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Old
08-10-2012, 03:05 PM
  #76
trentmccleary
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This thread is as absurd a concept as when Sens fans ask for other teams' top prospect D-men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
We need another very good young shutdown or 2-way Dman that could play with Ceci long term (Cowen is Karlsson's likely long-term partner), so trading Cowen opens that hole bigger. The only other need we really have is a top line young winger (like Ryan), so maybe something with Anaheim for Ryan, but someone would have to come back with Ryan to at least somewhat fill the hole left by Cowen.
I don't think that's a need. We have Phillips (2 years), Cowen, Methot and a close to making it Borowiecki.

Meanwhile, we have little offensive talent on the backend behind Karlsson. Gonchar is around for a year and there could be a gigantic gap between he and Ceci (making an impact)... if Ceci ever makes the NHL at all.

Ottawa will need a very good offensive D-man next season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Lol @ the massive overrating of Cowen in this thread.
We had 3x 34+ year old D-men in our top-4 last season. Cowen was the #5. We let our #6/7 D-men walk as UFA's. The D-men that we have that are close to the NHL will likely never be top-4 D-men. Cowen means a lot to the future of this franchise.

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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
And by the way, he "got" a 1B Center who turned around the Senators 2011-2012 season.
Turris isn't a 1B center and needs to prove a heck of lot more to even be considered a #2.

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Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
Turris is 22 years old, how the heck do you know if he'll be a 1B center or not?
After watching Yashin, Hossa, Havlat, Spezza and now Karlsson as 1st round picks who put up PPG/near PPG seasons by the age of 21yo... and seeing how far Turris is from ever doing that at 23 years old. Yeah, he's probably never going to be a 1B center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
And yes, Turris can certainly be a 1B center. If you watched the Sens this year, you'd realize that he's certainly a #2 Center at the moment, and his improvement throughout the year playing alongside Daniel Alfredsson was remarkable. Turris is already a legit #2 C, there's no reason to think at 22 he can't become a 1B.
He rode Alfie's jock all season and only put up 19 points in his last 40 games. He's going to have to improve substantially to show that he could ever carry a line of Lats/Silfverberg/Stone/Zibanejad/etc after Alfie retires.

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08-10-2012, 03:47 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
After watching Yashin, Hossa, Havlat, Spezza and now Karlsson as 1st round picks who put up PPG/near PPG seasons by the age of 21yo... and seeing how far Turris is from ever doing that at 23 years old. Yeah, he's probably never going to be a 1B center.
Except Yashin, Spezza are/were closer to franchise players than 1B centers. Hossa, Karlsson aren't fair comparisons either.. Mike Ribeiro, Mike Richards etc... are closer to 1B I'd say.

Not all great(1B or elite 2A) centers put up PPG at 21 years old, or even 23. And FFS he isn't even 23 yet...

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08-10-2012, 04:53 PM
  #78
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I don't like Turris and never have and have despised the Rundblad trade from square one.

Am I the only one confused as to why everyone is assuming Rundblad isn't going to be a star?

The kid is 21 years old

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Old
08-10-2012, 07:42 PM
  #79
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itt sens fans arent allowed demand high value for good young players with high potential

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Old
08-10-2012, 07:54 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
Cowen and Turris for Yakopov would work, but leave a gaping hole on defense for Ottawa.
Go make that a proposal thread. You guys are overrating him much.

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08-10-2012, 08:03 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
No, I would rather Luongo over Anderson, contracts involved. Goalies last until they are 38ish usually, has been a great mentor to Schneids and Lu would be easy to trade away for a low pick then when he has declined.
Okay, fair enough, you would rather have Luongo on the Leafs than Anderson. There aren't many (any?) Sens fans who would take Luongo and trade away Anderson considering:

a) it would cost additional assets
b) play isnt even that much better based on last year (luongo was better in the first half, anderson was better in the second half and playoffs)
c) contract is much more favourable in dollars and term based on where the team is now and what the long term plan is.

