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Trade Buff for ___ (all Byfuglien trade talk HERE)

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Old
08-10-2012, 01:57 PM
  #101
garret9
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Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
So it sounds like you are saying that I under-estimated Buffs value? Okay, weather you want to trade him or not, throw me a couple of buff trades that YOU think are fair value.
Can't speak for Truck but I've just never been down on the whole armchair gm from a trading angle, because realistically a trade takes more indepth knowledge of everything beyond most of our combined knowledge here is involved. You need to know about other teams needs, wants and have relationships with the GM. Your need has to match the other teams position of strength and vice versa. You also have to know the position of both teams in their goals (rebuilding, contending, next step, etc) and their managements belief structure. Remember Chevy is only into trades if it "upgrades without mortgaging the future." Also, rarely does one gain from trade, but merely changes something to something else. There is just so much involved more than value.

Although righty defense is a position of strength for us in the prospect pool, it's mostly in distant future with Redmond, Postma, and Trouba only legitimately pushing for top minutes in the future. We're a team that is trying to push to the next level while not having excess pieces really in any area (other than maybe prospects for 3/4th line depth forwards).

The only trades I can typically see happening are picks and/or prospects in an area we have excess (mostly depth forwards) for:
*Lefty PK specialist who can log big and tough minutes (but may be better found within Hainsey developing into his new role or Clitsome being rounded or perhaps 2013 FA)
*LW 4th liner (which would more likely be better found from waiver pickup)
*A prospect that fits the Jets/TNSE needs better


Last edited by garret9: 08-10-2012 at 03:40 PM. Reason: terrible grammar mistake
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Old
08-10-2012, 02:16 PM
  #102
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A few posters on here have done some rather detailed stats work on Buff's performance last season. Unless I completely misread those posts I took away from them that both GF and GA were favorable for the Jets when he was on the ice. The gaps we create by moving Buff are relatively difficult to replace via lateral trade, let alone to acquire more prospects or depth players. I sure hope we're not in rebuild mode.

At the start of last TC, Noel called Buff "one of the stallions in the stable". Why move a guy like that? Hypothetically, yes, if we're acquiring a franchise center like Duchene but that makes drafting Scheifele redundant (plus that trade is not realistic to begin with, imo). Some of the other proposals made seem like they were done in jest. Buff is not Sheldon Souray 2.0, he's Byfuglien 1.0 and pretty key for continued improvement/success of the Jets.

I think you need to keep Buff and if he is ever traded then hopefully it's part of a blockbuster trade. I actually see Buff playing out his contract in Winnipeg. Attitude definitely isn't a problem, if there's one guy who will tip for his food it's this guy.

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08-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I will not as I don't think it would be wise to trade him and I find hypothetical trades about players that aren't known to be on the trade block to be a waste of time.
FYI, this is chat forum for opinions, discussions and speculation. If you think THIS is a waste of time, why do you partake in these forums in any capacity? Discussing factual information is equally a waste of time then. Cause all you're doing is submitting your opinion about something that you can't change or influence anyway.

But yet you didn't feel it to be a waste of time to sit down and reply to me that discussing players NOT on the block is a waste of time?


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 08-10-2012 at 04:39 PM. Reason: cool it with the personal shots
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08-10-2012, 03:12 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
FYI, this is chat forum for opinions, discussions and speculation. If you think THIS is a waste of time, why do you partake in these forums in any capacity? Discussing factual information is equally a waste of time then. Cause all you're doing is submitting your opinion about something that you can't change or influence anyway.

But yet you didn't feel it to be a waste of time to sit down and reply to me that discussing players NOT on the block is a waste of time?
To each there own.

I am comfortable talking about things that I know or wanna know, not about things that I have no knowledge base in. Hockey talk to me is about conversation / info gathering / interest. I personally don't find random trade ___ for ___ talk to be particularly interesting, thus I don't dedicate time to them.

Might be different if I know the Jets and ___ are in talks. Might be different if a player is a pending UFA, but I won't spend time thinking up scenerios to move a player that I don't think will be moved and that I don't want moved.

