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Canucks not tough enough to succeed in today's NHL?

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Old
08-12-2012, 05:40 PM
  #51
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Any time the Sedins make up 1/3 of your top 6 its likely going to be a softer top 6 than most teams.

That said, a GM could literally kill himself looking for big, tough skilled talent at the detriment of getting good, hard working and well-fitting pieces.

And to those dismissing the idea, Gillis clearly agrees with the article. The Kassian trade coupled with this past draft should give a good indication as to where Gillis believes the NHL is headed and where his team needs to go to find that success.

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08-12-2012, 05:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Depending on what Anaheim wants to do, I would take a serious run at Corey Perry and/or Ryan Getzlaf.
I don't think this is realistic (just my opinion, however). We'd have to give up Edler, Schneider, and god knows what else to get one of them. Well actually ANA doesn't even need a goalie...

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08-12-2012, 05:43 PM
  #53
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I don't think this is realistic (just my opinion, however). We'd have to give up Edler, Schneider, and god knows what else to get one of them.
Disagree.

Depending on how contract negotiations with them go, they could become available at the deadline if Anaheim is a bottom team once again. That cost you mentioned wouldn't be close to what they go for. Picks and prospects.

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08-12-2012, 06:11 PM
  #54
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*sigh*

When was the last time Detroit won the Stanley Cup? 2008. And 2002 before that. And a few times in the 90's. Boston won in 2011. And before that...uh...a while ago.

The Canucks were slaughtered by injuries in the finals, and a big part of why is that the refs threw the rule book in the garbage can for them, okay? More fighters weren't going to make a bloody difference. Every "tough" thing the Bruins did was old-time hockey, and every "tough" thing the Canucks did was the most disgusting, dirty thing ever and therefore deserving of righteous retribution. The entire narrative from the NHL, the refs and the media was tailor-made to play to the Bruins' strengths. Sedin getting rabbit-punched by Marchand? That's on the ****ing REFEREES to deal with. We all remember when Danny actually fought back against Bolland, right? Face facts, as long as the officiating can employ total double standards whenever they feel like it, we're screwed no matter what the team does.

Unless it's scoring more than the other team.

LA had every horseshoe on the planet crawl up their ***** this year, and let's be serious here, the Canucks were a middling team held in it by their goalies ever since the Boston game in January.

Players who are big, tough, skilled, fast and can basically do everything are very, very rare. Gillis can't just walk up to the Power Forward tree and pick himself a couple of Doans and Lucices, can he? Look what Kassian cost us, and that was for a guy that we think might someday approach "complete player" status.

Ugh, I've been sick of this argument since about this time last year.

/thread

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08-12-2012, 06:34 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
No, what I'm telling you is if the Canucks had some tough bad ass top 6 forward we would be better suited to make a legitimate Cup run than we are now. As it stands, we need to rely on our goalie to bail our ***** out. Our top 6 forwards aren't that great in the playoffs, and they get pushed around a lot. What sickens me is when I see our star winger get punched in the face by someone who is smaller than him, and he does nothing about it. And on top of that, NO ONE does anything about it.

It really bothers me how closed minded some people are. They see "Canucks aren't that tough" and automatically equate to that as people saying we need more 4th line goons. That's not the case. We need skilled toughness to infuse into our top 6. That's something that Shane Doan does, that's something that Milan Lucic does. That's something that Dustin Brown does. That is something this team doesn't have.
I'd go one step further, offensive type toughness not defensive type toughness.

Defensive toughness ie goons not defensemen. Their job is to "intimidate" the opposition into not trying something.

Offensive toughness is out there making s*** happen. Hitting people, getting in faces etc. Lucic is pretty obvious example here, hitting, intimidating and fighting. However Brown brings lots of offensive toughness and he's also the single biggest ***** in the league, if a mosquito bit him he'd turtle rather than squash it.

The Kings are big and aggressive in hockey style but they are soft (Kopitar, Williams, Gagne, Penner, Brown, Richards, Carter, Doughty, Mitchell, etc) isn't intimidating anyone Bruins style.


