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Do we have a number one D-Man?

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Old
08-11-2012, 08:59 PM
  #26
overlords
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Subban's offensive production technically falls into #1 production at t28th, I believe. It's debatable, though. Defensively, yep. He'd qualify.

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Old
08-11-2012, 09:08 PM
  #27
The Gal Pals
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Subban is a future #1 and Markov and Kabs are former #1's so it all equals out.

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Old
08-11-2012, 09:37 PM
  #28
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Made me LOL when someone in the thread tried to state Subban was a #3

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08-11-2012, 10:14 PM
  #29
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We have two #1's if Markov is anywhere near what he was.

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Old
08-11-2012, 11:27 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issacar View Post
I don't think that Subban is an established 1st pair dman, but he sure proved that he could play the part.

Imo, Gorges is a 1st pair dman
, I don't want to say that he's on the same level of Dan Hamhuis or Robyn Regher but he does bring comparable intangibles on the ice.
On one hand, you're not sure if Subban is a 1st pair dman yet but Gorges is. Oh boy.

Gorges has no business on any first pair unless it's a Beauchemin to Niedermayer, Komisarek to Markov, Dandeneault to Lidstrom situation where your #1 is so awesome that a somewhat competent player will do the trick.

And from reading that other thread, I gather Carey Price is a superstar too.

Yet with such stalwarts on D and in nets, we were one of the worst team in the league at keeping leads. Ahh the things people tell themselves...

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Old
08-11-2012, 11:44 PM
  #31
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Gorges is a #3, Subban played like a good #2 to average #1 last year. Subban will improve and will likely solidify his place as #1(if he hasn't already).

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Old
08-12-2012, 12:24 AM
  #32
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Subban has to do much moreon D and O before we regard him as a matinee idol.

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Old
08-12-2012, 08:16 PM
  #33
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IMO Subban has been a better 5 on 5 defender in his last two years than Markov was when healthy. Markov was very good 5 on 5 more like Hamrlik was good 5 on 5, not the game changer Subban is. What made Markov a top level defenseman was being arguably the best power play defenseman of his time while being pretty good to great at everything else.

Subban is more balanced between all disciplines, if anything, the powerplay is his weakest game state.

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Old
08-12-2012, 10:17 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
IMO Subban has been a better 5 on 5 defender in his last two years than Markov was when healthy. Markov was very good 5 on 5 more like Hamrlik was good 5 on 5, not the game changer Subban is. What made Markov a top level defenseman was being arguably the best power play defenseman of his time while being pretty good to great at everything else.

Subban is more balanced between all disciplines, if anything, the powerplay is his weakest game state.
Yet, we drafted him for this. His weakest game state is is discipline.

Markov and P.K. are both numero uno !

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Old
08-12-2012, 11:41 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
IMO Subban has been a better 5 on 5 defender in his last two years than Markov was when healthy. Markov was very good 5 on 5 more like Hamrlik was good 5 on 5, not the game changer Subban is. What made Markov a top level defenseman was being arguably the best power play defenseman of his time while being pretty good to great at everything else.

Subban is more balanced between all disciplines, if anything, the powerplay is his weakest game state.
That just isn't true. Subban has really struggled defensively for stretches and has been prone to making boneheaded giveaways......which he was benched for. He has vastly improved over the two seasons but Markov was almost impossible to beat 1 on 1 and was positionally perfect.

Before people jump on me, I am not saying that Subban is bad defensively. It is quite the opposite as he has been great in his own end for long stretches. With maturity the blunders should disappear but this is not a problem that Markov ever displayed until last season but I think he deserves a mulligan on that one.

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Old
08-13-2012, 02:03 AM
  #36
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Subban is our franchise #1 dman (can't remember the last time we've had such a talented dman and so exciting to watch).


1. PK Subban (sky is the limit)
2. Gorges (solid top 4 dman on any team imo...top 2-3 for our Habs since we don't have that depth right now...we have to wait for Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Thrower, etc...).
3. Markov (major major wild card...it's almost over for Markov but he still has to collect his
$5.75mil/year, so he'll around for a while...but I'll really snap if they ever give him an adiitional $5.75mil/year).


Everyone else is a wild card (and this could include Markov who is usually injured and even if he isn't...he has done ZERO for our Habs when it counts the most...playoffs ; can't wait for the post-Markov era to begin...fresh start with a younger d-corps led by Subban and Gorges).


This is what we're all waiting for (and maybe a young-veteran solid top 4 UFA dman? to remove the pressure from Tinordi, Beaulieu...):
Tinordi - PK Subban
Gorges - Ellis
Beaulieu - Thrower

Emelin
Dietz


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Old
08-13-2012, 02:23 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
That just isn't true. Subban has really struggled defensively for stretches and has been prone to making boneheaded giveaways......which he was benched for. He has vastly improved over the two seasons but Markov was almost impossible to beat 1 on 1 and was positionally perfect.

