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Old
08-10-2012, 12:17 PM
  #26
KingSalamon
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Originally Posted by mzappa View Post
Read the TNSE TPA - they keep all the money and its credited to your account for next year, or whenever hockey starts again.

brutal.
I thought the question was referring to the years of commitment. I have a three year commitment to season tickets, (I don't have my agreement with me at work but I'm certain it states 3 year and not 3 hockey seasons) so if there is no season does my commitment end after the third year?

Not planning on ending my commitment but the wording of the agreement may mean that year two is a wasted year in terms of the TPA.

As for my payment going toward next season/later start this season, I'm cool with that. I'll be paid up and not have to worry about coming up with the money. But it does make you wonder... if there is no season this year and in 2013-14 they apply the credit to your account will we have to pay the limited 3% increase (cost certainty that being a STH calls for)?? I would hope not.

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08-10-2012, 12:43 PM
  #27
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One thought about the CBA... could Gary be holding on to the Coyotes now and use them as leverage in CBA talks? He could threaten to dissolve the franchise and disperse the players etc. I can't see it happening but he could use it as a scare tactic.

It would mean the loss of 25 contracts or so... that's a lot of jobs gone.

Mind you, he's been holding on to Phoenix forever and must feel it needs to stay there for the future of the league or something.

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08-10-2012, 01:37 PM
  #28
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Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA WPG's Ron Hainsey just spoke on behalf of NHLPA, said he "absolutely" thinks a new deal can be done by September 15.
Retweeted by Leah Hextall

So.... Lynky... is Ron being real or just blowing smoke up our butts?

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08-10-2012, 01:56 PM
  #29
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I think all parties feel a deal can be done by September 15... unfortunately, I think all parties are referring to their own ideal deal.

The question should be: "Can both side come to a compromise and have a new agreement signed by September 15th."

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08-10-2012, 02:31 PM
  #30
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Since nothing prevents both sides from working under the old CBA while talks are ongoing, I wonder if the owners have considered, instead of an automatic lockout again, letting the players come to camp and letting them start the season and then threatening them with a lockout after the players have already put in a bunch of hard work. I guess that has the potential to alienate the fans even more than a lock out at the beginning of the season though.

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08-10-2012, 02:59 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videofarmer View Post
Since nothing prevents both sides from working under the old CBA while talks are ongoing, I wonder if the owners have considered, instead of an automatic lockout again, letting the players come to camp and letting them start the season and then threatening them with a lockout after the players have already put in a bunch of hard work. I guess that has the potential to alienate the fans even more than a lock out at the beginning of the season though.
Sounds like "no". In the TSN article in the first post, Gary basically said "we've told the PA for months if there's no deal by Sept 15 we're locking them out".

The sentiment I've heard is that most US owners would even prefer to lose a few games in Oct-Nov, since that's the hardest time for them to sell tickets. Jan 1 and the Winter Classic is really their drop-dead, so they can wait till then to try and break the players.

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08-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #32
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I don't see Bettman's confirmation of a lockout as any type of surprise. Why would the owners not use their hammer...players not getting pay checks. IMO it is a reasonable line in the sand to get something done. Overall things seem to be playing out much better than last time. The retoric is way down compared to 2004 and both sides actually seem to be trying to engage in the process. If the players come out with a well thought out counter proposal rather than posturing we might start seeing some movement. There is still plenty of time.

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Old
08-10-2012, 07:24 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I don't see Bettman's confirmation of a lockout as any type of surprise. Why would the owners not use their hammer...players not getting pay checks. IMO it is a reasonable line in the sand to get something done. Overall things seem to be playing out much better than last time. The retoric is way down compared to 2004 and both sides actually seem to be trying to engage in the process. If the players come out with a well thought out counter proposal rather than posturing we might start seeing some movement. There is still plenty of time.
Agreed, Tuesdays counter proposal will tell us a lot on how this will play out. Also people should take note on Fehr's history, he got the MLB owners to agree to start the season while still trying to negotiate a new deal only to call a strike during the season before the playoffs. The NHL is not going to fall for this tactic and are well within their rights to put a hard date on this.

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08-10-2012, 07:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by videofarmer View Post
Since nothing prevents both sides from working under the old CBA while talks are ongoing, I wonder if the owners have considered, instead of an automatic lockout again, letting the players come to camp and letting them start the season and then threatening them with a lockout after the players have already put in a bunch of hard work. I guess that has the potential to alienate the fans even more than a lock out at the beginning of the season though.
Vid, there was never a chance of this happening. The owners are not going to incur the cost of "opening up" and burning arena dates - only to try to use that as hope of leverage.

Also, there is the Don Fehr factor. They worked in Baseball one year without a collective agreement while they "negotiated", then Fehr led the players into a strike before the playoffs...

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08-10-2012, 08:31 PM
  #35
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Owners are morons

If the NHL suffers a 3rd lockout (without a strike) within 18 years then there is a serious problem with ownership.