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Old
08-10-2012, 08:04 PM
  #82
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I'd imagine the only thing getting it done from the Rangers is McDonagh and that's not happening, so....I'll just take a seat over there.

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Old
08-10-2012, 08:44 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I don't like Turris and never have and have despised the Rundblad trade from square one.

Am I the only one confused as to why everyone is assuming Rundblad isn't going to be a star?

The kid is 21 years old
There's still a chance he'll be a star, sure. Rundblad has some elite tools, and if he realizes his potential, he'll be a very good player.

Personally, I think he'll end up as a 2nd pairing offensive guy. I don't think his defense is ever going to be his best asset, and he doesn't think or play the game fast enough to be a premier offense first guy like Karlsson, Boyle, etc.

Still, a great result from a 17th overall pick.

Is there any reason you don't think Turris won't become a solid top 6 guy? He scored at the same pace as Van Riemsdyk and Voracek last year, two guys who were drafted in the same year and who many already consider good top 6ers.

I see no reason why Turris can't continue to develop into a solid, two way, 55-65 point centerman, ala Stephen Weiss. Basically, a perfect #2 behind Spezza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post

Turris isn't a 1B center and needs to prove a heck of lot more to even be considered a #2.
Turris is 22 years old. He scored at a pace that over 82 games would put him at 49 points. And that was after missing training camp.

At this point, there's no reason to believe he can't become a solid #2 centerman. Has he developed as quickly as some would of liked? Probably not. But people usually have unrealistic expectations, even for top 5 picks. Not everyone will be a Crosby, Stamkos, Kane, etc.

Last year, Turris scored at the same pace as guys like Voracek, Van Riemsdyk and Okposo. All of those guys were drafted around the same point, and are pretty much the same age. I think everyone would agree that all 3 already are, or are well on their way, to becoming solid top 6ers. Heck, Voracek and Van Riemsdyk are pencilled in to be on their team's first lines. Why can't the same be said for Turris?

Personally, I think he ends up being a similar player to Stephen Weiss. Weiss didn't have his first good offensive season until he was 23 (when he notched 48 points), but has become a very good two way centerman, scoring 40+ points in each of the last 6 season, and 55+ points in 3 of those. I bet every team would love to have him anchoring their 2nd line, especially if they already had a premier guy like Spezza on line 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
He rode Alfie's jock all season and only put up 19 points in his last 40 games. He's going to have to improve substantially to show that he could ever carry a line of Lats/Silfverberg/Stone/Zibanejad/etc after Alfie retires.
You mean a 22 year old scored at a 0.5 point per game pace in his first season in a more offensive role on a new team after missing training camp?

What a bust!

As much as I love Alfredsson, he's at the tail end of his career and he won't be carrying anyone anymore. He himself didn't score at a much higher pace despite getting significantly more PP time on the top unit. (Alfredsson scored at a 0.54 pt/game pace at even strength, Turris scored at a 0.44 pt/game pace). He's not Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos, etc. Nobody's going to be riding his jock and leaching points off him, and Turris didn't do it last season.


Last edited by SixthSens: 08-11-2012 at 06:30 AM. Reason: merged triple post
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Old
08-11-2012, 01:21 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Except Yashin, Spezza are/were closer to franchise players than 1B centers. Hossa, Karlsson aren't fair comparisons either.. Mike Ribeiro, Mike Richards etc... are closer to 1B I'd say.

Not all great(1B or elite 2A) centers put up PPG at 21 years old, or even 23. And FFS he isn't even 23 yet...
He turns 23yo on Tuesday.

Players drafted as high as he was are almost always producing producing around 21yo.

Heck, even slow progressing Bobby Ryan:
21yo = 57 pts in 64 gp.