Last edited by me2: 08-12-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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08-12-2012, 08:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by armchairgmvancouver View Post
Derek Dorsett, Chris Neill, Zac Rinaldo, Cody Mcleod, Brandon Prust, and Shawn Thorton, were all in the top 8 for penalty min and all can drop the gloves yet they all had more points then Weise. Guess your the one with whose opinion should be discredited.
damn, the points argument. i'll go tell weise to start taking shots from our blue line, i guess (you have no idea what you're talking about)

edit: lol you actually said "zac rinaldo". sorry, didnt realize you were trolling

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08-12-2012, 09:24 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
damn, the points argument. i'll go tell weise to start taking shots from our blue line, i guess (you have no idea what you're talking about)

edit: lol you actually said "zac rinaldo". sorry, didnt realize you were trolling
Ok I'll bite why do you like Dale Weise? Negative player on a pretty good team. Doesn't fight and if I'm missing something please forgive me but isn't that physical either? Yes through in Rinaldo to show how little value Weise has not to say Rinaldo is somebody I want. By the way Neill, Prust, and Thorton hands down better then Weise. You said Weise better then any goon well I just named 3 I'm sure plenty more.

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08-12-2012, 09:55 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by armchairgmvancouver View Post
Ok I'll bite why do you like Dale Weise? Negative player on a pretty good team. Doesn't fight and if I'm missing something please forgive me but isn't that physical either? Yes through in Rinaldo to show how little value Weise has not to say Rinaldo is somebody I want. By the way Neill, Prust, and Thorton hands down better then Weise. You said Weise better then any goon well I just named 3 I'm sure plenty more.
Other than manny malhotra, he starts in the defensive zone more than any other player in the league. His d-zone starts aren't even close to other players and his role isn't to hit, bang and score the occasional goal, its to ensure faceoff wins and get the puck moving out of our zone and into theirs so the dudes who are hockey goal scorers can do their hockey goal scoring thing.

You aren't comparing apples to apples. Shawn Thornton starts in the offensive zone 52% of the time. Prust is a lot closer at 33%, and Neil is being paid 2m a year. Weise is at 20%. It's a lot harder to score goals when you never have a full shift near the other teams net.

Keep in mind that Prust starts at 33% and ends in the off. zone 43% of the time - Weise starts in his zone 20% of the time and ends in the off zone 50% of the time. That's a lot of Sedin Offensive Zone Start Time that gets them a lot of points.

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08-12-2012, 10:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
Other than manny malhotra, he starts in the defensive zone more than any other player in the league. His d-zone starts aren't even close to other players and his role isn't to hit, bang and score the occasional goal, its to ensure faceoff wins and get the puck moving out of our zone and into theirs so the dudes who are hockey goal scorers can do their hockey goal scoring thing.

You aren't comparing apples to apples. Shawn Thornton starts in the offensive zone 52% of the time. Prust is a lot closer at 33%, and Neil is being paid 2m a year. Weise is at 20%. It's a lot harder to score goals when you never have a full shift near the other teams net.

Keep in mind that Prust starts at 33% and ends in the off. zone 43% of the time - Weise starts in his zone 20% of the time and ends in the off zone 50% of the time. That's a lot of Sedin Offensive Zone Start Time that gets them a lot of points.
This is something I did not know and appreciate your well written response. Weise is more valuable then I realized and I admit my error. I would still like some more sandpaper on our team though.

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08-12-2012, 10:14 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by armchairgmvancouver View Post
This is something I did not know and appreciate your well written response. Weise is more valuable then I realized and I admit my error. I would still like some more sandpaper on our team though.
Toughness is aesthetically pleasing because it's essentially synonymous with effort - guys that hit a lot have to be trying because they're doing physically exerting things to make a difference.

The problem is that more than any other quality, toughness is a thing valued highly by essentially every gm in the league, so it's always going to be at a premium. Milan Lucic is a good player, not a great one, but it would require a king's ransom to get him away from the Bruins. You can apply this overpricing to pretty much every single power forward or power forward prospect in the league - look at what we gave up for Kassian.