You are welcome to think up hypothetical Buff trades, but I will not. Nothing personal, please don't take it that way.


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 08-10-2012 at 04:38 PM. Reason: qep
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Old
08-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
FYI, this is chat forum for opinions, discussions and speculation. If you think THIS is a waste of time, why do you partake in these forums in any capacity? Discussing factual information is equally a waste of time then. Cause all you're doing is submitting your opinion about something that you can't change or influence anyway.

But yet you didn't feel it to be a waste of time to sit down and reply to me that discussing players NOT on the block is a waste of time?
You're right, this is the place for people to CHOOSE to discuss such things. Choose being the operative word.

I love talking about our players and using stats and factual information to better understand the role they play on our team, and what sort of players might be required to help, and eliminate certain weaknesses (as represented in statistics).

These are representations I can see. I can extrapolate what players would potentially help my team. It's like solving a puzzle.

Unfortunately, mock trades are a puzzle that can't be solved or even inferred upon with even an illusion of accuracy because, as Garret mentioned, the number of unknowns are too high.

Yes we can infer what players on our team may suit a deficiency of another team, but there's a lot more that goes into the decisions then just that (see garrets post as I think it covers the major basis).

Statistically, removing Byfuglien would cause tremendous harm to this teams performance. We could look at numbers and Infer what type of return we would like (a dman who's stats are slightly worse then his and something of similar value to make up the difference?) but even then it doesn't seem necessary, as there is not really a big enough hole anywhere else to justify shifting some of Byfugliens "value" out of his position and into another location.


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 08-10-2012 at 04:39 PM. Reason: qep
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08-10-2012, 05:14 PM
  #106
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Either way, Buff seems like a guy that feeds off the energy of the crowd, abd he has a NTC/NMC or w/e. I doubt he goes anywhere. Besides we have alot of really good boating around the area...

Why would he leave?

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08-10-2012, 06:59 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
To each there own.

I am comfortable talking about things that I know or wanna know, not about things that I have no knowledge base in. Hockey talk to me is about conversation / info gathering / interest. I personally don't find random trade ___ for ___ talk to be particularly interesting, thus I don't dedicate time to them.

Might be different if I know the Jets and ___ are in talks. Might be different if a player is a pending UFA, but I won't spend time thinking up scenerios to move a player that I don't think will be moved and that I don't want moved.

You are welcome to think up hypothetical Buff trades, but I will not. Nothing personal, please don't take it that way.
I just find it humorous that many posters on these forums will write paragraph after paragraph about how a particular post or mentioned scenario is "totally ridiculous " or "not worth my time to discuss".
Yet somehow they justify to themselves that it's "time well spent" to explain to everyone why in a lengthly explanation.

At the end of the day, it's just an opinion/thought. And everyone's got em. So what makes your opinion more right then mine? If you don't agree with me about something, I totally respect that. I may even want to know why.

There are hundreds of threads on here. Most of which I'm not interested in because I'm uninterested in the topic. It would take me a heck of a long time to go to each thread and tell the forum world that I think this is a "waste of time, and how could anyone be interested in discussing such a topic".
Nope. I just move on to something I am interested in discussing. I just can't wrap my mind around why more people don't do that.

Whatever. Cheers regardless.

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08-10-2012, 08:20 PM
  #108
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Ok fellas, back on topic.

If you want to have a go at each other, do it via PM.

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08-10-2012, 08:47 PM
  #109
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Byfuglien and Jokinen for Toews and Olsen (At the deadline), But I think Chicago will be at the point of missing the playoffs and Winnipeg just trying to rebuild a little.

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08-10-2012, 09:15 PM
  #110
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Byfuglien and Jokinen for Toews and Olsen (At the deadline), But I think Chicago will be at the point of missing the playoffs and Winnipeg just trying to rebuild a little.

You forgot the

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08-11-2012, 07:45 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
You're right, this is the place for people to CHOOSE to discuss such things. Choose being the operative word.

I love talking about our players and using stats and factual information to better understand the role they play on our team, and what sort of players might be required to help, and eliminate certain weaknesses (as represented in statistics).

These are representations I can see. I can extrapolate what players would potentially help my team. It's like solving a puzzle.