If Turris were ever going to be a star, he would have shown it in his career by now. In juniors, US college hockey, the AHL, anywhere. He would have dominated somewhere. He never has and beyond the 3rd overall selection, I can't see anything in his career that says he'll be better than say... Vermette.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Is there any reason you don't think Turris won't become a solid top 6 guy? He scored at the same pace as Van Riemsdyk and Voracek last year, two guys who were drafted in the same year and who many already consider good top 6ers.
Voracek has the weight of 3 full seasons of proof behind him.
Van Reimsdyk has a season and half, plus the playoff run.
Turris has half of a season, while being stapled to Alfredsson... but only if we ignore the games that he played for Phoenix and to a lesser extent the postseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
I see no reason why Turris can't continue to develop into a solid, two way, 55-65 point centerman, ala Stephen Weiss. Basically, a perfect #2 behind Spezza.
Did Weiss ever do that without 1st line center ice time? ... Nope.
Alfie was 60th in scoring with 59 points. Turris would never be able to get there without 1st unit PP time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Turris is 22 years old. He scored at a pace that over 82 games would put him at 49 points. And that was after missing training camp.
And a regular season pace of 43 points over 55 games.
A Senators pace of 47 points over 56 games.
A full year pace of 42 points over 62 games.

With many of those points coming within a short burst of 13 points in 16 games when he first joined Ottawa. The same exact kind of run he ha with Alfredsson as the one that Butler had with Spezza to finish 2010-11 (12 pts in his last 16 gp), when Butler was 23yo.

Oh, and Bobby Butler was on a 48 point pace in his half season worth of stats with Spezza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
At this point, there's no reason to believe he can't become a solid #2 centerman. Has he developed as quickly as some would of liked? Probably not. But people usually have unrealistic expectations, even for top 5 picks. Not everyone will be a Crosby, Stamkos, Kane, etc.
#2 center like a Todd White or an Antoine Vermette? ... Sure, maybe.

Significantly more than that? ... No, I don't think so. What has he ever done in his entire life to separate himself from those guys?
Heck, at this point in his career; Havlat already has 42 (73gp), 50 (72gp) and 59 (67gp) point seasons under his belt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Last year, Turris scored at the same pace as guys like Voracek, Van Riemsdyk and Okposo. All of those guys were drafted around the same point, and are pretty much the same age. I think everyone would agree that all 3 already are, or are well on their way, to becoming solid top 6ers. Heck, Voracek and Van Riemsdyk are pencilled in to be on their team's first lines. Why can't the same be said for Turris?
Last year, Marcus Foligno scored at the same pace as Thornton, D.Sedin, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Hossa, Ericsson, E.Staal, Ribiero, Zetterberg, Parise and St.Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Personally, I think he ends up being a similar player to Stephen Weiss. Weiss didn't have his first good offensive season until he was 23 (when he notched 48 points), but has become a very good two way centerman, scoring 40+ points in each of the last 6 season, and 55+ points in 3 of those. I bet every team would love to have him anchoring their 2nd line, especially if they already had a premier guy like Spezza on line 1.
Weiss is a penalty killer and face-off winner, Turris is neither right now.
Also, none of Weiss's career peaks happen if he hadn't have been used as a 1st line center. Not that he isn't a valuable player, but he's not putting up 55+ point seasons behind a Spezza. He's only been able to do it because he's been getting Spezza's minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
You mean a 22 year old scored at a 0.5 point per game pace in his first season in a more offensive role on a new team after missing training camp?

What a bust!
I question whether he'll ever be able to carry some of the players he'll have to on the 2nd line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
As much as I love Alfredsson, he's at the tail end of his career and he won't be carrying anyone anymore. He himself didn't score at a much higher pace despite getting significantly more PP time on the top unit. (Alfredsson scored at a 0.54 pt/game pace at even strength, Turris scored at a 0.44 pt/game pace). He's not Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Stamkos, etc. Nobody's going to be riding his jock and leaching points off him, and Turris didn't do it last season.
Really?

Alfredsson put up 61 points in 79 games last season. A 63 point pace.
Turris put up 32 points in 62 games last season. A 42 point pace.

