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Team was/is still rebuilding, that's why they were at cap floor. In couple years we are gonna need that cap-space when Landeskog, Varlamov, Johnson get even bigger deals etc.
Colorado's management is being smart and not wasting money around.
Stop trying to confuse him.
This kind of player management doesn't make a lot of sense. The AVS needed to spend a lot of money on complimentary players over the past 2-3 years to STILL not make the playoffs and be in worse shape cap-wise, for the future. With the likes of Martin, Leino and Carle taking up a lot of cap space, re-signing our core would be more of a challenge and then we'd be FORCED to trade some of our better younger players TO THE LEAFS.
AT LEAST, we wouldn't be a cheap, budget team though. The Avs SHOULD be trying to be a top-10 team in terms of total salary and still MISS the playoffs like Calgary and Columbus. THEN, we'd be in great shape.
How much do you think O'Reilly is being paid? The guy does not need to worry about money. He owns the Nuggets and owns a lage amount of the team Arensal. The guy is not worried at all.
Last year's budget near the cap floor indicates otherwise.
Rich people don't become and stay that way by making poor business decisions.
Based on your ridiculous point-of-view, we should only have 5 or 6 teams that aren't at the cap. NHL owners for the most part have net worth's well beyond their franchise value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goulet17
The Kroenkes routinely spent $65 million annually on the Avs for years. With a combined net worth in the $7 billion range, there is no reason to doubt that they would spend to keep young players the organization has publicly identified as part of its core.
I just don't see a realistic scenario where the Avs don't match an offer sheet for O'Reilly. I think people are trying too hard if they think it is even a remote possibility.
That's when they were perpetual deep playoff teams who packed the building every night. That's not reality anymore.
Reality is -- they were a near-floor team the year after they went 1 round in the playoffs. No reason to think they'll be substantially more than that when their performance decreased.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche
Team was/is still rebuilding, that's why they were at cap floor. In couple years we are gonna need that cap-space when Landeskog, Varlamov, Johnson get even bigger deals etc.
Colorado's management is being smart and not wasting money around.
The whole "stay at the cap floor because you're rebuidling" story is a load of crap. A GM is going to ice the best team he can every given year, which means spending his budget, if he doesn't, he should be fired immediately. This is a business about winning. The whole rebuilding argument just means that you don't commit to long term deals that don't make sense.
Last edited by seanlinden: 08-12-2012 at 02:17 AM.
The whole "stay at the cap floor because you're rebuidling" story is a load of crap. A GM is going to ice the best team he can every given year, which means spending his budget, if he doesn't, he should be fired immediately. This is a business about winning. The whole rebuilding argument just means that you don't commit to long term deals that don't make sense.
So Sherman is dumb for not signing mediocre players just to spend up to the budget (FYI Avs made offers to Parise and Suter) and at the same time he's smart for not making non-sensical FA signings?
So Sherman is dumb for not signing mediocre players just to spend up to the budget (FYI Avs made offers to Parise and Suter) and at the same time he's smart for not making non-sensical FA signings?
Exactly this. Except for a handful of players, most of the UFAs are mediocre. The Avs are doing a good job keeping their RFAs low. Don't see how that's a bad thing. The Jones signing tells me they're willing to spend some money to retain players, which we needed to see after the Flash offseason.
So Sherman is dumb for not signing mediocre players just to spend up to the budget (FYI Avs made offers to Parise and Suter) and at the same time he's smart for not making non-sensical FA signings?
No, he's dumb for not trading one of his good centres for overpaid mediocre players other GMs have signed.
To Colorado: Kadri, 2013 1st, Mccarthur
To Toronto: Statsny
__________________
Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
The whole "stay at the cap floor because you're rebuidling" story is a load of crap. A GM is going to ice the best team he can every given year, which means spending his budget, if he doesn't, he should be fired immediately. This is a business about winning. The whole rebuilding argument just means that you don't commit to long term deals that don't make sense.
Hahahaha hilarious.
I didn't know Jay Feaster was actually on these boards posting as a Leafs fan.
How is SPENDING to the cap and not making the playoffs working out for you??
