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Ty Rattie to the Flames

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Old
08-12-2012, 02:40 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
We actually did make plays for top money this year. We were in the Matt Carle running. We can spend major money on players, if it makes sense. If we couldn't, we wouldn't be involved in Bouwmeester's name at all, or Carle in the off-season or whatever. You seem to not understand "Being unwilling" and "Not finding the right deal." It's the same reason why we seem to be able to keep our top players for below market value while other teams (yours included) overspend on players in free agency.

And Rattie was a high second round pick BEFORE he dismantled the WHL. And he did that when Sven was there or not. If that's all your willing to give for him, this ends now, because the only prospect in your entire organization worth as much as him is Sven.
I think it's more of a case of "Not finding any deals because the money we're willing to spend isn't interesting enough." There's been no real evidence to support that the Blues can spend real salary dollars on UFA players or roll with big trades.

As for the Rattie thing, you might want to check what you're saying against Baertschi. In his first year he only put up 37 points in 61 games without Baertschi. When Baertschi comes along in the next season, Rattie sees 71 points in 67 games while Baertschi enjoyed 85 in 66, and the season after, Rattie's 121 in 69 is great, but Baertschi's 94 in 47 (a 2.00 PPG rate) is even greater. Are you sure Baertschi isn't Rattie's catalyst? I'm not saying he won't develop into a good player all his own, as my previous posts have illustrated that. But I really do believe he'll max out at 60 points, and I believe a properly motivated/developed Granlund would do the same, thus, the near-equal value.

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08-12-2012, 02:44 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Autograph View Post
I think it's more of a case of "Not finding any deals because the money we're willing to spend isn't interesting enough." There's been no real evidence to support that the Blues can spend real salary dollars on UFA players or roll with big trades.

As for the Rattie thing, you might want to check what you're saying against Baertschi. In his first year he only put up 37 points in 61 games without Baertschi. When Baertschi comes along in the next season, Rattie sees 71 points in 67 games while Baertschi enjoyed 85 in 66, and the season after, Rattie's 121 in 69 is great, but Baertschi's 94 in 47 (a 2.00 PPG rate) is even greater. Are you sure Baertschi isn't Rattie's catalyst? I'm not saying he won't develop into a good player all his own, as my previous posts have illustrated that. But I really do believe he'll max out at 60 points, and I believe a properly motivated/developed Granlund would do the same, thus, the near-equal value.
Because, you know, the Halak trade and the Stewart/Shattenkirk trade were nothing.

And a guy only put up 37 points when in the WHL when he was 16? Well, by golly, there's no chance he'll ever turn into anything! And once more the point is: When Sven was in Calgary, Rattie was still producing at a point per game+ total. He was still dominating the league, when Sven wasn't there. I'm not saying he's as good as Sven. I am saying he's better then anyone else that you have, and he was doing it whether Sven was on his line or not.

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08-12-2012, 02:54 AM
  #28
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Because, you know, the Halak trade and the Stewart/Shattenkirk trade were nothing.

And a guy only put up 37 points when in the WHL when he was 16? Well, by golly, there's no chance he'll ever turn into anything! And once more the point is: When Sven was in Calgary, Rattie was still producing at a point per game+ total. He was still dominating the league, when Sven wasn't there. I'm not saying he's as good as Sven. I am saying he's better then anyone else that you have, and he was doing it whether Sven was on his line or not.
The costs sure weren't, which was the point.
They weren't being paid like 5m+, which is what a lot of great UFAs are paid, great players are paid.
My point was that the Blues are always looking for an even-capital trade, and that creates holes in the roster faster than filling them. The moment a big name player is made available who makes over 5 million in cap, the Blues already count themselves out of the running because dealing in roster players means they lose depth, and dealing prospects/picks mean they spend money that they can't realistically spend, which is why UFA is so dodgy as well.

If you're not able to pay attention, I'm not going to respond to you.

AS for your second point... Rattie needs to play in the NHL before you should proclaim that he's better on anyone's roster, let alone Calgary's. If he's better than Giordano, for instance, then why would a Cole + Rattie deal even be talked about from either side?
Rattie is a player who SHOULD get a point per game without the likes of Baertschi on the other wing. But I guess the thing that troubles me weirdly is that, if Baertschi and Rattie didn't play together all the time, why did Sven still attain 2 PPG while Rattie didn't? If they played together, that would boost Rattie's PPG as well as Baertschis. And when they didn't, then it's a better indicator of what the distance is between a post-concussion Baertschi to a healthy Rattie... which is why I believe Baertschi carried more of Rattie's point totals than vice versa.