Looks pretty significant to me. Looks like one of them would have been 44th in scoring and the other would have been 147th.

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Old
08-11-2012, 03:47 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
To Ottawa:Jared Tinordi
3rd Rd 2013

To Montreal:Cowen


To Flyers:Cowen

To Ottawa:E.Wellwood
4th Rd 2013

To Calgary:Cowen

To Ottawa:Brodie
3Rd 2013

To Ny Islanders:Cowen

To Ottawa:Bailey

To Toronto:Cowen

To Ottawa:Jesse Blacker
2nd Rd 2013
Crosby for a 7th

Malkin for future considerations

Stamkos for christoph schubert

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Lol @ the massive overrating of Cowen in this thread.
LOL @ the massive underrating of cowen in this thread.


Two can play at this game.

Go cry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Yes, that I can agree with. He fills a much-needed role on the Senators, and he has the potential to grow. It would not make sense for them to trade him. He is more valuable to the Senators than most other teams, and teams usually like to hang onto their young players regardless.

However, many of the proposals on here are 100% ridiculous.
I agree. The garbage that is proposed for cowen is preposterous.

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Originally Posted by skywalken View Post
Is he as overhyped as Rundblad? Because we all saw what Rundblad got.
You mean the player that never played in the nhl before? Oh ok, thanks for coming out bud!

Quote:
Originally Posted by skywalken View Post
I'm not trying to be a jerk. But HFSens made me and the rest of HF believe that the "mystery swede" was the next Lidstrom from the hype.
Almost all Sens fans thought you guys got fleeced 100000% based on the Sens trade thread.

So that's why I am skeptical about this Cowen character.
So you're saying cowen=rundblad, or will you just admit right now that you don't know what you're talking about.

If you take every word every poster on HFboards says without a grain of salt, may god have mercy on your sole...and i aint even religious.


Last edited by SixthSens: 08-11-2012 at 06:30 AM. Reason: merged posts
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Old
08-11-2012, 06:29 AM
  #86
TSA0402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
He turns 23yo on Tuesday.

Players drafted as high as he was are almost always producing producing around 21yo.

Heck, even slow progressing Bobby Ryan:
21yo = 57 pts in 64 gp.

If Turris were ever going to be a star, he would have shown it in his career by now. In juniors, US college hockey, the AHL, anywhere. He would have dominated somewhere. He never has and beyond the 3rd overall selection, I can't see anything in his career that says he'll be better than say... Vermette.


He was 22 last year, to make it sound like he was a 23 year old last year, is simply misguided and makes me think you have a huge bias against him.

His draft status should have nothing to do with this argument. Alot of intangibles involved, weak draft year, played for a team that would only give him 4th line ice time in Phoenix etc... nobody ever said he was going to be a Jason Spezza. Closer to a Mike Ribeiro ceiling than Vermette, I guess.

Wasn't Turris almost a PPG player in the AHL at 20? I don't know if you've watched Vermette play recently, but his offensive skills, compared to Turris, are lacking. He's been hitchcocked. I don't understand how you don't see the difference in offensive prowess between the two. Have you seen Vermette handle the puck recently? Lets see what Kyle Turris can do when he is given a full season in the NHL. And Alfredsson wasn't carrying him, for a pretty knowledgable guy it makes me question if you've been watching many of these hockey games.

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Old
08-11-2012, 10:39 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
He turns 23yo on Tuesday.

Players drafted as high as he was are almost always producing producing around 21yo.

Heck, even slow progressing Bobby Ryan:
21yo = 57 pts in 64 gp.
Point totals in seasons where they were 22 years old:

James Van Riemsdyk - 24 points in 43 games.
Jakub Voracek - 49 points in 78 games
Derick Brassard - 47 points in 74 games
Kyle Okposo - 20 points in 38 games
Andrew Ladd - 30 points in 63 games
Drew Stafford - 38 points in 64 games
Dustin Brown - 28 points in 79 games
Stephen Weiss - 29 points in 50 games
Mikko Koivu - 21 points in 64 games
Scott Hartnell - 33 points in 59 games

And all of those guys were drafted in the first half of the 1st round, most in the top 10.

