IIHF World ChampionshipDiscuss International Tournaments like the WJC, Olympics, and World Cup, as they take place, or discuss past tournaments. performances.
answer to that question how many of the Canadian kids are in the NHL playing significant roles? ZERO to date. Shieffle has 7 games of NHL experience and 1 goal. That's it. Murray will play in the NHL next year and will play a significant role, but that's only because it's Columbus, the most dysfunctional franchise in the NHL, except for Phoenix, they are just dysfunctional in the business side of the game. HC believes 5 or maybe 6 will be in the NHL next year if there's isn't a lockout, but I really can't see any of them playing significant roles.
Huberdeau my play in Florida and get some good minutes...but a major role... I don't see it.... but we shall see.
I didn't mean this year, meant from 2-3 years ago. This year is too early to judge.
I didn't mean this year, meant from 2-3 years ago. This year is too early to judge.
Oh yes, the 90-91 and 92 born players in Canada were deep with offensive talent... Forwards, talented young forwards generally transition into the pro game much quicker than D-men. 93-94 born players in Canada there isn't a whole lot of Offensively gifted forwards, the best one Nugent-Hopkins, and yes he's already in the NHL and playing a significant role. 93-94 in Canada will be known as the years of the Defensemen. ))) We are waiting for the 95-96 and 97 Offensive talented forwards to catch up to the 93 and 94 D-men.
you are blind homer and completely wrong...the only reason they broke through (do I need to remind you the line Tarasenko played on in SKA and he was an established player already) is weakness of their teams at the time of break-through. You look at two most talented junior programs in the country (birth year 1995) - CSKA and Dinamo - how many spots do you think are there to be won? KHL is such, that a 35 year old out of shape veteran will get the place on the roster of a win-now team, over a talented junior, period and you have NO argument.
Explain how that differs from the NHL? If one NHL GM were to say "I'd rather postpone winning for a few years so that I can take the risk of developing unproven 19-year olds, so please be patient and keep paying $100 a night to watch my experiments," he would be fired before the press release hit the streets.
I'd love to see that, especially when meeting once in a short tournament like the Olympics (except Vancouver, of course) doesn't really prove anything. The best team will rise to the top in a long tournament.
I'm a hockey fan like you, and to be honest, the only thing that i really care about is if my team wins. So yesterday I was basically agreeing with espo, someguy and others about how ridiculous it seemed for Canada to take some of its key players out of the lineup. After thinking about it for a while, I might have to change my tune a bit, for he following:
1. As a "commemorative" 40th anniversary, this series is already discounted by the fact that it is a junior series, instead of a replication of the best players of any age in both countries, as in 1972.
2. It is an exhibition series that only conveys bragging rights. If Canada win this series and then loses the WJC, they have lost a World title but gained only bragging rights among fans like us who post on websites.
3. Assuming labor issues are solved, most of the best players, like Huberdeau and Murray and Yakupov, are unlikely to be available in Ufa, so it is more than just being politically correct to test players who are likely to actually be available in late December.
4. It tends to once again prove that it is easier in theory than in practice to stage a "best on best" tournament. There always seems to be reason why some of the best are not there.
After saying that, my real focus is on Russia finding a way to steal one in Canada.
ok if you don't understand figurative speech, i will explain better - the 95's saw what's ahead, see Monya, Kulemin, Begunts, Avtsyn, Korostin and others....Name me a team where it's talented prospect made it to the khl at a young age, got playing time and the team is competing: to me Petrov from ak bars comes to mind at the age of 22 he got his 3rd/4th line pt. Burmistrov/Mayorov had to leave.
I am not advocating for player to leave the country, I am advocating for restructuring the system though, in a way that will give them a chance.
Still, its hard to point to parallels in the NHL that show that there is a greater chance for quick success in the NHL for kids coming from Russia. Looking back over the past 3 or 4 years, I am unable to think of many guys who have come in and had a fast track to high impact in the NHL. Burmistrov went to Winnipeg, a lower rung team, and is scoring about 10 goals a year. Voynov, who has significant talent, didn't emerge in Los Angeles until this year, and he's an '89 born. The evidence still seems to suggest that the best chance to make it big in the NHL is to wait until 23-24 before coming over.