So either you add this sandpaper at a higher cost, or you look for guys like Weise, Malhotra or Lappy who have a less overvalued combination of "not soft, good at hockey". If you like big hits, it's not as fun to watch, but it's just as effective and it's cheaper. Remember that the rangers drafted Weise with a 4th round pick and we got him for free off of waivers - and he's definitely an above replacement level player.

edit: that's enough effort posting for me can someone say something dumb so i can insult them

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08-12-2012, 11:02 PM
  #61
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This is something I did not know and appreciate your well written response. Weise is more valuable then I realized and I admit my error. I would still like some more sandpaper on our team though.
I'm not a huge fan of the "defensive zone starts as an excuse for everything" argument (obviously there's something to it, but it still gets used too liberally-- "Manny Malhotra had an EXCELLENT year-- why?-- because, defensive zone starts"), but Weise gets pretty underrated.

He's a solid 4th liner who plays reasonably well defensively, does whatever is asked of him physically, sticks up for his teammates to the best of his abilities (he's not a fighter), has solid puck skills for a 4th line guy, is really young, and definitely has potential to go from a solid 4th line winger to an excellent/ideal 4th line winger.

I think people see the way he's clawed onto the team as a 4th liner and automatically associate him with fringe, dead-end Glass/Volpatti-type or something. The guy is not a negative asset to this team, not even close. Even if he doesn't outplay Malhotra/Raymond for the 4th line spot, he'd be an excellent 13th forward and great to have sticking around long-term.

If we're talking about "toughness/physicality", these guys are not a problem, IMO..

XX - XX - Burrows
XX - Kesler - Booth
Higgins - XX - Hansen
XX - Lapierre - Kassian
Weise

Edler - Garrison
Hamhuis - Bieksa
Ballard - XX
Alberts

Strong gritty players added to that second line winger spot and 3rd line center spot would do wonders for this team, though. And there isn't really anything you can do about the Sedins/Tanev

However, I do think that giving both Raymond and Schroeder significant roles on this team would be a problem.


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08-12-2012, 11:32 PM
  #62
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manny didnt have an excellent year, he had a good year. the year before was excellent

there's a difference between "no, manny isn't a buyout level waste of roster space" and "hes the best defensive forward in the league". nobody has said that he's an elite player, but he's worth the money we pay him both for his current performance and his promise of further performance once he has a good off-season of training

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08-13-2012, 03:34 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
manny didnt have an excellent year, he had a good year. the year before was excellent

there's a difference between "no, manny isn't a buyout level waste of roster space" and "hes the best defensive forward in the league". nobody has said that he's an elite player, but he's worth the money we pay him both for his current performance and his promise of further performance once he has a good off-season of training
I think he had a perfectly understandably so-so/okay year, even taking into account everything I've heard about defensive starts..

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08-13-2012, 03:41 AM
  #64
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also a valid opinion!

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08-13-2012, 03:42 AM
  #65
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LA didn't beat us because of toughness they had a better top 6 and were clicking at the right time while in that same time period the Canucks just looked lazy and la see dah. Still think of Daniel was healthy it would've gone 7.

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08-13-2012, 09:55 AM
  #66
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If you really want to, the way to getting a balanced top six is clear. Put a Sedin on each line. A tougher individual on the line and another in the defensive pairing ought to be enough.

I'm not just throwing this out there. I think Daniel's concussion might affect him like the Moore hit affected Naslund. Two different things, I know, but Daniel did absorb a blast to his brain in an act of thuggery that went (for all intents and purposes) unpunished. Why would he continue to persue a career in this environment when he could be playing for MODO?

If Gillis really wants to make this franchise a destination for free agents, perhaps protecting stars would be a starting point? This doesn't mean a goon on every line, it just means resorting priorities. You cannot utilize a feature line in the sort of officiating the NHL displayed last season, at least, not a soft one.

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08-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #67
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Dustin Brown runs over everyone all over the league regardless of who they have on their 4th line. Did Rome smash Horton because he knew Boston was such a wimpy team that nobody would touch him? Did Torres kill Seabrook because he's way tougher than John Scott and knew Scott would be too scared to touch him?