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08-12-2012, 03:01 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Autograph View Post
The costs sure weren't, which was the point.
They weren't being paid like 5m+, which is what a lot of great UFAs are paid, great players are paid.
My point was that the Blues are always looking for an even-capital trade, and that creates holes in the roster faster than filling them. The moment a big name player is made available who makes over 5 million in cap, the Blues already count themselves out of the running because dealing in roster players means they lose depth, and dealing prospects/picks mean they spend money that they can't realistically spend, which is why UFA is so dodgy as well.

If you're not able to pay attention, I'm not going to respond to you.

AS for your second point... Rattie needs to play in the NHL before you should proclaim that he's better on anyone's roster, let alone Calgary's. If he's better than Giordano, for instance, then why would a Cole + Rattie deal even be talked about from either side?
Obviously I meant your prospects, but unlike you I'm not going to toss in a "You should pay attention more" comment. You know, other then that one.

And, once again, we are CURRENTLY in the Bouwmeester running according to a lot of people, or at least we were earlier this off-season (Hell, the entire subject was brought up due to the Blues). We were in the running for Carle before the price went full retard, even though most Blues fans didn't want him. We were expected to be players for Garrison, but he gave a discount for Vancouver. We have also been connected to Keith Yandle, though the asking price in terms of parts in return would be hard to match simply due to the level of pieces in play.

The funny thing is, the more I read your posts, the more misinformed I think you are, yet you are the one coming in acting like you know a bunch of stuff. Go figure.

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08-12-2012, 03:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
Obviously I meant your prospects, but unlike you I'm not going to toss in a "You should pay attention more" comment. You know, other then that one.

And, once again, we are CURRENTLY in the Bouwmeester running according to a lot of people, or at least we were earlier this off-season (Hell, the entire subject was brought up due to the Blues). We were in the running for Carle before the price went full retard, even though most Blues fans didn't want him. We were expected to be players for Garrison, but he gave a discount for Vancouver. We have also been connected to Keith Yandle, though the asking price in terms of parts in return would be hard to match simply due to the level of pieces in play.

The funny thing is, the more I read your posts, the more misinformed I think you are, yet you are the one coming in acting like you know a bunch of stuff. Go figure.
That's pretty much why I quit responding to him.

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08-12-2012, 03:11 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
That's pretty much why I quit responding to him.
Yeah, I think I'm done as well. I don't know why people find the idea that we are only trading Rattie if it's a piece we need. How often do we have to bang this freaking drum?

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08-12-2012, 03:26 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
Obviously I meant your prospects, but unlike you I'm not going to toss in a "You should pay attention more" comment. You know, other then that one.

And, once again, we are CURRENTLY in the Bouwmeester running according to a lot of people, or at least we were earlier this off-season (Hell, the entire subject was brought up due to the Blues). We were in the running for Carle before the price went full retard, even though most Blues fans didn't want him. We were expected to be players for Garrison, but he gave a discount for Vancouver. We have also been connected to Keith Yandle, though the asking price in terms of parts in return would be hard to match simply due to the level of pieces in play.

The funny thing is, the more I read your posts, the more misinformed I think you are, yet you are the one coming in acting like you know a bunch of stuff. Go figure.
Say what you mean and mean what you say. I don't mix words. Seeing as how "there's nobody on the Flames that the Blues want other than Giordano" was brought up quite a few times, you could see how anyone through ambiguous statements would assume any player.

That entire paragraph is a perfect showing of why you can't afford to play. I'm not saying the Blues are mismanaged. I'm saying they are not big players because there's always bigger fish in the pond.