Best chance is on Monday night with our third stringer in net.
That could definitely help, but playing in Canada will be a totally different environment than Yaroslavl. Some of the kids on the Russian team haven't faced that kind of atmosphere or pressure before, so Varnakov is going to have to do a really good job preparing the team for what they will face. The Russians from the CHL should know what to expect. I just hope the team shows up and makes a good accounting for themselves, and if they should happen to steal one, that would be a huge accomplishment.
In the unlikely event that there may be some folks who aren't aware of it, the TSN website has the full games for Games 1 and 2 archived on their video player. They are high def and high quality, no commercials and easy to freeze and scroll back and forth. Since the stream sucked so bad, its possible some folks might want to go back and see what the games really looked like. Just go to www.tsn.ca, and click on "watch more on our video player" on the right side of the page. Once it takes you to the video player page, scroll down to "Hockey Canada Events on Display." It will display Games 1 and 2.
For those of you who are well aware of this feature, sorry to be redundant.
Now that the games move to Canada, for those of us who can't get TSN, any news on streams for the next two games? I would love it if there was a better stream avaiable.
Best chance is on Monday night with our third stringer in net.
I don't know if Brossoit is our 3rd stringer. I actually think he's number 2. But that's just my opinion. His numbers were excellent, 42 w 13 losses. a fair GAA and a good Save %. I would have gone with Subban in 3 games and give Brossoit the 4th game. But I never saw a whole lot of the Oil Kings play last year. ))) I'm more concerned that Spott doesn't scratch our 3 best D-men and one of our best forwards.
Anyone know which goalie will be starting for Russia next game?
I couldn't find anything on Russian hockey websites. I think Vasilevskiy will get another shot either Monday or Tuesday, but I haven't seen any statements from the coaching staff.
Still, its hard to point to parallels in the NHL that show that there is a greater chance for quick success in the NHL for kids coming from Russia. Looking back over the past 3 or 4 years, I am unable to think of many guys who have come in and had a fast track to high impact in the NHL. Burmistrov went to Winnipeg, a lower rung team, and is scoring about 10 goals a year. Voynov, who has significant talent, didn't emerge in Los Angeles until this year, and he's an '89 born. The evidence still seems to suggest that the best chance to make it big in the NHL is to wait until 23-24 before coming over.
I didn't say that...All I am trying to imply, that if you try to look at the situation with the eyes of a junior hockey player
his alternatives are:
1) sign a long term deal in the KHL
a) be an MHL player even though you have outgrown the league
b) be a VHL player and it's not often a case of Alshevskiy brother who got a lot of PT, could be a case of Chvanov with like 7 minutes a game on the bottom line
c) be a KHL player due to limit playing 2-5 shifts a game
There's never an easy transition from junior hockey, and talent will find a way, but sometimes you got to help the talent, not play kvasha's, arhipov, badyukov of the world over it
2) go to NA
a) play a year in the CHL show yourself get drafted spend a year or two in the minors (unless you are Ovechkin/Malkin) make it to the NHL
b)play a year in the CHL show yourself get drafted spend a year or two in the minors (unless you are Ovechkin/Malkin) not make it in the NHL be stuck in the AHL sign back in Russia be marketed as a returnee get a phat paycheck and a rsoter spot in the KHL
c) play a year in the CHL fail in the CHL or do a fair job not good enough to get drafted come back to Russia and still be marketed as a returnee and get his place back in the MHL
To them it seems going to NA is a dumb proof way of doing things...the fact that they can fall of the earth completely (see Korostin, Bashkirov bros) doesn't enter the mind of a teenager at all.