You're telling me that if the Canucks have some ******* playing 4 minutes a game on the 4th line in the 2011 playoff run, that's going to stop other teams from hitting them? In the ****ing Stanley Cup Playoffs? Geez.
Toughness doesn't prevent big hits but what it does is prevent is some of the after the whistle crap im sick of seeing. I'm tired of watching the Sedins get punched in the head (Marchand) or getting trolled after the whistle (Joe Thornton) without anyone stepping up and defending them. If there was one guy on the ice who would just step up and drop the mits when other teams players are face washing and hacking our art ross trophy winners then maybe players will stop abusing them after the whistles. The way it is right now its embarrassing, its just a Sedin standing there and taking it while Burrows tries to get involved while Edler, Salo (ya i know hes gone) and the other Sedin just stand around and watch. If someone like Marchand pulled that crap on Gaborik or Spezza there would be a tilt and it wouldnt happen again. I have never seen to superstars take so much abuse after the whistles and not dish it back or have their teammates step up and stick up for them.

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08-13-2012, 10:06 PM
  #68
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Toughness doesn't prevent big hits but what it does is prevent is some of the after the whistle crap im sick of seeing. I'm tired of watching the Sedins get punched in the head (Marchand) or getting trolled after the whistle (Joe Thornton) without anyone stepping up and defending them. If there was one guy on the ice who would just step up and drop the mits when other teams players are face washing and hacking our art ross trophy winners then maybe players will stop abusing them after the whistles. The way it is right now its embarrassing, its just a Sedin standing there and taking it while Burrows tries to get involved while Edler, Salo (ya i know hes gone) and the other Sedin just stand around and watch. If someone like Marchand pulled that crap on Gaborik or Spezza there would be a tilt and it wouldnt happen again. I have never seen to superstars take so much abuse after the whistles and not dish it back or have their teammates step up and stick up for them.
That's fine, and I agree that it would be nice to see guys jump in more. But that stuff isn't the reason players are getting hurt, and isn't the reason the Canucks lost the finals, which is what the post I was replying to was about, and what this thread is about.

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08-13-2012, 10:09 PM
  #69
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I'm not a huge fan of the "defensive zone starts as an excuse for everything" argument (obviously there's something to it, but it still gets used too liberally-- "Manny Malhotra had an EXCELLENT year-- why?-- because, defensive zone starts"), but Weise gets pretty underrated.

He's a solid 4th liner who plays reasonably well defensively, does whatever is asked of him physically, sticks up for his teammates to the best of his abilities (he's not a fighter), has solid puck skills for a 4th line guy, is really young, and definitely has potential to go from a solid 4th line winger to an excellent/ideal 4th line winger.

I think people see the way he's clawed onto the team as a 4th liner and automatically associate him with fringe, dead-end Glass/Volpatti-type or something. The guy is not a negative asset to this team, not even close. Even if he doesn't outplay Malhotra/Raymond for the 4th line spot, he'd be an excellent 13th forward and great to have sticking around long-term.
I'd agree that it's not a be-all, end-all thing but when people are complaining about those players not chipping in on the scoreboard, and that is the basis of a lot of the reason that they think they're no good, then the o-zone starts become pretty relevant.

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08-14-2012, 01:45 AM
  #70
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Toughness doesn't prevent big hits but what it does is prevent is some of the after the whistle crap im sick of seeing. I'm tired of watching the Sedins get punched in the head (Marchand) or getting trolled after the whistle (Joe Thornton) without anyone stepping up and defending them. If there was one guy on the ice who would just step up and drop the mits when other teams players are face washing and hacking our art ross trophy winners then maybe players will stop abusing them after the whistles. The way it is right now its embarrassing, its just a Sedin standing there and taking it while Burrows tries to get involved while Edler, Salo (ya i know hes gone) and the other Sedin just stand around and watch. If someone like Marchand pulled that crap on Gaborik or Spezza there would be a tilt and it wouldnt happen again. I have never seen to superstars take so much abuse after the whistles and not dish it back or have their teammates step up and stick up for them.
This makes no sense. Hockey fights have zero deterrence.

If you want to stop the kind of crap that happened in the Boston series you have to do get your hands dirty. Do something with consequences. It's like the quote from The Untouchables: "He pulls a knife, you pull a gun, he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago Boston way". The Bruins weren't tougher than us, they were dirtier than us. They were willing to do whatever it takes to win.

If the refs are calling it close, then kill them on the PP. But if they calling it loose, you have to take advantage of it. A slash to wrists or back of the knee often goes undetected and as Bieksa and Edler can attest, can be pretty debilitating. Stay away from the elbows and head shots as the league is totally focused on those.