Is St Louis justified in not wanting to pay "full retard" prices? Yeah, they are. But they're also the second place team in the Western Conference. They have a good system and a great coach. They should be spending.
But I think they're really just financially handicapping themselves by conservatively spending all the time. They're not going to get "hometown discount UFAs" like Garrison because St Louis isn't a hockey development hotbed. For players like Yandle, I don't think they have much to give up because yeah, everyone else would be too and with bigger pieces and the cap to trade for them (even though his price is quite reasonable, which only drives demand upwards). And for players like Carle or even Wideman, who got overpriced contracts, well, they're just going to be outpriced almost every time. that's the nature of UFA.
Even when you're willing to play, there's a bigger kid out there who can knock you down every time and take your lunch. It's what's happened every time so far.

Of course I don't know everything about you guys but when was the last time the Blues attracted a big UFA or a big trade that involved a player with more than 4.5 - 5m in cap space? I can't recall one in the last 5 years, but I'm more than OK with being proven wrong.

If your window is now, then don't waste it on particulars. If Rattie is part of the Stanley Cup solution in St Louis, that's great. But as a prospect with no NHL games to his belt, he could also fall flat, which isn't likely but stranger things have happened. His value isn't stellar, yet. And Bouwmeester or Giordano aren't the be-all end-all solution, but I really wonder when the time comes will your management even be able to push that button and put the team over the top?

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08-12-2012, 04:26 AM
  #33
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There wasn't any point to signing a huge UFA in the last five years, management has been waiting for our core to get to where they should be. I'm not losing any sleep over our inability to land basically any UFA this year. Suter/Parise weren't going to happen and no one else is worth throwing mountains of gold at.

Also, I agree with not fixing what isn't broken. If you look at the player and management interviews they all like the current mix. And while we didn't win the Stanley Cup, these guys showed what they can do when they aren't all simultaneously out with long term injuries, so I'm happy with the progress made.

In conclusion, I have been satisfied with how the current management has rebuilt my team, and will continue to trust in them to take my team in the right direction, because I believe they are doing a better job than HFBoards Forum User Autograph would.

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08-12-2012, 08:03 AM
  #34
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Of course I don't know everything about you guys but when was the last time the Blues attracted a big UFA or a big trade that involved a player with more than 4.5 - 5m in cap space? I can't recall one in the last 5 years, but I'm more than OK with being proven wrong.
Kariya? That was five years ago, at $6m AAV.

As has been posted, we really have been out of the market for most of that five season window because the 3-5 years ago window was all about internal roster development and letting the kids play, and the franchise has been *for sale* the last 2 seasons.

Hell, this ofseason the ink has barely dried on Stillman's purchase agreement. They've spent a good number of months reorganizing the business side of the org to the new ownership's liking, and getting RFAs signed. Plus there's the reticence to spend huge
Money ahead of signing their own franchise defenseman...and the bit where a budget conscious team may be a bit leery of spending "full retard" money on one player without knowing the cap, comp, and revenue particulars of the non-existant CBA...

There are legitimately prudent competitive planning and business reasons why the blues have been off the market for big name UFAs the last five years that have nothing to do with just being cheap. But i guess when someone is used to the Jay Feaster development model, all that *prudent business* nonsense goes right out the window.

I'm sure we can all agree that there are perfectly good ways to build a competitive team that don't involve spending a hojillion dollars for Dennis Wideman.

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08-12-2012, 08:10 AM
  #35
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I think Rattie is an okay prospect. I didn't see much improvement in his game over the past couple of years that Blues fans have supposedly witnessed. I see him as the same opportunistwho finds the weak spots and finishes off the work of his team mates. That is not a bad thing. Luc Robitaille was like. Mike Bossy was like that. Steve Shutt was like that. I think the Flames already have a Rattie type prospect in e system in Ryan Howse. Howse didn't play on a team anywhere near as good as Rattie,nor had a player at the same level as Bartschi as his setup man, but was still a similar player. We'll see how his skating and work ethic are once he gets to the AHL and if they are good enough for the pro game. Rattie will have to stand on his own merits and won't be able to play the role of one-way finisher like he did in junior. At that point we'll find out if he is more Jarome Iginla or more Bob Maudie or Hnat Domenichelli. At this point I don't think the player is anywhere near as good as his point totals and is not close to being a NHL player as the sum of his parts are not overly impressive. He shows some great potential, but no more than a number of players that were drafted by every single team in the NHL.

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08-12-2012, 08:17 AM
  #36
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Say what you mean and mean what you say. I don't mix words. Seeing as how "there's nobody on the Flames that the Blues want other than Giordano" was brought up quite a few times, you could see how anyone through ambiguous statements would assume any player.