I didn't say that...All I am trying to imply, that if you try to look at the situation with the eyes of a junior hockey player
his alternatives are:
1) sign a long term deal in the KHL
a) be an MHL player even though you have outgrown the league
b) be a VHL player and it's not often a case of Alshevskiy brother who got a lot of PT, could be a case of Chvanov with like 7 minutes a game on the bottom line
c) be a KHL player due to limit playing 2-5 shifts a game
There's never an easy transition from junior hockey, and talent will find a way, but sometimes you got to help the talent, not play kvasha's, arhipov, badyukov of the world over it
2) go to NA
a) play a year in the CHL show yourself get drafted spend a year or two in the minors (unless you are Ovechkin/Malkin) make it to the NHL
b)play a year in the CHL show yourself get drafted spend a year or two in the minors (unless you are Ovechkin/Malkin) not make it in the NHL be stuck in the AHL sign back in Russia be marketed as a returnee get a phat paycheck and a rsoter spot in the KHL
c) play a year in the CHL fail in the CHL or do a fair job not good enough to get drafted come back to Russia and still be marketed as a returnee and get his place back in the MHL
To them it seems going to NA is a dumb proof way of doing things...the fact that they can fall of the earth completely (see Korostin, Bashkirov bros) doesn't enter the mind of a teenager at all.
I see your points, most of which I agree with. Young players riding the bench in the KHL is a big problem for a fact - if I am not mistaken, that was probably the primary reason the MHL was formed - to give the kids a chance to get some actual hockey experience instead of riding the pines. I like the fact that kids are exercising initiative and making the free choice to come to NA if they choose. My only concern is that kids don't understand the obstacles to be overcome to develop themselves fully. I think most kids are expected to come to the CHL as nearly finished products - Canadian kids have already been playing organized hockey for 10 or 11 years. I don't think they teach you HOW to play hockey in the CHL - you're supposed to already know how at that stage.
Even though CHL teams and the surrounding communities generally go overboard to welcome kids to the organization, there are still huge cultural barriers to overcome. Obviously, language is one. Malkin, for example, still speaks hardly any English. Sergei Zubov spent a long career in the NHL without learning to speak much English. Then there are factor of vastly different hockey styles and traditions. Kids are getting much better at the physical part of the game, but most of the guys drafted are finesse forwards. Those are my concerns, and I'd love to see more kids stay in the MHL, but its their choice and we can just wish them God speed.
I didn't say that...All I am trying to imply, that if you try to look at the situation with the eyes of a junior hockey player
his alternatives are:
1) sign a long term deal in the KHL
a) be an MHL player even though you have outgrown the league
b) be a VHL player and it's not often a case of Alshevskiy brother who got a lot of PT, could be a case of Chvanov with like 7 minutes a game on the bottom line
c) be a KHL player due to limit playing 2-5 shifts a game
There's never an easy transition from junior hockey, and talent will find a way, but sometimes you got to help the talent, not play kvasha's, arhipov, badyukov of the world over it
2) go to NA
a) play a year in the CHL show yourself get drafted spend a year or two in the minors (unless you are Ovechkin/Malkin) make it to the NHL
b)play a year in the CHL show yourself get drafted spend a year or two in the minors (unless you are Ovechkin/Malkin) not make it in the NHL be stuck in the AHL sign back in Russia be marketed as a returnee get a phat paycheck and a rsoter spot in the KHL
c) play a year in the CHL fail in the CHL or do a fair job not good enough to get drafted come back to Russia and still be marketed as a returnee and get his place back in the MHL
To them it seems going to NA is a dumb proof way of doing things...the fact that they can fall of the earth completely (see Korostin, Bashkirov bros) doesn't enter the mind of a teenager at all.
Nice said, but you wrote it kids choose junior level in Russia to the same junior level in Canada There is not so much gap between CHL and MHL. It would be another story if lets say Zadorov play NHL next season, but he wont. Dont agree with long term agreement in KHL, it is only 3 years, until kids are 20. Not big deal. You said kids outgrow MHL... who? Yakupov after rookie season? Grigorenko after rookie season? Other kids after rookie season? We dont know if they outgrow MHL Only Kucherov and Gusev outgrow it. Is any problem with releasing Kucherov to CHL? Is any problem with realising Kostenko to AHL? No it is. Managers and coaches of MHL, KHL clubs are not dumb. They know what is good for development of kids. Now VHL has limits for kids under 25 y old. It is no more pensioner league. Similar model like AHL. MHL is getting younger every season (reduction of overagers). Look at NHL, rosters include guys over 30y old. The same KHL rosters. Any difference? No. You dont play NHL at age of 18, only a few guys per season. The same in KHL. Yes, KHL has not so much young talent (18y) therefore numbers are not big.