So no... most top 6 players don't put up great numbers by 22 years old.

Nobody's saying Turris will be a Stamkos or Giroux, but to write him off as a 2nd line center already is, quite honestly, idiotic.

Quote:
Last year, Marcus Foligno scored at the same pace as Thornton, D.Sedin, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Hossa, Ericsson, E.Staal, Ribiero, Zetterberg, Parise and St.Louis.
Even you should recognize how idiotic this statement is, and has no impact on this argument. Turris and the guys I mentioned were drafted in the same year, in the top 10, and are at around the same point developmentally wise. Foligno and Kopitar? Not so much.

Quote:
Alfredsson put up 61 points in 79 games last season. A 63 point pace.
Turris put up 32 points in 62 games last season. A 42 point pace.
Alfredsson played at a 63 point pace, so he carried Turris? Alfredsson also got numerous stints on the top line with Spezza and Michalek (especially in 3rd periods), and played a regular PP shift there.

Alfredsson's had a great career. But he's a 2nd line forward now, and he isn't carrying anyone with dominant play.

And Bobby Ryan was never slow progressing. Maybe compared to Crosby and Ovechkin... So he played out his junior career (like many do), but the guy scored 31 goals in his rookie season.

I'd love to hear your opinion on Mikkel Boedker. He's pretty much had the same developmental experience as Turris had. Drafted high, pushed into the NHL at 18 to play for a coach that's defense first and doesn't give much ice time to young players, has one good season in the AHL, and plays very well in the playoffs last year. Still, at 21, his career high 24 points in 82 games.
Does he no longer have a shot at being a top 6 winger?

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Old
08-11-2012, 11:37 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Except Yashin, Spezza are/were closer to franchise players than 1B centers. Hossa, Karlsson aren't fair comparisons either.. Mike Ribeiro, Mike Richards etc... are closer to 1B I'd say.

Not all great(1B or elite 2A) centers put up PPG at 21 years old, or even 23. And FFS he isn't even 23 yet...
Wrong again Trent.

I think the problem with you is you have no way of looking into the future or seeing potential, because the only thing you do is link us to barely related statistics of [insert irrelevant ******** here].

Cheers

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08-11-2012, 02:46 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Lol @ the massive overrating of Cowen in this thread.
I havent seen it... Sens fans just dont want to trade him for unknowns, I havent seen any massive demand from sens fans just that they dont want to give him away for garbage or nothing.

He has shown some very impressive tools, heavy shot, mean, mobile, athletic and he still hasnt filled out his 6'5 frame. He was the second highest rated d man in his draft until his knee surgery and just had a good rookie season for a guy that had his development stalled and is still adjusting to his body.

The sens are also seriously lacking a top 4 d man right now so trading one probably isnt a good idea.

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08-11-2012, 04:20 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
I havent seen it... Sens fans just dont want to trade him for unknowns, I havent seen any massive demand from sens fans just that they dont want to give him away for garbage or nothing.

He has shown some very impressive tools, heavy shot, mean, mobile, athletic and he still hasnt filled out his 6'5 frame. He was the second highest rated d man in his draft until his knee surgery and just had a good rookie season for a guy that had his development stalled and is still adjusting to his body.

The sens are also seriously lacking a top 4 d man right now so trading one probably isnt a good idea.


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08-11-2012, 04:55 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
I havent seen it... Sens fans just dont want to trade him for unknowns, I havent seen any massive demand from sens fans just that they dont want to give him away for garbage or nothing.

He has shown some very impressive tools, heavy shot, mean, mobile, athletic and he still hasnt filled out his 6'5 frame. He was the second highest rated d man in his draft until his knee surgery and just had a good rookie season for a guy that had his development stalled and is still adjusting to his body.

The sens are also seriously lacking a top 4 d man right now so trading one probably isnt a good idea.