Unfortunately, mock trades are a puzzle that can't be solved or even inferred upon with even an illusion of accuracy because, as Garret mentioned, the number of unknowns are too high.

Yes we can infer what players on our team may suit a deficiency of another team, but there's a lot more that goes into the decisions then just that (see garrets post as I think it covers the major basis).

Statistically, removing Byfuglien would cause tremendous harm to this teams performance. We could look at numbers and Infer what type of return we would like (a dman who's stats are slightly worse then his and something of similar value to make up the difference?) but even then it doesn't seem necessary, as there is not really a big enough hole anywhere else to justify shifting some of Byfugliens "value" out of his position and into another location.
I have enjoyed the contributions of the statisticians on the board, as well as the varying contributions of others. I have a reasonable understanding of stats, but understand their limitations as well. There is a bit of a bias on the board toward regarding stats as highly predictive and dismissing the value of qualitative observations and opinions as speculative.
We all bring different perspectives to the discussion; that's what makes it fun. When someone suggests a trade, it is not necessarily less valid than any other comment. For example, my background is in health care. I see Buff through that lens first and draw conclusions about present and future value based on what I know and observe. I then look at stats and, finally, make a subjective evaluation about the intangibles. I might do that for the player on the other side of the proposed trade as well. In Buff's case, I happen to think he is very talented, highly entertaining and probably a hell of a nice guy. But, my analysis, combined with my skill set, such as it is, tells me we could bring in more value to the Jets by trading him.
This particular rant is not about Byfuglien, whose success is likely linked to ours for the foreseeable future. It's about tolerance of divergent perspectives.

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08-11-2012, 08:34 PM
  #112
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I assume you mean get rather than stay......
I was of course being diplomatic.

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08-11-2012, 09:02 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I have enjoyed the contributions of the statisticians on the board, as well as the varying contributions of others. I have a reasonable understanding of stats, but understand their limitations as well. There is a bit of a bias on the board toward regarding stats as highly predictive and dismissing the value of qualitative observations and opinions as speculative.
We all bring different perspectives to the discussion; that's what makes it fun. When someone suggests a trade, it is not necessarily less valid than any other comment. For example, my background is in health care. I see Buff through that lens first and draw conclusions about present and future value based on what I know and observe. I then look at stats and, finally, make a subjective evaluation about the intangibles. I might do that for the player on the other side of the proposed trade as well. In Buff's case, I happen to think he is very talented, highly entertaining and probably a hell of a nice guy. But, my analysis, combined with my skill set, such as it is, tells me we could bring in more value to the Jets by trading him.
This particular rant is not about Byfuglien, whose success is likely linked to ours for the foreseeable future. It's about tolerance of divergent perspectives.
I'll bite on a qualitative opinion. Personally I can't see the Jets contending with Buff as their # 1 d-man. Someone correct me, but I can't ever remember a serious contender (team making it at least to the conference final) with a free ranging rover as their # 1 defenseman. Numerous odd man rushes against offset by the additional points of a 4th forward makes for entertaining hockey, but how does that win cups. In the Jets case it also limits Enstrom talents.

The type of trade I would like to see for Buff would be for a big, tough, defensively responsible second pairing guy in his early to mid 20's. Maybe if we are lucky we also get a solid prospect or a 1st round pick to help fill up the cupboard. It might weaken us a bit initially, but in the long run (and if our young core continues to develop) we will be further along towards the ultimate goal.

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08-11-2012, 09:36 PM
  #114
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It's ok... you should see his tweets about the Jets....
One can only imagine.....

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08-11-2012, 09:48 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I'll bite on a qualitative opinion. Personally I can't see the Jets contending with Buff as their # 1 d-man. Someone correct me, but I can't ever remember a serious contender (team making it at least to the conference final) with a free ranging rover as their # 1 defenseman. Numerous odd man rushes against offset by the additional points of a 4th forward makes for entertaining hockey, but how does that win cups. In the Jets case it also limits Enstrom talents.