Other teams are obviously doing this. Dale Hunter complained last year that the Bruins were deliberately targeting Backstrom's head. Shea Weber deliberately drove Zetterberg's head into the glass. Duncan Keith elbowed Daniel Sedin in the head. Matt Cooke, Brad Marchand, Dan Carcillo and Ben Eager still have careers. Chris Pronger, Alex Ovechkin, Steve Downie, Milan Lucic and PK Subban are examples of skilled players with a dirty streak.

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08-14-2012, 03:21 AM
  #71
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This makes no sense. Hockey fights have zero deterrence.

If you want to stop the kind of crap that happened in the Boston series you have to do get your hands dirty. Do something with consequences. It's like the quote from The Untouchables: "He pulls a knife, you pull a gun, he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago Boston way". The Bruins weren't tougher than us, they were dirtier than us. They were willing to do whatever it takes to win.

If the refs are calling it close, then kill them on the PP. But if they calling it loose, you have to take advantage of it. A slash to wrists or back of the knee often goes undetected and as Bieksa and Edler can attest, can be pretty debilitating. Stay away from the elbows and head shots as the league is totally focused on those.

Other teams are obviously doing this. Dale Hunter complained last year that the Bruins were deliberately targeting Backstrom's head. Shea Weber deliberately drove Zetterberg's head into the glass. Duncan Keith elbowed Daniel Sedin in the head. Matt Cooke, Brad Marchand, Dan Carcillo and Ben Eager still have careers. Chris Pronger, Alex Ovechkin, Steve Downie, Milan Lucic and PK Subban are examples of skilled players with a dirty streak.
Bolded is exactly what we DON'T need. Look how well that worked out for Bertuzzi.

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08-14-2012, 04:10 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
Bolded is exactly what we DON'T need. Look how well that worked out for Bertuzzi.
Yeah we ended up trading him when he came back, got Luongo and the team was on its track to a better team that won back to back presidents trophies


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08-14-2012, 10:35 AM
  #73
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Bolded is exactly what we DON'T need. Look how well that worked out for Bertuzzi.
He said dirty - not stupid.

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08-14-2012, 10:48 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
This makes no sense. Hockey fights have zero deterrence.

If you want to stop the kind of crap that happened in the Boston series you have to do get your hands dirty. Do something with consequences. It's like the quote from The Untouchables: "He pulls a knife, you pull a gun, he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago Boston way". The Bruins weren't tougher than us, they were dirtier than us. They were willing to do whatever it takes to win.

If the refs are calling it close, then kill them on the PP. But if they calling it loose, you have to take advantage of it. A slash to wrists or back of the knee often goes undetected and as Bieksa and Edler can attest, can be pretty debilitating. Stay away from the elbows and head shots as the league is totally focused on those.

Other teams are obviously doing this. Dale Hunter complained last year that the Bruins were deliberately targeting Backstrom's head. Shea Weber deliberately drove Zetterberg's head into the glass. Duncan Keith elbowed Daniel Sedin in the head. Matt Cooke, Brad Marchand, Dan Carcillo and Ben Eager still have careers. Chris Pronger, Alex Ovechkin, Steve Downie, Milan Lucic and PK Subban are examples of skilled players with a dirty streak.
I can agree with this. If the zebras are calling it like they should be, no need to get dirty. But if the officiating has gone to **** and they're not calling anything, by all means go for it. I just don't want our team to sit around sucking their thumbs, waiting for PPs that aren't coming and *doing nothing* when the stripes are letting it all go while our players are getting hurt from their dirty tactics. Hopefully management has adjusted their expectations from the refs for this year... which is really to not expect much at all.

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08-14-2012, 01:28 PM
  #75
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I would. They also have their toughness in their top 9 also.

We have volpatti and weise and kassian who played what, 6 min a game in the playoffs. lol

I truly think if we didn't have Bieksa, we'd be screwed
Yeah I do recall Joe Thornton antagonizing Sedin while they talked to the ref in a game last year. Maybe the Sharks are tougher than the Canucks, it's tough to be objective but as some personal anecdotal evidence it's felt like we've always matched up against their toughness really well which is why I made my original comment

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