rated as high (i.e. JVR, Stastny, and the list goes on).

5) You shouldn't look at the player taken with the pick but just the pick. You have 6th and 7th rounders like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Does that mean that a trade involving those picks would have been horrible? NO!!! It just means that those picks turned out to be lucky. If DET thought that they would've been that good...do you really think they would have waited until the 6th or 7th round? It was good that their scouts had them on the radar but they simply got lucky.

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08-10-2012, 10:10 PM
  #41
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the thing about the Kessel trade is that it has the potential to go down as one of the worst of all time for both sides, not just Toronto, because of Boston's capability to win the Cup over the past 3 seasons.

If the Bruins had Kessel instead of a shiny draft pick in the 2010 playoffs, they certainly get past the disastrous Philadelphia series and then easily steamroll Montreal. Against Chicago they have a good chance (going on the logic that a team which beats Philadelphia is better than Philadelphia itself), let's throw out an arbitrary number and say they get a 50-50 shot at a Cup.

Then it's very likely that they repeat in 2011, as they won a Cup with Seguin providing basically zero support outside of the Tampa Bay game, and likely win the Cup in fewer games.

Fast forward to last season: Seguin led the team in scoring but Kessel would've done the same, and by a higher margin, and likely would have added more than 3 points come playoff time. Is that enough to get past the Caps? I think so, considering it went to OT Game 7. After that, they stood as good a chance as any getting through the East (what a weak playoff year for the East it was). I doubt they can get past LA, though.

Next year is probably the last that Kessel will outproduce Seguin, though it still represents another year where the Bruins would benefit more from their former winger than their current center; another year where their chance at a Cup is less than it could have been.

On Toronto's side, it's not that they traded Seguin and Hamilton given that subtracting Kessel's production from those two Leaf teams would easily, easily make them the worst team in the league. It's not that Toronto traded Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel, it's that they traded Hall and RNH. Ouch.

on the one hand you set a franchise back a decade, and on the other hand you miss out on the chance of 1, 2, hell maybe even 3 more Cups. Legitimately terrible trade for both teams.

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Old
08-10-2012, 10:19 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
the thing about the Kessel trade is that it has the potential to go down as one of the worst of all time for both sides, not just Toronto, because of Boston's capability to win the Cup over the past 3 seasons.

If the Bruins had Kessel instead of a shiny draft pick in the 2010 playoffs, they certainly get past the disastrous Philadelphia series and then easily steamroll Montreal. Against Chicago they have a good chance (going on the logic that a team which beats Philadelphia is better than Philadelphia itself), let's throw out an arbitrary number and say they get a 50-50 shot at a Cup.

Then it's very likely that they repeat in 2011, as they won a Cup with Seguin providing basically zero support outside of the Tampa Bay game, and likely win the Cup in fewer games.

Fast forward to last season: Seguin led the team in scoring but Kessel would've done the same, and by a higher margin, and likely would have added more than 3 points come playoff time. Is that enough to get past the Caps? I think so, considering it went to OT Game 7. After that, they stood as good a chance as any getting through the East (what a weak playoff year for the East it was). I doubt they can get past LA, though.

Next year is probably the last that Kessel will outproduce Seguin, though it still represents another year where the Bruins would benefit more from their former winger than their current center; another year where their chance at a Cup is less than it could have been.

On Toronto's side, it's not that they traded Seguin and Hamilton given that subtracting Kessel's production from those two Leaf teams would easily, easily make them the worst team in the league. It's not that Toronto traded Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel, it's that they traded Hall and RNH. Ouch.

on the one hand you set a franchise back a decade, and on the other hand you miss out on the chance of 1, 2, hell maybe even 3 more Cups. Legitimately terrible trade for both teams.
Good points but could also be considered a good trade for both teams......a young 22yr old proven scorer for two 1st and one 2nd round pick. You see the results....how many first rounders turn out to have Kessels ability? Because of the unknown/chance, that's why multiple picks were involved.