"We work much harder in swedish juniors like in slovak juniors" Some slovak kid said after going to J20 SuperElit. I can see the same scenario with russian kids. They choose easier way - CHL. It is muuuuuch easier to earn a spot in junior league than in senior. We all know it. Why they dont work so hard in MHL to make a spot? Kuznetsov had to proof he deserved to play KHL. Orlov did the same. Not everyone can play high senior level at the age 17/18. It does not happen in NHL and in KHL as well. Therefore you have MHL to develop or VHL if you overgrow MHL. Agree, CSKA had not affiliate and it was mistake.
Btw did you read Ivan Barbashev interview? He said I wanted to play in Canada, he did not say "I overgrow MHL and wanted higher junior level" Yes, nothing is ideal in KHL but dont be blind... kids choose easier way, think they are superstars at 16. Talked to Rihard Bukarts and GM of Kapitan last season. Do you remember why he did not play some period of season? Attitude problems... I am star, I dont need to train hard.. to sum up. Would you call such player to KHL? Would you give him more ice time in KHL or MHL? It is not only about not trusting young kids in KHL, it is also about attitude and talent of kids.
Khokhlachev - ideal scenario of talented guy who chose wrong path. He left MHL after rookie season, he prove nothing in MHL before leaving. Play CHL, injured and played ZERO senior games in Canada. Now is in KHL to play seniors. Is it the greatest thing for his development to choose style of game, culture enviroment etc every season?
Khlopotov - projected as top player, left to CHL, back after one season. Any sense?
Goldobin - solid MHL rookie season, drafted by Kuznetsk in KHL, left to CHL... btw your scenario about weak club does not work. Where is problem? Does he want to work hard in Russia? Did he chose easier path?
KHL had 5y entry deal (after drafting), now it is changed to 3y. Kids need to play as much as possible until 20 and I see no difference among playing CHL or MHL, juniors as juniors.
To sum up, there are many reasons why kids refuse to sign khl entry contract, not only "no chance to play KHL". You know how agents work, you know how nhl works etc.
EDIT:
Compare amount of 95ers in MHL season 2011/12 and amount of 94ers in MHL season 10/11. Do you think 95ers did not get chance to develop in MHL? They could play kids hockey instead. Coaches knew they are talented, so gave them chance.
Nice said, but you wrote it kids choose junior level in Russia to the same junior level in Canada There is not so much gap between CHL and MHL. It would be another story if lets say Zadorov play NHL next season, but he wont. Dont agree with long term agreement in KHL, it is only 3 years, until kids are 20. Not big deal. You said kids outgrow MHL... who? Yakupov after rookie season? Grigorenko after rookie season? Other kids after rookie season? We dont know if they outgrow MHL Only Kucherov and Gusev outgrow it. Is any problem with releasing Kucherov to CHL? Is any problem with realising Kostenko to AHL? No it is. Managers and coaches of MHL, KHL clubs are not dumb. They know what is good for development of kids. Now VHL has limits for kids under 25 y old. It is no more pensioner league. Similar model like AHL. MHL is getting younger every season (reduction of overagers). Look at NHL, rosters include guys over 30y old. The same KHL rosters. Any difference? No. You dont play NHL at age of 18, only a few guys per season. The same in KHL. Yes, KHL has not so much young talent (18y) therefore numbers are not big.