The NHL just lost an entire season to get the system they wanted. Players get a fixed percentage of certain defined revenues. Note: Not all revenues are included in the formula.

Costs have not gone up by that much. Certainly not enough to warrant a risk of a lockout.

If any teams are losing money now then it is clear that the problem is that they are not earning their share of league revenue. This brings us to revenue sharing - an issue the owners could resolve amongst themselves without involving the players at all.

I would look for Fehr to put forward a revenue sharing proposal. That would surely place a fox in the owners' henhouse.

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Old
08-10-2012, 08:37 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Agreed, Tuesdays counter proposal will tell us a lot on how this will play out. Also people should take note on Fehr's history, he got the MLB owners to agree to start the season while still trying to negotiate a new deal only to call a strike during the season before the playoffs. The NHL is not going to fall for this tactic and are well within their rights to put a hard date on this.
Yes Fehr would pull the plug right before the playoffs two years from now and the owners can't risk that.....so they will pull the pin now and hope the players losing their regular paycheques will be enough to make them play ball before the New Year rolls around.

I think Garry is a snake but Fehr is what a snake leaves behind.....we are in trouble IMHO

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Old
08-10-2012, 11:15 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TCsmyth View Post
Vid, there was never a chance of this happening. The owners are not going to incur the cost of "opening up" and burning arena dates - only to try to use that as hope of leverage.

Also, there is the Don Fehr factor. They worked in Baseball one year without a collective agreement while they "negotiated", then Fehr led the players into a strike before the playoffs...
No, I saw that Bettman already set the lockout date. I just wondered if going thru the pain of training camp and the beginning of the season then threatening a lockout would break the players' unity quicker (like before the threat became reality). As you pointed out though the potential disadvantages for the owners are greater with that approach too. It's too bad they've already set the deadline since there is nothing that prevents them from operating under the current CBA while they continue to negotiate (if they feel like a deal can get done) and that would be most pleasing to their customers.

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08-11-2012, 07:38 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videofarmer View Post
No, I saw that Bettman already set the lockout date. I just wondered if going thru the pain of training camp and the beginning of the season then threatening a lockout would break the players' unity quicker (like before the threat became reality). As you pointed out though the potential disadvantages for the owners are greater with that approach too. It's too bad they've already set the deadline since there is nothing that prevents them from operating under the current CBA while they continue to negotiate (if they feel like a deal can get done) and that would be most pleasing to their customers.
As stated above, the owners have to not let the players play or else the players can just strike when it's most convenient for them and least convenient for the owners (ie right before playoffs when they stop getting paid). It would give away much too much power to the PA.

I am disheartened by the PA's lack of response the NHL's initial (albeit terrible as ALL first offers are) offer. Why are they not sitting down DAILY to hash something out. I just cannot for the life of me see why things like this must take until the last possible minute. After last lockout neither side should be doubting the other's resolve, we know both sides are willing to toss away an ENTIRE season, let's just get this ****ing thing done already.

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08-11-2012, 08:38 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I am disheartened by the PA's lack of response the NHL's initial (albeit terrible as ALL first offers are) offer. Why are they not sitting down DAILY to hash something out. I just cannot for the life of me see why things like this must take until the last possible minute. After last lockout neither side should be doubting the other's resolve, we know both sides are willing to toss away an ENTIRE season, let's just get this ****ing thing done already.
I am also a bit annoyed with the PA apparent laziness. I have a feeling that they're going to drag their feet quite a bit because they're confident that if there is a lock out public opinion will be heavily against the owners.

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Old
08-11-2012, 09:43 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
As stated above, the owners have to not let the players play or else the players can just strike when it's most convenient for them and least convenient for the owners (ie right before playoffs when they stop getting paid). It would give away much too much power to the PA.

I am disheartened by the PA's lack of response the NHL's initial (albeit terrible as ALL first offers are) offer. Why are they not sitting down DAILY to hash something out. I just cannot for the life of me see why things like this must take until the last possible minute. After last lockout neither side should be doubting the other's resolve, we know both sides are willing to toss away an ENTIRE season, let's just get this ****ing thing done already.


I see this a bit differently. The PA's response is for public consumption as the owners already have a pretty solid idea where the PA stands on the issues. I'm encouraged by the fact that both sides are actually meeting regularly and there seems to be a lot less hate going on, especially between Fehr and Bettman. If the PA's response is a moderate search for the middle ground I will be very encouraged.

I'm also encouraged that Fehr is reaching out to as many players as possible. Lost games will impact all players differently. Fringe players and vetrans late in their careers may never play again if a season is lost and if they do play again they will see very little benifit no matter what is negotiated. Often times the voice of a silent majority gets lost to the group think of the bargaining committee.

Like any other bargaining those who sign the pay-checks have the advantage, and from a Jet's fan perspective the better this turns out for owners the better off we will be.