The type of trade I would like to see for Buff would be for a big, tough, defensively responsible second pairing guy in his early to mid 20's. Maybe if we are lucky we also get a solid prospect or a 1st round pick to help fill up the cupboard. It might weaken us a bit initially, but in the long run (and if our young core continues to develop) we will be further along towards the ultimate goal.
What would be the benefit of moving Buff now?

Outside of an injury, or an unforeseen dip in production, Buffs value will be similar in a couple years. The Jets could also have a replacement in house with Trouba / Postma / Redmond further along in their development.

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08-11-2012, 10:29 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I'll bite on a qualitative opinion. Personally I can't see the Jets contending with Buff as their # 1 d-man. Someone correct me, but I can't ever remember a serious contender (team making it at least to the conference final) with a free ranging rover as their # 1 defenseman. Numerous odd man rushes against offset by the additional points of a 4th forward makes for entertaining hockey, but how does that win cups. In the Jets case it also limits Enstrom talents.
Edmonton Oilers and Pittsburgh Penquins with Paul Coffey perhaps?

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08-11-2012, 10:45 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I have enjoyed the contributions of the statisticians on the board, as well as the varying contributions of others. I have a reasonable understanding of stats, but understand their limitations as well. There is a bit of a bias on the board toward regarding stats as highly predictive and dismissing the value of qualitative observations and opinions as speculative.
We all bring different perspectives to the discussion; that's what makes it fun. When someone suggests a trade, it is not necessarily less valid than any other comment. For example, my background is in health care. I see Buff through that lens first and draw conclusions about present and future value based on what I know and observe. I then look at stats and, finally, make a subjective evaluation about the intangibles. I might do that for the player on the other side of the proposed trade as well. In Buff's case, I happen to think he is very talented, highly entertaining and probably a hell of a nice guy. But, my analysis, combined with my skill set, such as it is, tells me we could bring in more value to the Jets by trading him.
This particular rant is not about Byfuglien, whose success is likely linked to ours for the foreseeable future. It's about tolerance of divergent perspectives.
I think their is a disconnect here. I dont dismiss qualitative evidence or personal experience, I just think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, just like statistics. Adding stastics to your analyses gives you another tool, one that isnt clouded by preconceived notions (if used correctly, you can use just about any stat to back up just about anything-which would be using stats incorrectly). My opinions are generally formed based on qualitative evidence(personal viewing of the players) combined with looking at stats research. Obviously there is so much puck-luck in hockey that itès impossible to moneyball it like baseball, but that doesnt mean the stats are useless.

Ex: opinion: Buffs offensive ways do not make up for his defensive guffawes.
Stat: The jets contain the puck more frequently, and direct more shots towards their opponents net then allowing on their own while Buff is on the ice.
Result: though it may seem we let more shots on our net when buff is on the ice (generally due to the memorableness of such guffawes) the opposit is a fact. Quality of shots can be argued, but sheer shot volume is unequivocally in Byfugliens favor.

Everyones allowed to their opinion. I didnt intend to rant, merely thoughtfully and carefully explain my view, and why I hold it.

Youv say as a health care professional you think buffs value is higher as trade bate then his performance. Could you expand on that

my belief is buff is the perfect age for our core, is hugely important to our defence, and is on a decent contract. The return of a someone who does less + a prospect does not, imo, improve this hockey club in the most beneficial way. Mostly due to Noels specialist coaching and line use style

(im sorry for awful punctuation my keyboard is in some stupid setting that i cant turn off for the life of me

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08-11-2012, 11:00 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I think their is a disconnect here. I dont dismiss qualitative evidence or personal experience, I just think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, just like statistics. Adding stastics to your analyses gives you another tool, one that isnt clouded by preconceived notions (if used correctly, you can use just about any stat to back up just about anything-which would be using stats incorrectly). My opinions are generally formed based on qualitative evidence(personal viewing of the players) combined with looking at stats research. Obviously there is so much puck-luck in hockey that itès impossible to moneyball it like baseball, but that doesnt mean the stats are useless.

