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Aside from Carey, do we have a "star"?

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Old
08-12-2012, 10:04 AM
  #76
Estimated_Prophet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
In today's NHL, those are star numbers.

Maybe we could choose a simpler way to define what makes a star... If a player is invited to the all-star game, he should be considered a star. If he's invited regularly, then he can be considered a superstar.
That would be a terrible way of assigning these titles. There are plenty of players who play in the all-star game who are not stars and are only there because each team must be represented.

A star is a player who is expected to make an all-star team regardless of what team he is on. A superstar is simply a star among stars, one of a handfull of players who the all-star game is marketed around.

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08-12-2012, 11:03 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Armstrong is a star.



Talbot is a superstar.
That is literally the worst acting I've ever seen.

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08-12-2012, 11:09 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DoingItLeBlancWay View Post
Same here, I don't think Max will exponentially improve upon this season, but will plateau at around 30-30 production, with a few 35-40 goal seasons maybe
I see a star player as someone you look to on the team to make a difference in tight situations. With Carey, you look to him to make that big, important save when the score is tied or you're up by a goal with a minute left in the game. A forward, you look to him to score goals. If Pacioretty plateaus at 30 goals a year with a few 35-40 goal seasons tossed in there, that is definitely star material for any team.

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08-12-2012, 11:41 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
That is incorrect.

He sucked in the playoffs with 9 points in 14 games, which is only a 50 point pace.

His 34 pts in the final 41 games is almost an identical pace as his 31 points in his first 37 games.

He is talented enough to score 65 pts in his sleep. It really was a pathetic effort by him from start to finish.
You realize that the system he played in might have had an influence on his point totals right?
I don't know why you always solely look at points. You realize you can play very well and not get on the score sheet right?

I'm not saying Ovechkin had a terrific year. He didn't, to his standards. I wouldn't say he sucked in the POs though, he played smart and followed the system. Backstrom scored 8pts in 13gp, and he had good series too. Point total isn't the be all end all, especially not in the POs under a defensive system.

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08-12-2012, 11:51 AM
  #80
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You realize that the system he played in might have had an influence on his point totals right?
I don't know why you always solely look at points. You realize you can play very well and not get on the score sheet right?

I'm not saying Ovechkin had a terrific year. He didn't, to his standards. I wouldn't say he sucked in the POs though, he played smart and followed the system. Backstrom scored 8pts in 13gp, and he had good series too. Point total isn't the be all end all, especially not in the POs under a defensive system.
If you have read my posts over the years you would know better than to say something as ridiculous as I only look at points. I watched him alot last season including all of the playoff games. He was clearly sulking about the system that was being put in place.

He just went through the motions for most of last season. Hopefully he grows up because he is a spoiled brat with a pile of talent. He was easily one of my favourite players when he first came up but I was disgusted with him last season.

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08-12-2012, 04:37 PM
  #81
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To me a superstar is a player who is at least HOF calibre. Price may be that guy maybe PK. But neither of them are superstars yet. We haven't had a real superstar since Patrick Roy.

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08-12-2012, 04:40 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
To me a superstar is a player who is at least HOF calibre. Price may be that guy maybe PK. But neither of them are superstars yet. We haven't had a real superstar since Patrick Roy.
I think a mega star is HOF calibre. Superstar doesn't necessarily have to be.

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08-12-2012, 05:11 PM
  #83
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I don't use terms like star or superstar because they are inheriently subjective and everyone has their own definition.

I can tell you though that I can make good arguments that Pacioretty should be considered a top 10 left wing in this league, Subban a top 10 right side defenseman and Price a top 10 goaltender.

What that means depends on what you consider a player who is in the top 10 of their position to be.

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08-12-2012, 05:24 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
If you have read my posts over the years you would know better than to say something as ridiculous as I only look at points. I watched him alot last season including all of the playoff games. He was clearly sulking about the system that was being put in place.

He just went through the motions for most of last season. Hopefully he grows up because he is a spoiled brat with a pile of talent. He was easily one of my favourite players when he first came up but I was disgusted with him last season.
Sorry to butt in but i disagree he completely sucked in the playoffs, especially agaisnt Boston he was the few inviduals on the ice that could generate offense, most notably Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci, Marchard, Bäckström were complete invisible, he also was playing ( more like trying, effort was there ) defence. Agaisnt Rangers he was pretty bad except for the PP were he was great, but he was benched everytime we would go up by a goal, as was Bäckström, Semin.