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Old
08-11-2012, 05:13 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
There's still a chance he'll be a star, sure. Rundblad has some elite tools, and if he realizes his potential, he'll be a very good player.

Personally, I think he'll end up as a 2nd pairing offensive guy. I don't think his defense is ever going to be his best asset, and he doesn't think or play the game fast enough to be a premier offense first guy like Karlsson, Boyle, etc.

Still, a great result from a 17th overall pick.

Is there any reason you don't think Turris won't become a solid top 6 guy? He scored at the same pace as Van Riemsdyk and Voracek last year, two guys who were drafted in the same year and who many already consider good top 6ers.

I see no reason why Turris can't continue to develop into a solid, two way, 55-65 point centerman, ala Stephen Weiss. Basically, a perfect #2 behind Spezza.



Turris is 22 years old. He scored at a pace that over 82 games would put him at 49 points. And that was after missing training camp.

At this point, there's no reason to believe he can't become a solid #2 centerman. Has he developed as quickly as some would of liked? Probably not. But people usually have unrealistic expectations, even for top 5 picks. Not everyone will be a Crosby, Stamkos, Kane, etc.

Last year, Turris scored at the same pace as guys like Voracek, Van Riemsdyk and Okposo. All of those guys were drafted around the same point, and are pretty much the same age. I think everyone would agree that all 3 already are, or are well on their way, to becoming solid top 6ers. Heck, Voracek and Van Riemsdyk are pencilled in to be on their team's first lines. Why can't the same be said for Turris?

Personally, I think he ends up being a similar player to Stephen Weiss. Weiss didn't have his first good offensive season until he was 23 (when he notched 48 points), but has become a very good two way centerman, scoring 40+ points in each of the last 6 season, and 55+ points in 3 of those. I bet every team would love to have him anchoring their 2nd line, especially if they already had a premier guy like Spezza on line 1.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, particularly with regards to Rundblad. It's possible he becomes a top pairing defenseman though, but more likely (if he reaches potential) he'll be a 2nd pairing defenseman with strong offensive upside and helping the PP a ton.

I also do think Turris could become a solid 2nd line center, but I personally see his top end at around 55 points rather than 65 points like you suggest as a possibility.

I could be, and have been before, wrong but that's just what I see from him. He's also unfortunately a player who doesn't bring much other than points and strong defensive play to the table. Weak on faceoffs, skinny as hell, and an overall perimeter player. He's also very shy it seems which doesn't bode well for the lockerroom (doesn't hurt either, just don't think it adds anything).

We'll see though, personally I would much rather have kept Rundblad (potential top pairing defenseman, more probable 2nd pairing defenseman) and a 2nd round pick then a guy that I personally believe will top out at 55 points if everything works out.

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08-12-2012, 01:10 AM
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A very good offer. He is going to be scary. For kicks, I would offer Gardiner + Colborne from Leafs POV and I doubt Sens would pull the trigger.

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08-12-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
He turns 23yo on Tuesday.

Players drafted as high as he was are almost always producing producing around 21yo.

Heck, even slow progressing Bobby Ryan:
21yo = 57 pts in 64 gp.

If Turris were ever going to be a star, he would have shown it in his career by now. In juniors, US college hockey, the AHL, anywhere. He would have dominated somewhere. He never has and beyond the 3rd overall selection, I can't see anything in his career that says he'll be better than say... Vermette.



Voracek has the weight of 3 full seasons of proof behind him.
Van Reimsdyk has a season and half, plus the playoff run.
Turris has half of a season, while being stapled to Alfredsson... but only if we ignore the games that he played for Phoenix and to a lesser extent the postseason.



Did Weiss ever do that without 1st line center ice time? ... Nope.
Alfie was 60th in scoring with 59 points. Turris would never be able to get there without 1st unit PP time.



And a regular season pace of 43 points over 55 games.
A Senators pace of 47 points over 56 games.
A full year pace of 42 points over 62 games.