BTW......I haven't seen Dougie play much but he has not looked that good the last two games. I only saw bits and pieces but he looked out of place for at least 2 of Russia's goals...........I hope he's just having an off time.

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Old
08-10-2012, 10:30 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
I'm not sure if we want to get into moot issues, but technically you could include the trade Burke HAD to make in order to get the assets NEEDED to threaten an offer sheet on Kessel and force Chiarelli to make a trade.

Maybe it looks like this instead:


Phil Kessel
Joe Colborne
John-Michael Liles
Tyler Biggs (ANA 1st 2011)
Wayne Primeau
Mikhail Grabovski


Tyler Seguin (TOR 1st 2010)
Jared Knight (TOR 2nd 2010)
Dougie Hamilton (TOR 1st 2011)
Tomas Kaberle


John Gibson (TOR 2nd 2011)
Rickard Rakell (BOS 1st 2011)


Brandon Saad (CGY 2nd 2011)
Michael Paliotta (TOR 3rd 2011)


Anton Stralman
Colin Stuart
Matth DeBlouw (TOR 7th 2012)


Greg Pateryn

Everything not under the Toronto Banner is technically an asset Toronto gave up to acquire the assets under the Toronto banner.

While it's too early to tell on the 2011 and 2012 draft picks, from what I hear, the Chicago fans really like Brandon Saad, so overall Toronto got some okay stuff, but it's still open for debate in this entire trade scheme, although I guess really we should look at this in 20 years to really know for sure. For what it's worth, I really like the Kessel trade, and honestly believe he is the best player in the entire group, although Seguin certainly looks like the closest behind.

I was also going to point out that Kessel and Seguin are very close in age, so arguing that Seguin is AS GOOD AS Kessel based on Seguin being younger is irrelevant. He's not as good right now. Period.
I think you went too far with this. For example, should Mikhail Grabovski be on the list? He was coming back for the first time for the 2nd round pick. However, they used a 2011 second round pick (#43-Brandon Saad) and a 2011 third round pick (#69-Michael Paliotta) to get back the 2010 second round pick (#32-Jared Knight) as basis for an offersheet.

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Old
08-10-2012, 10:35 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Yes, but why ignore that kessel is 4 years and change older than seguin? It's not close. I think both are great talents and kessel isn't done improving either, but it took kessel 6 nhl seasons to reach this point.

I'm not a boston fan at all but this isn't even bias if I were. Seguin will have the same impact as kessel and their values are probably identical.



Oh please. You think Kessel got tough minutes during his time in Boston? They actually come from the same team a few seasons difference.

A more talented team doesn't account for 30 points more at same age.
Ummm, they actually played for the same team at the times that are being measured.....

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08-10-2012, 10:39 PM
  #45
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I fear this will derail quite quickly into the usual insanity that most threads on here end up turning into, especially given the subject matter. Regardless, I am interested in how the trade(s) in total look a few years later and everyones respective opinions on it.


Boston gets:
Kaberle
Seguin
Knight
Hamilton

Toronto Gets:
Kessel
Liles
Colbourne
Percy


I think I've got the totality of this trade right. If I've gotten it wrong let me know and I will happily make any necessary corrections.

Best,
T
I will say this while Boston still wins I have never thought this trade was the landslide it has been made out to be. Boston won a Cup so credit to them and that would obviously be the decisive blow. But people who want to put this up there with worst trades ever which used to be trotted out are very far off base.

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08-10-2012, 10:46 PM
  #46
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I will say this while Boston still wins I have never thought this trade was the landslide it has been made out to be. Boston won a Cup so credit to them and that would obviously be the decisive blow. But people who want to put this up there with worst trades ever which used to be trotted out are very far off base.
Nah, its not that bad. In order for it to be considered in worst trades ever is for Seguin to develop into a Spezza-like player (not unreasonable), Hamilton develop into a Chara-like player (very unlikely), and for Kessel to play lazily, but put up points until his next contract, which will be massive. Then play supremely lazily and get bought out and leave for the KHL (almost 100% chance of happening).