Tldr, there was whole top 6 of Boston playing worse than him, and agaisnt Rangers he was benched half the game. While bad playoffs i think your assesment was little bit too harsh.

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08-12-2012, 05:36 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Sorry to butt in but i disagree he completely sucked in the playoffs, especially agaisnt Boston he was the few inviduals on the ice that could generate offense, most notably Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci, Marchard, Bäckström were complete invisible, he also was playing ( more like trying, effort was there ) defence. Agaisnt Rangers he was pretty bad except for the PP were he was great, but he was benched everytime we would go up by a goal, as was Bäckström, Semin.

Tldr, there was whole top 6 of Boston playing worse than him, and agaisnt Rangers he was benched half the game. While bad playoffs i think your assesment was little bit too harsh.
He was benched because he was dogging it.

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08-12-2012, 05:40 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I don't use terms like star or superstar because they are inheriently subjective and everyone has their own definition.

I can tell you though that I can make good arguments that Pacioretty should be considered a top 10 left wing in this league, Subban a top 10 right side defenseman and Price a top 10 goaltender.

What that means depends on what you consider a player who is in the top 10 of their position to be.
In Pacioretty's case you would be basing that on one season. One 30 goal season does not make a star. If he does it again next season then we have a real discussion. I personally think he will be able to build on last season's success and I wouldn't count him out for 40 this season if he can stay healthy.

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08-12-2012, 05:41 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
He was benched because he was dogging it.
So was Bäcktröm and Semin, hardly was the only one.

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08-12-2012, 05:48 PM
  #88
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Book it, David *Goliath Killer* Desharnais will rise as a NHL star as soon as this year. And Im serious. He have elite vision, elite will, and a much better then average scoring instinct around the net. It's amazing how people are unable to see it, blinded by his size.

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Old
08-12-2012, 05:49 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
In Pacioretty's case you would be basing that on one season. One 30 goal season does not make a star. If he does it again next season then we have a real discussion. I personally think he will be able to build on last season's success and I wouldn't count him out for 40 this season if he can stay healthy.
Two seasons. Pacioretty was playing at an elite level in 2010-11, same basis as I have for Subban essentially. The difference he made for the team and his linemates during his truncated season was massive. Habs were an elite team when he was with them that year.

Mid-season Pacioretty gets called up from the AHL and plays like a first line LW, mid-season Subban gets pulled up from the 3rd pairing and plays like a number one defenseman.

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Old
08-12-2012, 05:51 PM
  #90
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our first superstar since Jan Bulis



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08-12-2012, 06:00 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
I see a star player as someone you look to on the team to make a difference in tight situations. With Carey, you look to him to make that big, important save when the score is tied or you're up by a goal with a minute left in the game. A forward, you look to him to score goals. If Pacioretty plateaus at 30 goals a year with a few 35-40 goal seasons tossed in there, that is definitely star material for any team.
You look for it but does it really happen ?

Habs were one of the worst team at keeping leads last season. We scored the first goal with regularity and squandered a ton of leads in the third. That's certainly not all Price's fault, but part of it is and I dunno that you can say he was making the big saves with the score tied or one up late in a game.

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08-12-2012, 06:12 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You look for it but does it really happen ?

Habs were one of the worst team at keeping leads last season. We scored the first goal with regularity and squandered a ton of leads in the third. That's certainly not all Price's fault, but part of it is and I dunno that you can say he was making the big saves with the score tied or one up late in a game.
Even Jesus Christ would have looked bad in net with that last year team playing in front.. Habs were probably the worst team in the league to hold a lead, we have been outplayed badly for the most part of the season, the guys werent united or commited to play the system.. Price saved our ass and kept us in the games many many many times.. With an average starter, our weakness would have been exposed big time and we would have been humiliated on the scoreboard with regularity..


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08-12-2012, 06:13 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Two seasons. Pacioretty was playing at an elite level in 2010-11, same basis as I have for Subban essentially. The difference he made for the team and his linemates during his truncated season was massive. Habs were an elite team when he was with them that year.

Mid-season Pacioretty gets called up from the AHL and plays like a first line LW, mid-season Subban gets pulled up from the 3rd pairing and plays like a number one defenseman.
You are looking at this as a Habs fan. Scoring 14 goals in half of a season in combination with a 33 goal season doesn't make anyone a star. If he played for another team I am sure you would see it differently.

He is my favourite player on the team but he is not a star......yet.

It would have been as silly as Leaf fans calling Kulemin a star before last season. Some of them were even trying to convince me that they wouldn't trade him straight up for Stamkos because Kulemin is a "power forward"........