Ex: opinion: Buffs offensive ways do not make up for his defensive guffawes.
Stat: The jets contain the puck more frequently, and direct more shots towards their opponents net then allowing on their own while Buff is on the ice.
Result: though it may seem we let more shots on our net when buff is on the ice (generally due to the memorableness of such guffawes) the opposit is a fact. Quality of shots can be argued, but sheer shot volume is unequivocally in Byfugliens favor.

Everyones allowed to their opinion. I didnt intend to rant, merely thoughtfully and carefully explain my view, and why I hold it.

Youv say as a health care professional you think buffs value is higher as trade bate then his performance. Could you expand on that

my belief is buff is the perfect age for our core, is hugely important to our defence, and is on a decent contract. The return of a someone who does less + a prospect does not, imo, improve this hockey club in the most beneficial way. Mostly due to Noels specialist coaching and line use style

(im sorry for awful punctuation my keyboard is in some stupid setting that i cant turn off for the life of me
Shot in the dark:
Hold control and push shift. Then try the punctuation keys again.

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08-11-2012, 11:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
What would be the benefit of moving Buff now?

Outside of an injury, or an unforeseen dip in production, Buffs value will be similar in a couple years. The Jets could also have a replacement in house with Trouba / Postma / Redmond further along in their development.
If you could get good value for Buff (some sort of compination of 2nd pairing d-man, top prospect, 1st rounder) I believe you allow the Jets to move forward. IMO Buff playing the same role he did last year as our top defenseman, will just swirl the Jets around that almost bubble range rather than build towards a contender.

Again IMO you limit Enstrom's value by putting him in a babysitter role, you potentially limit Bogo's offensive development by keeping him off the top d-unit. But most of all you perpetuate a country club atmosphere where your top d-man is not big into conditioning and plays like he is in a rec league.

I will take this all back if Buff comes into camp in the best condition of his career, starts focusing on defense and becomming a real leader. He has the talent, but the only time I saw it put to full use he wasn't wearing a Jets uni and he hoisted the cup.

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08-11-2012, 11:41 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by broinwhyteridge View Post
Edmonton Oilers and Pittsburgh Penquins with Paul Coffey perhaps?
Forgot about Coffey. All we need now is a Gretzky, Messier, Kurri and Anderson and we are set

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08-12-2012, 12:07 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I think their is a disconnect here. I dont dismiss qualitative evidence or personal experience, I just think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, just like statistics. Adding stastics to your analyses gives you another tool, one that isnt clouded by preconceived notions (if used correctly, you can use just about any stat to back up just about anything-which would be using stats incorrectly). My opinions are generally formed based on qualitative evidence(personal viewing of the players) combined with looking at stats research. Obviously there is so much puck-luck in hockey that itès impossible to moneyball it like baseball, but that doesnt mean the stats are useless.

Ex: opinion: Buffs offensive ways do not make up for his defensive guffawes.
Stat: The jets contain the puck more frequently, and direct more shots towards their opponents net then allowing on their own while Buff is on the ice.
Result: though it may seem we let more shots on our net when buff is on the ice (generally due to the memorableness of such guffawes) the opposit is a fact. Quality of shots can be argued, but sheer shot volume is unequivocally in Byfugliens favor.

Everyones allowed to their opinion. I didnt intend to rant, merely thoughtfully and carefully explain my view, and why I hold it.

Youv say as a health care professional you think buffs value is higher as trade bate then his performance. Could you expand on that

my belief is buff is the perfect age for our core, is hugely important to our defence, and is on a decent contract. The return of a someone who does less + a prospect does not, imo, improve this hockey club in the most beneficial way. Mostly due to Noels specialist coaching and line use style

(im sorry for awful punctuation my keyboard is in some stupid setting that i cant turn off for the life of me
Just to be clear, I do not have any insider information and am merely making an educated guess re Buff's value from a health perspective. But..the stress on a professional athlete's body is immense, especially his knees and the force on ones knees goes up exponentially with increased weight. To counter that, one must work to be at an optimal weight and in superb physical shape. I don't see that in Buff and it worries me, particularly in view of the warning signs we saw last year. He'll be 28 this season and pro sport careers do not last forever for real big guys. So,what I have said is that Buff's prime playing years may be upon us and may not last. Hence, his trade value may be at its peak now and could easily drop if he does not look after himself. This is quite apart from any other consideration regarding his play.
I hope I am wrong.