"We work much harder in swedish juniors like in slovak juniors" Some slovak kid said after going to J20 SuperElit. I can see the same scenario with russian kids. They choose easier way - CHL. It is muuuuuch easier to earn a spot in junior league than in senior. We all know it. Why they dont work so hard in MHL to make a spot? Kuznetsov had to proof he deserved to play KHL. Orlov did the same. Not everyone can play high senior level at the age 17/18. It does not happen in NHL and in KHL as well. Therefore you have MHL to develop or VHL if you overgrow MHL. Agree, CSKA had not affiliate and it was mistake.
Btw did you read Ivan Barbashev interview? He said I wanted to play in Canada, he did not say "I overgrow MHL and wanted higher junior level" Yes, nothing is ideal in KHL but dont be blind... kids choose easier way, think they are superstars at 16. Talked to Rihard Bukarts and GM of Kapitan last season. Do you remember why he did not play some period of season? Attitude problems... I am star, I dont need to train hard.. to sum up. Would you call such player to KHL? Would you give him more ice time in KHL or MHL? It is not only about not trusting young kids in KHL, it is also about attitude and talent of kids.
Khokhlachev - ideal scenario of talented guy who chose wrong path. He left MHL after rookie season, he prove nothing in MHL before leaving. Play CHL, injured and played ZERO senior games in Canada. Now is in KHL to play seniors. Is it the greatest thing for his development to choose style of game, culture enviroment etc every season?
Khlopotov - projected as top player, left to CHL, back after one season. Any sense?
Goldobin - solid MHL rookie season, drafted by Kuznetsk in KHL, left to CHL... btw your scenario about weak club does not work. Where is problem? Does he want to work hard in Russia? Did he chose easier path?
KHL had 5y entry deal (after drafting), now it is changed to 3y. Kids need to play as much as possible until 20 and I see no difference among playing CHL or MHL, juniors as juniors.
To sum up, there are many reasons why kids refuse to sign khl entry contract, not only "no chance to play KHL". You know how agents work, you know how nhl works etc.
EDIT:
Compare amount of 95ers in MHL season 2011/12 and amount of 94ers in MHL season 10/11. Do you think 95ers did not get chance to develop in MHL? They could play kids hockey instead. Coaches knew they are talented, so gave them chance.
Wait,did Rihards Bukarts had attitude problems?This is shock to me.Can you elaborate more?
Last edited by BalticWarrior: 08-12-2012 at 04:01 AM.
To sum up cska78 post - it's just as hard to crack the KHL roster as the NHL and if there's no difference, kid might think that I might just as well try my luck in NA and fulfill my dream of playing in full arenas every game. And if they fail, there always be KHL/VHL/MHL to fall back upon.
On unrelated note, I hate when vorky tries to build his cases on quotes of some random players.
I hope you're right Yak, but I think they've already said the third-string goalie is playing Monday.
This what the roster for Monday's game should look like, but given that the coach is open to experimenting, it could be something different.
Any thoughts about the 3 on RW, Rattie, Monahan and Hudon... all 3 have to remain in the line-up, but in what order, who gets moved up or down based on performance in Yaroslavl? The only players who have stood out so far are Hudon and Subban. The rest have been either average or below average.
I thought Shinkaruk would be a lot better than what he's shown, but since he's an underager and his first taste of competition at this level, I'll cut him some slack!
I think Hockey Canada's concern that 6 of these players will be in the NHL and unavailable come Christmas time may be just a tad overblown! From what I've seen so far, Murray is the only one I'd say who will be unavailable. I'd give Huberdeau a shot at making Florida - 50/50. Nobody else on this current roster are sure fire bets to make any NHL team.
J Huberdeau M Scheiffle T Rattie
H Shinkaruk R Strome S Monahan
P Di Giuseppe P Danault C Hudon
L Lessio B Jenner L Sutter
13TH FORWARD B Leipsic
R Murray G Reinhart
D Hamilton M Reilly
C Ceci M Dumba
S Harrington
GOALIES
M Subban
And we already know that Subban doesn't get the start on Monday. )) Already behind the 8 ball.
This what the roster for Monday's game should look like, but given that the coach is open to experimenting, it could be something different.