The Avs don't want to be a perennial playoff bubble team and most reasonable posters here would agree that they are rebuilding and doing things the RIGHT WAY to build a winner and consistent SC contender. If you can't (or won't) see that, then there is NO helping you.
You keep believing that you have all the right answers and all the 'inside' financial information on players & individual team budgets and everyone else will continue to NOT take your posts seriously.
So Sherman is dumb for not signing mediocre players just to spend up to the budget (FYI Avs made offers to Parise and Suter) and at the same time he's smart for not making non-sensical FA signings?
If Sherman iced a team that was less than his best, then yes, he's a disgrace to the sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender
Hahahaha hilarious.
I didn't know Jay Feaster was actually on these boards posting as a Leafs fan.
How is SPENDING to the cap and not making the playoffs working out for you??
The Avs don't want to be a perennial playoff bubble team and most reasonable posters here would agree that they are rebuilding and doing things the RIGHT WAY to build a winner and consistent SC contender. If you can't (or won't) see that, then there is NO helping you.
You keep believing that you have all the right answers and all the 'inside' financial information on players & individual team budgets and everyone else will continue to NOT take your posts seriously.
When you throw out the idea of intentionally losing for a better draft pick, because if done, a GM should be fired on the spot, what do you think is the benefit of being a floor team?
Reality is -- the Avs were a floor team because that's what their level of fan support and reasonable financial management dictated. You can talk all day about how some teams regret their UFA signings, but for a team that ended up having close to $15m in cap space last year, regrets simply are not possible if you had that $15m in the budget. Even this year, they've got $16m, so if ownership is in fact willing to burn money on the Avs, then why was Cody McLeod playing instead of Ville Leino or a guy like Erik Cole?
There is no doubt as to who's the better player, and the salary cap is a non-issue for the Avs. You may say that Leino would interfere with the Avs ability to sign their young guns, well, a quick look at the salary charts would tell you that the only way that's the case is if in fact their budget is well below the cap.
If Sherman iced a team that was less than his best, then yes, he's a disgrace to the sport.
When you throw out the idea of intentionally losing for a better draft pick, because if done, a GM should be fired on the spot, what do you think is the benefit of being a floor team?
Reality is -- the Avs were a floor team because that's what their level of fan support and reasonable financial management dictated. You can talk all day about how some teams regret their UFA signings, but for a team that ended up having close to $15m in cap space last year, regrets simply are not possible if you had that $15m in the budget. Even this year, they've got $16m, so if ownership is in fact willing to burn money on the Avs, then why was Cody McLeod playing instead of Ville Leino or a guy like Erik Cole?
There is no doubt as to who's the better player, and the salary cap is a non-issue for the Avs. You may say that Leino would interfere with the Avs ability to sign their young guns, well, a quick look at the salary charts would tell you that the only way that's the case is if in fact their budget is well below the cap.
So you're arguing we should have Leino instead of McLeod? We should give up the physical presence and pay 3 extra million longterm for someone to play 10 minutes a game?
Now you're going to say, no he would have played more minutes than that and.... but we have specific roles to fill. Our fourth line will play 10 minutes at maximum because we have 3 centers capable of playing 20 minutes a night as a scoring threat. Any suggestion that our 4th liner should be paid like Leino just further demonstrates how outside the box you think. (I mean where is that box for goodness sake?)
If Sherman iced a team that was less than his best, then yes, he's a disgrace to the sport.
Not the case. Sherman iced a young team where players were restricted to their salary due to the rookie cap. He gave ice time to young players so they can grow and develop and become better than the UFAs. Sherman has also made moves for UFAs in Hejda, Pareanteau, when they were needed to plug a position of need.
Hes not going to make a move for a player that gets in the way of our young players. You don't build a team with only free agents, you start off with building a foundation with our young players. Hence why Sherman is never going to lose O'Reilly (so stop dreaming about him), because hes a young stud we developed.
So you're arguing we should have Leino instead of McLeod? We should give up the physical presence and pay 3 extra million longterm for someone to play 10 minutes a game?
Now you're going to say, no he would have played more minutes than that and.... but we have specific roles to fill. Our fourth line will play 10 minutes at maximum because we have 3 centers capable of playing 20 minutes a night as a scoring threat. Any suggestion that our 4th liner should be paid like Leino just further demonstrates how outside the box you think. (I mean where is that box for goodness sake?)