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08-12-2012, 06:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
I think a mega star is HOF calibre. Superstar doesn't necessarily have to be.
A HOF isn't necessarily a superstar (ie. Steve Shutt) but a superstar is always a HOFer.

And we haven't had one since Roy.

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08-12-2012, 06:33 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You are looking at this as a Habs fan. Scoring 14 goals in half of a season in combination with a 33 goal season doesn't make anyone a star. If he played for another team I am sure you would see it differently.

He is my favourite player on the team but he is not a star......yet.
If it was just 14 goals in a half season prior to this one I'd agree with you but I use better metrics than that.

A 14 goal half season player usually is one that got more than their share of the bounces over a short period of time. Just the nature of things recorded in small numbers than someone is bound to get lucky over that period of time.

Pacioretty wasn't like that, he dominated the shots and scoring chances charts and the Habs massively out-shot and outchanced their opponents with him on the ice. That's a mark of not luck but sustainable good play

If it was just that half season, chalk it up as a reason to be optimistic but following it up with a full season of doing it again is enough for me. Pacioretty is a top level winger.

Its not a matter of 47 goals in 116 games, its one and a half seasons of dominating the balance of play in the NHL, one is far more likely to be a flash in the pan than the other.

There's more evidence that Pacioretty is star winger than there is for a Evander Kane but people aren't doubting his future impact.


Its basically equivalent to the reasons I'd have to call his closest comparable in age and talent in Logan Couture a star forward. Except its easier to be a top level winger than a top level center, you can basically be a top 10 LW with the same impact of a top 30 C.

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Old
08-12-2012, 07:57 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
If it was just 14 goals in a half season prior to this one I'd agree with you but I use better metrics than that.

A 14 goal half season player usually is one that got more than their share of the bounces over a short period of time. Just the nature of things recorded in small numbers than someone is bound to get lucky over that period of time.

Pacioretty wasn't like that, he dominated the shots and scoring chances charts and the Habs massively out-shot and outchanced their opponents with him on the ice. That's a mark of not luck but sustainable good play

If it was just that half season, chalk it up as a reason to be optimistic but following it up with a full season of doing it again is enough for me. Pacioretty is a top level winger.

Its not a matter of 47 goals in 116 games, its one and a half seasons of dominating the balance of play in the NHL, one is far more likely to be a flash in the pan than the other.

There's more evidence that Pacioretty is star winger than there is for a Evander Kane but people aren't doubting his future impact.


Its basically equivalent to the reasons I'd have to call his closest comparable in age and talent in Logan Couture a star forward. Except its easier to be a top level winger than a top level center, you can basically be a top 10 LW with the same impact of a top 30 C.
It's sad that we try to pass off players like Max as 'stars.' I guess we're just so starved for one that we just try to imagine players as being better than they really are. That's what we did with Koivu for years.

Max is not a star. Like his teammates Price and Subban, he has star potential but he's not there yet. He had a very good season and put up some nice numbers on a bad team. That doesn't put him into the 'star' category.

He's a legit 1st line player. He could turn out to be a very good player maybe even a great one. But it's way too soon to start calling him a 'star'. He's not there yet and he may never be.

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Old
08-12-2012, 07:59 PM
  #97
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thread title should be "aside from P.K., do we have a "star""

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08-12-2012, 08:27 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
If you have read my posts over the years you would know better than to say something as ridiculous as I only look at points. I watched him alot last season including all of the playoff games. He was clearly sulking about the system that was being put in place.

He just went through the motions for most of last season. Hopefully he grows up because he is a spoiled brat with a pile of talent. He was easily one of my favourite players when he first came up but I was disgusted with him last season.
He was sulking? Did he whine and cry? No he didn't. He was used less, didn't complain about it, and did what was asked of him. Ya, he made some mistakes, kind of normal when you have a guy that is so focused on explosive offense but is asked to be defensively responsible.

Ya, he's a spoil brat and Semin is a PoS.

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Old
08-12-2012, 09:04 PM
  #99
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Stars:
Price, PK Subban, Pacioretty (potential star), Cole, Galchenyuk (potentially)

Superstars (potential superstar):
Price, PK Subban, and Galchenyuk (potential).

Blue-collar stars:
Gorges



p.s.: Pacioretty...I want to see him do well without Desharnais and same with Desharnais...I don't ever want to be a one line team unless management sees potential for another top 5 overall pick!


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 08-13-2012 at 01:33 AM.
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Old
08-12-2012, 09:08 PM
  #100
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Optimism

This thread has it.

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