That entire paragraph is a perfect showing of why you can't afford to play. I'm not saying the Blues are mismanaged. I'm saying they are not big players because there's always bigger fish in the pond.

Is St Louis justified in not wanting to pay "full retard" prices? Yeah, they are. But they're also the second place team in the Western Conference. They have a good system and a great coach. They should be spending.
But I think they're really just financially handicapping themselves by conservatively spending all the time. They're not going to get "hometown discount UFAs" like Garrison because St Louis isn't a hockey development hotbed. For players like Yandle, I don't think they have much to give up because yeah, everyone else would be too and with bigger pieces and the cap to trade for them (even though his price is quite reasonable, which only drives demand upwards). And for players like Carle or even Wideman, who got overpriced contracts, well, they're just going to be outpriced almost every time. that's the nature of UFA.
Even when you're willing to play, there's a bigger kid out there who can knock you down every time and take your lunch. It's what's happened every time so far.

Of course I don't know everything about you guys but when was the last time the Blues attracted a big UFA or a big trade that involved a player with more than 4.5 - 5m in cap space? I can't recall one in the last 5 years, but I'm more than OK with being proven wrong.

If your window is now, then don't waste it on particulars. If Rattie is part of the Stanley Cup solution in St Louis, that's great. But as a prospect with no NHL games to his belt, he could also fall flat, which isn't likely but stranger things have happened. His value isn't stellar, yet. And Bouwmeester or Giordano aren't the be-all end-all solution, but I really wonder when the time comes will your management even be able to push that button and put the team over the top?
I feel like you're saying the blues should go out and trade or sign players no matter the price. I don't want the blues to get stuck overpaying for crappy dman like dennis wideman. Its so easy for you to spend other peoples money. Spending with no regard use to be the motto of the blues. It took a decade to fix the blues, and I dont want to go back there.

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Old
08-12-2012, 09:52 AM
  #37
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...while we need a center, Backlund doesn't interest us.
Speak for yourself, sir...

I for one would be very interested in acquiring Backlund for the Blues #3C position... but if the Bouwmeester "proposals" are any indication, then what Calgary's fanbase would demand for Backlund would be far more than the Blues would, or should, be willing to pay.

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08-12-2012, 10:07 AM
  #38
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We have Oshie and Steen, both of which can do that job if it comes down to it, and do it better.

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08-12-2012, 10:20 AM
  #39
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No thanks, taking a gamble on two older guys that destroyed the dub together isn't my idea of a hockey trade or smart moving. Unless rattie comes in a larger deal that sees Calgary get a Berglund type coming back.

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08-12-2012, 10:44 AM
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No thanks, taking a gamble on two older guys that destroyed the dub together isn't my idea of a hockey trade or smart moving. Unless rattie comes in a larger deal that sees Calgary get a Berglund type coming back.
I can tell you that wont happen. Berglund is a young 2C, and the Blues do not have the organizational depth down the middle to replace him, and there would be nothing coming back the other way that would fill that void/make sense. Berglund is one guy the Blues simply cannot afford to lose at this point.

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08-12-2012, 11:19 AM
  #41
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To Flames:Rattie
Jake Allen
1st 2013
Stewart
Cundari

To Blues:Iginla
Giordano
3rd 2013

OR
To flames:Backlund
Rattie

To Blues:Bowmester

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08-12-2012, 11:41 AM
  #42
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Not sure why fellow Flames fans are acting like Bartschi is a seasoned vet in comparison to Rattie... He played 5 measly games.

Sure he did great, but my goodness, don't piss yourselves, it was a small sample size.

Anyways, I would rather wait a year and see what Rattie becomes before I even express interest in him. His value will be a little more clear at that point.

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08-12-2012, 11:44 AM
  #43
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To Flames:Rattie
Jake Allen
1st 2013
Stewart
Cundari

To Blues:Iginla
Giordano
3rd 2013

OR
To flames:Backlund
Rattie

To Blues:Bowmester
Oh boy, thats awful. If you think Rattie can fetch Bouwmeester AND Backlund, this thread has no hope for either side.

And I'm not even going to talk about that first one, good god.