If like you said the budget is greater than the cap for Colorado -- absolutely. McLeod played so little because that's all he was worthy of playing. Leino is a superior player, would've found his way to the wing that he's perfectly capable of playing, and helped get the Avs closer to the playoffs more than McLeod, simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure
Not the case. Sherman iced a young team where players were restricted to their salary due to the rookie cap. He gave ice time to young players so they can grow and develop and become better than the UFAs. Sherman has also made moves for UFAs in Hejda, Pareanteau, when they were needed to plug a position of need.
Hes not going to make a move for a player that gets in the way of our young players. You don't build a team with only free agents, you start off with building a foundation with our young players. Hence why Sherman is never going to lose O'Reilly (so stop dreaming about him), because hes a young stud we developed.
Yeah, and he did that all while leaving $15m of talent on the table If he had the budget to do so, he would've complimented those young players to a much greater degree than he did last year, and as a result he probably would've gotten those young players the much needed playoff experience.
Yeah, and he did that all while leaving $15m of talent on the table If he had the budget to do so, he would've complimented those young players to a much greater degree than he did last year, and as a result he probably would've gotten those young players the much needed playoff experience.
If only being a GM was so easy and you can just easily make use of that 15 million dollars and get back all quality players. In reality, all you're gonna do is getting into bid wars and inflate player contracts even more.
You're basically suggesting that if we can spend, we must spend, who cares about the long term consequences. I'm glad Sherman is not that stupid. I'd rather keep that 15 million for either our core or for a player thats actually worth it in UFA. I'd rather overpay for a star than overpay for a role player.
But please, tell Burke to keep giving up 5 million dollar per year contracts to the likes to Komisarek and Connolly, cause theres clearly no consequences in spending frivolously. The Leafs still have 9 million dollars in cap space, whats burke thinking?? He should be giving away all of that right away before its too late!
If only being a GM was so easy and you can just easily make use of that 15 million dollars and get back all quality players. In reality, all you're gonna do is getting into bid wars and inflate player contracts even more.
You're basically suggesting that if we can spend, we must spend, who cares about the long term consequences. I'm glad Sherman is not that stupid. I'd rather keep that 15 million for either our core or for a player thats actually worth it in UFA. I'd rather overpay for a star than overpay for a role player.
But please, tell Burke to keep giving up 5 million dollar per year contracts to the likes to Komisarek and Connolly, cause theres clearly no consequences in spending frivolously. The Leafs still have 9 million dollars in cap space, whats burke thinking?? He should be giving away all of that right away before its too late!
So what??? Getting into bidding wars shows your serious about icing a competitive team. If the Avs budget is in excess of the cap, what do they care? They've got $15m in space!
I'm telling you that if you can spend, you absolutely do it, because there is a positive correlation between money spent and success on the ice. In the case of the Avs who are a rebuilding team, all that means is that you spend in such a fashion that it doesn't impact you down the road.
The fact that you keep referring to Connolly as a bad contract shows just how little you know. Toronto needed a centre and they got one with basically zero risk. He was the best centre available to the Leafs last year, and they gave up nothing for him. As you mentioned, Toronto has $9m in cap space this year, how the heck is Connolly hurting them??? Even with Komisarek, his salary has become a non-issue to Toronto. The biggest problem with that deal was that after an injury riddled 1/2 season, they decided to abandon making use of him and traded for Phaneuf.
As for Burke's $9m in space, he should absolutely spend it upgrading where he can. That means a goaltender, centre, and shutdown dman.
I think you are making this sound easier than it actually is. Do you know exactly what Colorado is doing? Do you know who they offered?
See... it's not as easy as everyone believes it is. Players choose what team they want to go to and it's as easy as an agent saying "No... we aren't going to Colorado."
And then you are saying spend even if it's a bad contract, but I bet you as soon as someone signs for an outrageous deal, you will criticize their GM for the insane move. If every team spends up to the cap, then you would have outrageous contracts going out left/right that drive up the market for other players. It's not always the best example of what to do.