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Old
08-11-2012, 09:49 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
As stated above, the owners have to not let the players play or else the players can just strike when it's most convenient for them and least convenient for the owners (ie right before playoffs when they stop getting paid). It would give away much too much power to the PA.

I am disheartened by the PA's lack of response the NHL's initial (albeit terrible as ALL first offers are) offer. Why are they not sitting down DAILY to hash something out. I just cannot for the life of me see why things like this must take until the last possible minute. After last lockout neither side should be doubting the other's resolve, we know both sides are willing to toss away an ENTIRE season, let's just get this ****ing thing done already.
The pressure of time is an interesting and dangerous (two sidded) weapon to wield and I am a bit suprised the PA is potentially pulling it out this early. We will have to see how detailed their response is but me thinks the gamesmanship is well under way. I find the process fascinating, I don't sense there is a hill to die on this time (for example trying to eliminate Gaurenteed contracts or the attempt to blow up the cap system) which means the battle will lie in the margins of an existing framework. seems like the deadline and threat of lost games is an unnessesary tool in the bag or at least one that would not have to be pulled out until later?

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08-11-2012, 10:32 AM
  #42
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I see this a bit differently. The PA's response is for public consumption as the owners already have a pretty solid idea where the PA stands on the issues. I'm encouraged by the fact that both sides are actually meeting regularly and there seems to be a lot less hate going on, especially between Fehr and Bettman. If the PA's response is a moderate search for the middle ground I will be very encouraged.
See, the thing is, I really don't think this is true right now. Obviously on player share and revenue calculation the PA is going to try to get as much as possible. But I don't think the NHL knows to what degree the PA will be willing to negotiate on the more subtle issues of maximum contract length, compensations distribution (including signing bonuses), ELC length and structure, RFA years, arbitration rules, etc.

My understanding is so far discussions between the NHL and the PA have focused on supplemental discipline and there hasn't really been much feeling out on any of the other details.

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Old
08-11-2012, 10:44 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
I am also a bit annoyed with the PA apparent laziness. I have a feeling that they're going to drag their feet quite a bit because they're confident that if there is a lock out public opinion will be heavily against the owners.
I am not sure public opinion counts for much anymore as far as "advantage" goes to one side or the other strategically speaking. since they are partners in HRR any impact the public distain has for either the owners or players (or most likely all the above) is shared as per the division of HRR.

I am not dissing the fans importance I just don't think the PR battle matters as far as "advantage" or leverage.


Last edited by ps241: 08-11-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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Old
08-11-2012, 11:35 AM
  #44
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See, the thing is, I really don't think this is true right now. Obviously on player share and revenue calculation the PA is going to try to get as much as possible. But I don't think the NHL knows to what degree the PA will be willing to negotiate on the more subtle issues of maximum contract length, compensations distribution (including signing bonuses), ELC length and structure, RFA years, arbitration rules, etc.

My understanding is so far discussions between the NHL and the PA have focused on supplemental discipline and there hasn't really been much feeling out on any of the other details.
I think we are talking about 2 different things. I don't believe the PA will throw a wild card into the mix. As it stands now the players would like the status quo and the owners would like to see a full range of player concessions as per their original proposal. It is working out the middle ground...what are deal breakers and on what issues will each side bend. Determining the revenue split is the key after that things like ELC contracts etc can be worked out.

Lets be honest the PA is in a concession bargaining position. All major issues are owner issues, the PA can tinker around the edges but that's about all.

Without a year of hockey the owners are still a bunch of rich guys with a wide range of business interests. They have a timeline measured by decades to make money off hockey. With or without hockey the owners will be rich until the day they die. Without a year of hockey a lot of current NHLer's will be looking for regular jobs. Players have a relatively small window to make money, without hockey as a group they are under educated jocks with a lack of job skills outside of hockey.

What we have going for us as fans is that the owners treat the business of hockey different than their other business interests. Most of them are willing to break even or not lose too much $ to enjoy their shinny toy.

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Old
08-11-2012, 01:59 PM
  #45
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I hope theres a lockout and thousands of people don't renew their season tickets in disgust.

cause then I'll move up in the waiting list

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Old
08-11-2012, 08:19 PM
  #46
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I hope theres a lockout and thousands of people don't renew their season tickets in disgust.
cause then I'll move up in the waiting list
Well...... at least 938

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Old
08-11-2012, 09:06 PM
  #47
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Don't see that happening in Winnipeg.

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Old
08-12-2012, 06:39 PM
  #48
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anyone else see that tweet by the NHLPA claiming Bettman was playing dirty?? thought that was a pretty bold statement to make by a verified twitter account of the NHLPA

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Old
08-12-2012, 07:06 PM
  #49
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It was a link to a news story of the same title. Still probably shouldn't post that, but it's not like they're outright claiming he's playing dirty.

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08-12-2012, 10:05 PM
  #50
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i liked their tweet for support. i tweeted them with alltheir hastags saying i support hockey in october.

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