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08-12-2012, 11:57 AM
  #44
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Say what you mean and mean what you say. I don't mix words. Seeing as how "there's nobody on the Flames that the Blues want other than Giordano" was brought up quite a few times, you could see how anyone through ambiguous statements would assume any player.

That entire paragraph is a perfect showing of why you can't afford to play. I'm not saying the Blues are mismanaged. I'm saying they are not big players because there's always bigger fish in the pond.

Is St Louis justified in not wanting to pay "full retard" prices? Yeah, they are. But they're also the second place team in the Western Conference. They have a good system and a great coach. They should be spending.
But I think they're really just financially handicapping themselves by conservatively spending all the time. They're not going to get "hometown discount UFAs" like Garrison because St Louis isn't a hockey development hotbed. For players like Yandle, I don't think they have much to give up because yeah, everyone else would be too and with bigger pieces and the cap to trade for them (even though his price is quite reasonable, which only drives demand upwards). And for players like Carle or even Wideman, who got overpriced contracts, well, they're just going to be outpriced almost every time. that's the nature of UFA.
Even when you're willing to play, there's a bigger kid out there who can knock you down every time and take your lunch. It's what's happened every time so far.

Of course I don't know everything about you guys but when was the last time the Blues attracted a big UFA or a big trade that involved a player with more than 4.5 - 5m in cap space? I can't recall one in the last 5 years, but I'm more than OK with being proven wrong.

If your window is now, then don't waste it on particulars. If Rattie is part of the Stanley Cup solution in St Louis, that's great. But as a prospect with no NHL games to his belt, he could also fall flat, which isn't likely but stranger things have happened. His value isn't stellar, yet. And Bouwmeester or Giordano aren't the be-all end-all solution, but I really wonder when the time comes will your management even be able to push that button and put the team over the top?
So the Blues should overpay for players who may or may not help the team and are likely to limit future moves and re-signings? That reeks of desperation and lack of business savvy.

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08-12-2012, 12:07 PM
  #45
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So the Blues should overpay for players who may or may not help the team and are likely to limit future moves and re-signings? That reeks of desperation and lack of business savvy.
He is a Flames fan see the Wideman signing. So I guess I can understand why it would make sense to him.

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08-12-2012, 12:08 PM
  #46
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I honestly think moving Rattie for the right package right now makes sense. His value is at an all time high coming off an incredible season, and I highly doubt he replicates those numbers, or even close next year. If we could get a solid roster player for a package including Rattie, I'd be all for it. It's still very difficult for small players to make it big in the NHL. For every Marty St. Louis, there are at least 10 that couldn't make it in a grown man's league. He's an intriguing prospect to be sure, and I don't want to unload him for nothing, but lets not pretend he's untouchable.

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08-12-2012, 12:16 PM
  #47
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Oh boy, thats awful. If you think Rattie can fetch Bouwmeester AND Backlund, this thread has no hope for either side.

And I'm not even going to talk about that first one, good god.
No it's worse he messed up and thinks Bouwmeester is worth Berglund + Rattie...

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08-12-2012, 12:23 PM
  #48
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I'd be happy to acquire Rattie, but I sure as hell would not overpay for him. Bouwmeester going one way and Rattie going the other in a package is fair. Rattie makes me nervous; his success seems almost directly attributed to Bartschi's playmaking. I want to see what Rattie can do without Bartschi, since Bartschi has proven he can score without Rattie.

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08-12-2012, 12:31 PM
  #49
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Rattie has proven he can score without Bartschi too lol. He played 22 more games than Bartschi did last season and ended up third in the WHL in scoring. I don't really have the motivation to look up exactly the numbers he put up in games without Bartschi, but they couldn't have been too bad if almost 1/3 of his entire season was played without Bartschi and he still put up huge numbers. Playing with him certainly didn't hurt though

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08-12-2012, 12:33 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
I'd be happy to acquire Rattie, but I sure as hell would not overpay for him. Bouwmeester going one way and Rattie going the other in a package is fair. Rattie makes me nervous; his success seems almost directly attributed to Bartschi's playmaking. I want to see what Rattie can do without Bartschi, since Bartschi has proven he can score without Rattie.
You honestly have no idea what your are talking about. With or without Bartschi, Rattie performed well. I think you can ask any fan of the team and they will tell you they both made each other better. It was not one player carrying the other player.

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