We all need to recognize the GM job is not as easy as playing it online. These guys do work very hard and the negotiations aren't as easy as we believe. A lot goes into it.
So what??? Getting into bidding wars shows your serious about icing a competitive team. If the Avs budget is in excess of the cap, what do they care? They've got $15m in space!
I'm telling you that if you can spend, you absolutely do it, because there is a positive correlation between money spent and success on the ice. In the case of the Avs who are a rebuilding team, all that means is that you spend in such a fashion that it doesn't impact you down the road.
The fact that you keep referring to Connolly as a bad contract shows just how little you know. Toronto needed a centre and they got one with basically zero risk. He was the best centre available to the Leafs last year, and they gave up nothing for him. As you mentioned, Toronto has $9m in cap space this year, how the heck is Connolly hurting them???
As for Burke's $9m in space, he should absolutely spend it upgrading where he can. That means a goaltender, centre, and shutdown dman.
Higher spending teams do not necessarily spend money on UFAs, they typically spend on their own core players. The bulk of their salary are usually on the players they developed like Malkin, Crosby, Letang. The Avs players are not near their UFA years yet or haven't hit their potential so they are not at the cap limit. But it doesn't mean they won't need raises in the future. We can't be stuck with the Connollys and Komisareks of the world at that time. UFAs were obtained (Hejda and PAP) to plug holes where we don't have the youngsters to take. But we're not going to hinder any player's growth with UFAs just to win a couple of games a year, we're looking at the long term picture.
But I guess the Leafs should just sell their farm for Luongo's 10 year contract and then spend the rest on another UFA.
I think you are making this sound easier than it actually is. Do you know exactly what Colorado is doing? Do you know who they offered?
See... it's not as easy as everyone believes it is. Players choose what team they want to go to and it's as easy as an agent saying "No... we aren't going to Colorado."
And then you are saying spend even if it's a bad contract, but I bet you as soon as someone signs for an outrageous deal, you will criticize their GM for the insane move. If every team spends up to the cap, then you would have outrageous contracts going out left/right that drive up the market for other players. It's not always the best example of what to do.
We all need to recognize the GM job is not as easy as playing it online. These guys do work very hard and the negotiations aren't as easy as we believe. A lot goes into it.
If you have $15m in budget space -- you find a way to spend it. Ville Leino at $7m contributes more to success on the ice than Cody McLeod at $1.1m and $5.9m in cap space.
I don't criticize deals that make sense for the team involved. When a young team signs a veteran player to a term that makes absolutely no sense then I criticize, but if Colorado does in fact have $15m in budget space, then there is no room for criticism on shorter term deals. Heck, the Avs were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year -- if they had $15m in budget space, why not sign Alex Semin to a $8m deal? How's that going to hurt them long term???
If like you said the budget is greater than the cap for Colorado -- absolutely. McLeod played so little because that's all he was worthy of playing. Leino is a superior player, would've found his way to the wing that he's perfectly capable of playing, and helped get the Avs closer to the playoffs more than McLeod, simple as that.
Yeah, and he did that all while leaving $15m of talent on the table If he had the budget to do so, he would've complimented those young players to a much greater degree than he did last year, and as a result he probably would've gotten those young players the much needed playoff experience.
Leino isn't a superior player in the role that McLeod was being placed. Every team needs a guy who can put a hit on the opposing defense and drop the gloves. Leino isn't going to bring that. That aside, the most obvious reason that Leino was an obvious non-fit was because of the length of contract. Sure the Avs can afford that this year, but how about after the new CBA? What about when the new contracts are due for our youngsters? What if for example his 50 point season (the only one above 10 points) was a fluke and he followed it up with say a whopping 7 goals and 25 points in 70 games the next year? Then was he worth not being able to sign Parenteau to a better contract? You need to start developing more complex thoughts. Perhaps read a Socratic method for dummies or something of the sort.
If you have $15m in budget space -- you find a way to spend it. Ville Leino at $7m contributes more to success on the ice than Cody McLeod at $1.1m and $5.9m in cap space.