Any thoughts about the 3 on RW, Rattie, Monahan and Hudon... all 3 have to remain in the line-up, but in what order, who gets moved up or down based on performance in Yaroslavl? The only players who have stood out so far are Hudon and Subban. The rest have been either average or below average.
I thought Shinkaruk would be a lot better than what he's shown, but since he's an underager and his first taste of competition at this level, I'll cut him some slack!
I think Hockey Canada's concern that 6 of these players will be in the NHL and unavailable come Christmas time may be just a tad overblown! From what I've seen so far, Murray is the only one I'd say who will be unavailable. I'd give Huberdeau a shot at making Florida - 50/50. Nobody else on this current roster are sure fire bets to make any NHL team.
J Huberdeau M Scheiffle T Rattie
H Shinkaruk R Strome S Monahan
P Di Giuseppe P Danault C Hudon
L Lessio B Jenner L Sutter
13TH FORWARD B Leipsic
R Murray G Reinhart
D Hamilton M Reilly
C Ceci M Dumba
S Harrington
GOALIES
M Subban
And we already know that Subban doesn't get the start on Monday. )) Already behind the 8 ball.
I have a feelng we won't see Reinhart again. It looked like he separated his shoulder in Game 1. At least it looked like he did the way he reacted after getting hit.
Rattie has played well IMO and is one of the few Canadian forwards who has looked dangerous. I can't see Danault playing Monday. He's been absolutely invisible. I know you don't like Wilson, but I see him playing and playing regularly with Leipsic on the smaller ice. Canada wasn't physical at all in Russia and that will change in Haifax.
I have a feelng we won't see Reinhart again. It looked like he separated his shoulder in Game 1. At least it looked like he did the way he reacted after getting hit.
Rattie has played well IMO and is one of the few Canadian forwards who has looked dangerous. I can't see Danault playing Monday. He's been absolutely invisible. I know you don't like Wilson, but I see him playing and playing regularly with Leipsic on the smaller ice. Canada wasn't physical at all in Russia and that will change in Haifax.
Ya, I'm not a Wilson fan. )) and I forgot Reinhart didn't dress on Friday due to an injury. Didn't see the game, and as of yet haven't watched it on TSN's site. Maybe I'll do that this morning. Maybe reassess a little. ))) The boys are back in Hali, long flight but seem to be in good spirits... Wilson's only complaint about Russia was ordering Subway for lunch... and I can fully appreciate that as I had a bad experience with a Subway sandwich in St. Petersburg a few years ago.
Kapustin - Pleasant surprise. Reminds me of Avangard's Sergei Kalinin (2011 WJC).
Slepyshev - Love this kid. Smart, steady 2-way play with nice offensive ability.
Grigorenko - Obviously not NHL ready yet. Really needs to pick up the intensity every shift. A LOT of tools to work with however.
Shalunov - Dominant one shift, invisible the next. Kid has talent and size though.
Kosov - Not sold on his offensive upside, but has everything else (stickhandling, size, speed, grit, 2-way). Very valuable player for this team.
Prokhorkin - Disappointing so far.
Zlobin, Tkachev, Sigarev - Flashes of nice talent. Good complimentary-type players.
Khammatov, Romantsev - Solid energy guys, but not much else.
Naumenkov/Sergeev - Steady pairing so far.
Nesterov/Yarullin - What's up with Nesterov? He's been awful.
Pedan/Vasilevsky - Yikes!! (all I'm gonna say)
Dyakov/Osipov - Relatively solid. Dyakov has some talent.
I like the size, physicality and depth of the forwards....the offensive leaders need to step up though. And as expected, the D-core has shown itself to have problems getting the puck out of the zone.
I hope we see Tverdokhlebov and Shmelev in Canada.
I don't really get the conclusions by some russian posters that the CHL has ruined Grigorenko, look no further than KHL player Prokhorkin who has been absolutely invisible, now tell me which North American league ruined his development? Player development is individual the Russians are much more physical than they used to be I do not feel CHL can greatly affect player development of the new generation of Russian players compared to the old ones.