Before people jump on me, I am not saying that Subban is bad defensively. It is quite the opposite as he has been great in his own end for long stretches. With maturity the blunders should disappear but this is not a problem that Markov ever displayed until last season but I think he deserves a mulligan on that one.
He might struggle at points and plays a relatively high risk/high reward game but Subban dominates even strength play in a way Markov couldn't match. He was better IMO carrying Gill around than Markov was carrying Komisarek and Subban+Gorges is the best pairing Montreal has iced in a long time. Markov had that sublime first pass, but that doesn't quite match what Subban can do with both a great first pass and skating with the puck. On defense Markov is harder to beat one on one but Subban is close and has the ability uncanny ability to vacuum up lose pucks.

On aggregate, you end up with better results on even strength with Subban. Not massively better. He makes more mistakes, but is more involved in the game and impacts it more.

Markov's offensive zone/power play game was sublime though. Subban has nothing on that.

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Old
08-13-2012, 05:02 AM
  #38
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Subban is.

Even if his season beginnings are pretty underwhelming for whatever reason.

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Old
08-13-2012, 05:39 AM
  #39
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the worst i'd go is to say that subban is a #1.5 if that makes any sense

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Old
08-13-2012, 09:23 AM
  #40
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Subban is a #1, unless his next season is a disaster, which I doubt. I'm not sure what more we could have expected from him in his first 2 years. Markov is also a #1 if he returns to form.

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08-13-2012, 09:54 AM
  #41
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Markov has perhaps one or two seasons left as a #1... if he can somehow get back to form. Otherwise Subban is the #1. So yes, we have a #1.

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Old
08-13-2012, 11:40 AM
  #42
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Subban for sure and maybe markov

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:02 PM
  #43
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Subban needs to learn to QB a PP before I'll consider him a number 1 d-man.

Markov is our go to guy if he can stay healthy. Assuming he can return to form, we have one number one d-man and 1 number two with the potential of becoming a number one in a few years.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galchenyuk94 View Post
Subban needs to learn to QB a PP before I'll consider him a number 1 d-man.

Markov is our go to guy if he can stay healthy. Assuming he can return to form, we have one number one d-man and 1 number two with the potential of becoming a number one in a few years.
Subban will NEVER QB a PP during Markov's tenure here. Fact is, I don't see a whole lot of people taking over Mark.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:14 PM
  #45
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Hopefully Markov.


Subban is a #1 on a last place team, would be #2 on a good team, at least right now.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:22 PM
  #46
Galchenyuk94
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Subban will NEVER QB a PP during Markov's tenure here. Fact is, I don't see a whole lot of people taking over Mark.
Me neither. Don't know why people pencil him off the team after his contract. We should hang on to him until he can't play anymore.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:43 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Galchenyuk94 View Post
Me neither. Don't know why people pencil him off the team after his contract. We should hang on to him until he can't play anymore.
I don't see Markov off the team just yet, just that, in two years' time, he may not be a #1 anymore.

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Old
08-13-2012, 02:00 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
I don't see Markov off the team just yet, just that, in two years' time, he may not be a #1 anymore.
But he still may be servicable, Ala Hamrlik, Gonchar, Zubov...

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Old
08-13-2012, 02:22 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Pr3Va1L View Post
Hopefully Markov.


Subban is a #1 on a last place team, would be #2 on a good team, at least right now.
Subban was also a #1 on a 6th place team. The problems last year had nothing to do with the 1st pairing.

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:53 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Subban was also a #1 on a 6th place team. The problems last year had nothing to do with the 1st pairing.
Exactly. The first-pair was adequate and in fact very effective. The issue stemmed from absolutely terrible depth outside of the first-pair.

Subban is a #1-2 depending who talk to.
Gorges is a #3-4 (some might say 2) depending who you talk to.

then we have

Emelin who some say is a Top 4, but last year he was at best a #5. More of a #6.

Diaz: see above.

Kaberle some might say is still a Top 4, but he hasn't played like on since Toronto. He's at best a #5 (the way he's played).

Campoli and Weber are at best #7 defenseman (the way they've played).


I don't care what anyone says, we played with only 2 Top 4-caliber D-men last season. One of which is on the lower tier of that (Gorges). That is a sure-fire recipe for disaster: which it was. The bright side for this year is we are getting hopefully a healthy Markov which will *at worst* give us another Top-4 defenseman, perhaps a #1 defenseman if he returns to form. Emelin and Diaz will have more notches on their belts and should be able to contribute a little more. We still have a relatively uni-dimensional and weak defense-corps IMO.

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