With many of those points coming within a short burst of 13 points in 16 games when he first joined Ottawa. The same exact kind of run he ha with Alfredsson as the one that Butler had with Spezza to finish 2010-11 (12 pts in his last 16 gp), when Butler was 23yo.

Oh, and Bobby Butler was on a 48 point pace in his half season worth of stats with Spezza.



#2 center like a Todd White or an Antoine Vermette? ... Sure, maybe.

Significantly more than that? ... No, I don't think so. What has he ever done in his entire life to separate himself from those guys?
Heck, at this point in his career; Havlat already has 42 (73gp), 50 (72gp) and 59 (67gp) point seasons under his belt.



Last year, Marcus Foligno scored at the same pace as Thornton, D.Sedin, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Hossa, Ericsson, E.Staal, Ribiero, Zetterberg, Parise and St.Louis.



Weiss is a penalty killer and face-off winner, Turris is neither right now.
Also, none of Weiss's career peaks happen if he hadn't have been used as a 1st line center. Not that he isn't a valuable player, but he's not putting up 55+ point seasons behind a Spezza. He's only been able to do it because he's been getting Spezza's minutes.



I question whether he'll ever be able to carry some of the players he'll have to on the 2nd line.



Really?

Alfredsson put up 61 points in 79 games last season. A 63 point pace.
Turris put up 32 points in 62 games last season. A 42 point pace.

Looks pretty significant to me. Looks like one of them would have been 44th in scoring and the other would have been 147th.
Holy SCHLAMOLY do you ever say anything??? This would have been annoying to come across in a "Useless Statistical Analysis of Turris" thread, let alone a Cowen trade thread. This reads like a Travis Yost post without actually having language behind it.

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08-12-2012, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lupes View Post
A very good offer. He is going to be scary. For kicks, I would offer Gardiner + Colborne from Leafs POV and I doubt Sens would pull the trigger.
Now this is a good offer, if Colbourne comes out flying next year I'd probably do it. No way TML realistically offers this, though, wouldn't ya say?

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08-12-2012, 09:09 AM
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Sens fans are placing his value based on his potential, not what he's actually done. So, naturally, it's going to seem like he's overrated.

Teams that have dman who are big, and can skate while possessing a mean streak aren't available for cheap. Hell, they're not even available for market value.

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08-12-2012, 09:18 AM
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To Ottawa:Jared Tinordi
3rd Rd 2013

To Montreal:Cowen


To Flyers:Cowen

To Ottawa:E.Wellwood
4th Rd 2013

To Calgary:Cowen

To Ottawa:Brodie
3Rd 2013

To Ny Islanders:Cowen

To Ottawa:Bailey

To Toronto:Cowen

To Ottawa:Jesse Blacker
2nd Rd 2013

The only one of these I'd consider is Tinordi, and only if you make that 3rd a 2nd or 1st. The rest of these, absolutely not. Josh Bailey? Are you freaking kidding me?

Cowen's values remains in his potential, and as with every other team whose players have more potential than they have value, they are NOT going to be moved. Period.

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08-12-2012, 09:22 AM
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Burke wont trade for Cowen. With Kadri still in the minors it would be admitting he made a mistake. Burke is too stubborn for that.

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08-12-2012, 11:12 AM
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A very good offer. He is going to be scary. For kicks, I would offer Gardiner + Colborne from Leafs POV and I doubt Sens would pull the trigger.
Maybe if we toss in Kessel and a 2013 1st, Murray might think twice about it. Its a steep price to pay but a generational talent like Cowen doesn't come along often. Still don't think it'd be enough from a Sens POV though.

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08-12-2012, 11:23 AM
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Maybe if we toss in Kessel and a 2013 1st, Murray might think twice about it. Its a steep price to pay but a generational talent like Cowen doesn't come along often. Still don't think it'd be enough from a Sens POV though.
You're correct. Throw in "We had this player rated first overall" Morgan Rielly, and the Sens will think about it.

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