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08-10-2012, 10:50 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
and we love Pateryn . Seguin is younger than Kessel by 4 years btw|!
With a degenerative hip issue if I remember right. Now Kessel has a well documented health problem and sad but true cancer can reoccur also.

But it is still very possible Kessel plays longer if this documented health issue proves an issue for Seguin as it has with many players with it as they age.

Seguin has moved out to the wing so they play the same position right now and Kessel is in front today. I expect Seguin to become an equal or maybe better player but until he is in a center role his value isn't tremendously greater in my opinion. Pure goal scorers are hard to find and that is what Kessel is.

Like I said I give the Bruins the nod but it isn't in a blowout fashion. It can turn more lopsided again with Dougie Hamilton but that remains to be seen. Also curious to see what Tyler Seguin's next contract looks like. I would think Jeff Skinner helped set the market but if Seguin rips out of the gate he might push into a much more substantial number than Kessel is currently hauling down.

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08-10-2012, 11:15 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
the thing about the Kessel trade is that it has the potential to go down as one of the worst of all time for both sides, not just Toronto, because of Boston's capability to win the Cup over the past 3 seasons.

<snip>
You really, really gotta stretch things to suggest this was a bad deal for Boston. It's a real stretch to say Kessel could have gotten them into the finals and let them be able to match and beat Chicago, and then they would've been able to make it to the finals again and beat LA this year. That's the basic premise of your argument, yes they won the Cup in 2011 but if the didn't trade Kessel they could have three-peated! Consider that they do have a Cup win and the deal set them up better for the future (and lets not forget that the Kaberle thing wasn't actually part of the deal, though I'm sure it had some relation in Boston giving up so much for him), it's a real stretch to say the lost because they could have had 1 or 2 more cups now.

But the biggest thing though is when you get down to it all none of that really matters. Boston was getting squeezed under the cap and they had to make a move. They weren't the first team to have this happen, Ottawa lost Chara, Vancouver lost Jovanovski, Chicago had to dump a whole bunch of guys, etc etc. Boston & Kessel fall into this group, and all things considered being put in a tough place they made out like bandits, specifically because Burke badly over valued his team.

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08-10-2012, 11:22 PM
  #49
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The Kessel-Seguin trade is a whole different animal than the Kaberle one. You cant look at it as a whole like that.

Bruins made out better in the Seguin deal, I think everyone can agree on that, but only due to what the two 1sts and 2nd turned out to be. Burke didnt really get fleeced inherently with the deal he just didnt evaluate his teams that well before hand. Chiarelli really got a little lucky too with Toronto failings so badly to land 2nd overall and Hamilton falling to 9th the next year.

The Kaberle deal is a wash/ helped both team because Toronto got value for Kaberle and the Bruins won a cup.

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08-10-2012, 11:33 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Both players are still improving and neither has reached the limit of their potential.

Seguin doesn't have an 82-point season and plays on a more talented team and benefits from sheltered minutes.
He also doesnt play top PP minutes or 20 minutes a night like Kessel. Segs averaged 1.01 points per 20 minutes (played 17 min a night) which gives you 82 or 83 points in a season. Right on par with Kessels production.

It took Kessel 6 years to go PPG and Segs is in year 2... Compare year 2 from both players.. Segs with 67 points and Kessel with 37. Plus, Kessel has had only ONE season (his most recent one) that is better than Segs sophomore campaign. Watch out.

Thinking he played sheltered minutes is foolish. He played with Bergy all season against the opponents top scoring line. He just didnt get to play PK which is not surprising considering our top PK units are Bergy/Marchy and Kelly/Pevs...


Last edited by agreen23: 08-10-2012 at 11:47 PM.
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