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08-12-2012, 12:22 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
If you could get good value for Buff (some sort of compination of 2nd pairing d-man, top prospect, 1st rounder) I believe you allow the Jets to move forward. IMO Buff playing the same role he did last year as our top defenseman, will just swirl the Jets around that almost bubble range rather than build towards a contender.

Again IMO you limit Enstrom's value by putting him in a babysitter role, you potentially limit Bogo's offensive development by keeping him off the top d-unit. But most of all you perpetuate a country club atmosphere where your top d-man is not big into conditioning and plays like he is in a rec league.

I will take this all back if Buff comes into camp in the best condition of his career, starts focusing on defense and becomming a real leader. He has the talent, but the only time I saw it put to full use he wasn't wearing a Jets uni and he hoisted the cup.
Goals for, goals against, shots for and shots against... In the last two years, Jets/Thrashers have done better when Enstrom-Byfuglien is on the ice than when Enstrom-Bogosian is on the ice. These are results.
Not ripping on Bogosian; he's one of my favorites and maybe/hopefully/probably surpass Buff soon.
Some of your arguments here are a little loose.
Do I (and probably Grind and Truck) think Byfuglien would be better if he was in better shape and made less mistakes (notice both of these were improved in the later part of the season even with an injury)? Yes and any sane person would agree. That's not our argument.
Can we win a cup with Buff? Yes, it's possible, but obviously it doesn't land on one person if you hit or miss (see CBJ and Nash) but on the other hand if people aren't pulling their own *weight* (lol) it's probably not going to work out.
Currently and just IMHO, I do not see us possibly trading Byfuglien while upgrading our team. I do forsee it possible in the future once one of Trouba, Postma or Redmond pushes for tough/top minutes while Bogo slides to a legit #1.

Right now I see our team having:
2 legit #1s (Enstrom and Byfuglien)
1 highend 2nd pairing who is approaching 1st pairing upside (Bogosian)
3 offensive D that work better with sheltered minutes but 1 has been doing a decent job of tough mins (Clitsome/Postma and Hainsey)
1 deffensive D that works better with sheltered minutes (Stuart)

Right now we have 3/4 of a solid top 4. Downgrading Byfuglien won't push us to the next level in the short term.

PS my background was science but now health care too.

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08-12-2012, 10:22 AM
  #123
KingBogo
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Goals for, goals against, shots for and shots against... In the last two years, Jets/Thrashers have done better when Enstrom-Byfuglien is on the ice than when Enstrom-Bogosian is on the ice. These are results.
Not ripping on Bogosian; he's one of my favorites and maybe/hopefully/probably surpass Buff soon.
Some of your arguments here are a little loose.
Do I (and probably Grind and Truck) think Byfuglien would be better if he was in better shape and made less mistakes (notice both of these were improved in the later part of the season even with an injury)? Yes and any sane person would agree. That's not our argument.
Can we win a cup with Buff? Yes, it's possible, but obviously it doesn't land on one person if you hit or miss (see CBJ and Nash) but on the other hand if people aren't pulling their own *weight* (lol) it's probably not going to work out.
Currently and just IMHO, I do not see us possibly trading Byfuglien while upgrading our team. I do forsee it possible in the future once one of Trouba, Postma or Redmond pushes for tough/top minutes while Bogo slides to a legit #1.

Right now I see our team having:
2 legit #1s (Enstrom and Byfuglien)
1 highend 2nd pairing who is approaching 1st pairing upside (Bogosian)
3 offensive D that work better with sheltered minutes but 1 has been doing a decent job of tough mins (Clitsome/Postma and Hainsey)
1 deffensive D that works better with sheltered minutes (Stuart)

Right now we have 3/4 of a solid top 4. Downgrading Byfuglien won't push us to the next level in the short term.