I don't criticize deals that make sense for the team involved. When a young team signs a veteran player to a term that makes absolutely no sense then I criticize, but if Colorado does in fact have $15m in budget space, then there is no room for criticism on shorter term deals. Heck, the Avs were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year -- if they had $15m in budget space, why not sign Alex Semin to a $8m deal? How's that going to hurt them long term???
Leino isn't a superior player in the role that McLeod was being placed. Every team needs a guy who can put a hit on the opposing defense and drop the gloves. Leino isn't going to bring that. That aside, the most obvious reason that Leino was an obvious non-fit was because of the length of contract. Sure the Avs can afford that this year, but how about after the new CBA? What about when the new contracts are due for our youngsters? What if for example his 50 point season (the only one above 10 points) was a fluke and he followed it up with say a whopping 7 goals and 25 points in 70 games the next year? Then was he worth not being able to sign Parenteau to a better contract? You need to start developing more complex thoughts. Perhaps read a Socratic method for dummies or something of the sort.
It doesn't matter -- Leino would've been placed in a bigger role and contributed more to their success. He wouldn't have impacted their ability to retain any of the young guys or get Parenteau because they still have $15m in space with only O'Reilly to resign. If 6 years didn't work, you give him more money on a shorter term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure
Why didn't Toronto do it?
Toronto was a top 10 scoring team who's biggest issue up front is size, and who needs to spend the $9m on other positions.
Toronto was a top 10 scoring team who's biggest issue up front is size, and who needs to spend the $9m on other positions.
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Dump Komisarek+Lombardi in the minors and you get an extra 7 mill. Still would have 9 mill left for that Luongo 10 year deal since you might as well spend it all right?
While I would have given Semin a short term deal, there were probably other issues that deterred a lot of teams, not just Colorado.
It doesn't matter -- Leino would've been placed in a bigger role and contributed more to their success. He wouldn't have impacted their ability to retain any of the young guys or get Parenteau because they still have $15m in space with only O'Reilly to resign. If 6 years didn't work, you give him more money on a shorter term.
Toronto was a top 10 scoring team who's biggest issue up front is size, and who needs to spend the $9m on other positions.
And Colorado needs its Cap Space for other players and positions as well. Lieno on the fourth line would not have had enough ice time to help out the team more the McLeod.
Dump Komisarek+Lombardi in the minors and you get an extra 7 mill. Still would have 9 mill left for that Luongo 10 year deal since you might as well spend it all right?
While I would have given Semin a short term deal, there were probably other issues that deterred a lot of teams, not just Colorado.
Komisarek became a valuable member of our team the day we traded Luke Schenn.... at this point he'd be more valuable to us than Semin because he's a shutdown dman and we have plenty of wingers who can score.
There's no room and no need for Semin when you consider the $6m required for a goalie, $3-5m for a defenceman, a centre, and the fact that Kulemin/JvR/Lupul/Kessel hold more value to the Leafs as top 6 wingers because of their size (and dominance in the case of Kessel). And that's fine -- scoring isn't our issue.
In Colorado scoring is the issue, what's your excuse?
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Originally Posted by RoytoSakic
And Colorado needs its Cap Space for other players and positions as well. Lieno on the fourth line would not have had enough ice time to help out the team more the McLeod.
Komisarek became a valuable member of our team the day we traded Luke Schenn.... at this point he'd be more valuable to us than Semin because he's a shutdown dman and we have plenty of wingers who can score.
There's no room and no need for Semin when you consider the $6m required for a goalie, $3-5m for a defenceman, a centre, and the fact that Kulemin/JvR/Lupul/Kessel hold more value to the Leafs as top 6 wingers because of their size. And that's fine -- scoring isn't our issue.
In Colorado scoring is the issue, what's your excuse?
LOL Komisarek is a more valuable player to the Leafs than Semin? You've just argued your self into a corner with that one.
In Colorado, scoring was not the issue. We have plenty of talented offensive wingers, but switched to a much more conservative play style. Instead of running and gunning like the Leafs, our forwards actually back check which is not exactly Semin's strength. And like I said, while I would have loved to acquire Alex Semin, there were 29 other teams that didn't give Semin a good offer, and a lot of them need him more than we do.
But I guess Komisarek being too valuable to dump in the minors while playing bottom pairing minutes at 5 mill is a better "excuse".