PS my background was science but now health care too.
While my background is in neither science or healthcare (and I guess I can share what I do for a living if it is relavent to the conversation). But over the season Buff went from one of my favorite players to someone I think we should trade. I got tired of watching him spend most of the shift deep in the attacking zone and then comming to the bench gassed as the other team is comming down on an odd man rush. I said it before and I will say it again IMO Buff plays like the star player on a rec league team. He has tons of talent and can be very entertaining at times but I see the Jets continuing to be that semi bubble team, and never really a serious contender with a freelancing rover as their top defenseman. Just like last year and the year before in Atlanta and my guess where we will be again next year. Not laying all the blame on Buff just how I see it.

I liked the Coffey comparable of a previous post, but the Jets aren't the Oilers of the mid 80's.

In terms of your breakdown of our defense I agree we would have a hole on the second pairing that's why we would need a legit 2nd pairing guy comming back as part of a deal for Buff.

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08-12-2012, 10:24 AM
  #124
Grind
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Just to be clear, I do not have any insider information and am merely making an educated guess re Buff's value from a health perspective. But..the stress on a professional athlete's body is immense, especially his knees and the force on ones knees goes up exponentially with increased weight. To counter that, one must work to be at an optimal weight and in superb physical shape. I don't see that in Buff and it worries me, particularly in view of the warning signs we saw last year. He'll be 28 this season and pro sport careers do not last forever for real big guys. So,what I have said is that Buff's prime playing years may be upon us and may not last. Hence, his trade value may be at its peak now and could easily drop if he does not look after himself. This is quite apart from any other consideration regarding his play.
I hope I am wrong.
Exactly what I was looking for.

I can get that concern that he may not have more then 3 "top" seasons left in him due to his size, totally valid.

I guess it's mostly just that I see buff as the right fit for the organization right now, and that trading him won't move the team forward unless we can totally hose another GM because IMO we'd need a number 1 pairing or at worst a very high end number 2 pairing coming back, at around the same age.

Any trade that wouldn't set the team back would have to be pretty lateral (and even then, your now gambling on fit and chemistry) so it's pretty unlikely.

Probably the main reason i'd demand this sort of return is I do not see this team in full on rebuild mode. Though I understand the team is "new" for us and thus some will be very patient, when you think of the Franchise as an entity aside from ownership/location, they've been terrible for way too long. Though I can agree our prospect cupboard still needs some work, the NHL roster and core of this team needs to take a step forward.

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08-12-2012, 11:34 AM
  #125
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I'll bite on a qualitative opinion. Personally I can't see the Jets contending with Buff as their # 1 d-man. Someone correct me, but I can't ever remember a serious contender (team making it at least to the conference final) with a free ranging rover as their # 1 defenseman. Numerous odd man rushes against offset by the additional points of a 4th forward makes for entertaining hockey, but how does that win cups. In the Jets case it also limits Enstrom talents.

The type of trade I would like to see for Buff would be for a big, tough, defensively responsible second pairing guy in his early to mid 20's. Maybe if we are lucky we also get a solid prospect or a 1st round pick to help fill up the cupboard. It might weaken us a bit initially, but in the long run (and if our young core continues to develop) we will be further along towards the ultimate goal.
I have to admit, I was as frustrated with Byfuglien's style of play as anyone on here last year (check the boards, I was pretty harsh on him )

However, I think because he has been in the league for a while everyone thinks wysiwyg with him. The fact is, the guy is still a pup in terms of the development of an NHL defenseman. Last year was only his second as a full time d man. When you throw in the success he has had (points scored, winning a cup) I'm sure it has been more of a challenge to convince Byfuglien to: be in better shape, and to play more of a system and defense first game.

For me the real key will be watching him this year to see if the modest progress in these areas continue. I get the feeling that Dustin is a bit immature or a 'free spirit'. If the coaches continue to reign that in, and he shows more of a committment to learn and improve in his own zone, we could have a real Chara story on our hands.

The guy is massive, he has a great shot, great speed for someone his size and great offensive instincts. If he adds solid defensive play to his game he well may become the best defenseman in the entire league, and I do not think that is an overstatement. As much as I was calling for the Jets to dump him last year, trading him now might be a Chara-esque mistake.


For me, the first big test will be seeing how he comes in to camp. What kind of shape, how is he practicing, etc.

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