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08-13-2012, 01:46 AM
  #251
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The Flames did not win the Phaneuf deal. The Leafs were an extremely poor team at the time of the trade and we got players that over exceeding due to the roles they were put in. None of the guys we got were bad players, but they were not what we needed.

The bad asset management came from a result of getting quantity in lieu of quality. We did not need players that are very easy to find in FA for a borderline franchise dman.

We probably could of landed Spezza for Dion if we added a 1st. It was not a good move and set back this franchise. The only positive from it was that we learned getting spare parts in a trade is not the way to go.
Thought Calgary would have learned their lesson after Gilmour.

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08-13-2012, 09:09 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
The Flames did not win the Phaneuf deal. The Leafs were an extremely poor team at the time of the trade and we got players that over exceeding due to the roles they were put in. None of the guys we got were bad players, but they were not what we needed.

The bad asset management came from a result of getting quantity in lieu of quality. We did not need players that are very easy to find in FA for a borderline franchise dman.

We probably could of landed Spezza for Dion if we added a 1st. It was not a good move and set back this franchise. The only positive from it was that we learned getting spare parts in a trade is not the way to go.
I heard Holmgren never knew Dion was available and was pissed when he found out as he wanted him we probably could have gotten one of M Richards or Jeff Carter.

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08-13-2012, 09:40 AM
  #253
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I heard Holmgren never knew Dion was available and was pissed when he found out as he wanted him we probably could have gotten one of M Richards or Jeff Carter.
I doubt either would have been available at the time since they were considered franchise players. Now Claude Giroux may have been available back in 2010. We'll never know, though.

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08-13-2012, 09:42 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I heard Holmgren never knew Dion was available and was pissed when he found out as he wanted him we probably could have gotten one of M Richards or Jeff Carter.
Why did you have to tell me that?! I love Richards and the value probably would of been very close!

Sutter =

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08-13-2012, 09:45 AM
  #255
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I doubt either would have been available at the time since they were considered franchise players. Now Claude Giroux may have been available back in 2010. We'll never know, though.
Why did you have to tell me that?! I love Giroux and the value probably would of been very close!

Sutter =


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08-13-2012, 09:53 AM
  #256
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Anyone got a delorean?

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08-13-2012, 11:09 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I doubt either would have been available at the time since they were considered franchise players. Now Claude Giroux may have been available back in 2010. We'll never know, though.
Giroux was already untouchable in 2009.

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08-13-2012, 11:19 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I doubt either would have been available at the time since they were considered franchise players. Now Claude Giroux may have been available back in 2010. We'll never know, though.
Damn you're probably right lol.

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08-13-2012, 11:36 AM
  #259
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There are lots of rumors going around about Jay Bo and I think if Calgary is seriously looking at trading Jay Bo they have to look at trading him to a team that can give them a top 4 d-man in return. The reason is Calgary only has Girodano, Wideman and Sarich as their top three if Jay Bo is traded they need someone to replace him. Besides the minutes that Jay Bo eats we do not have a guy who can consistently play against the oppositions top line. Unless Calgary get a d-man in return who can be their top d-man it is not worth trading Jay-bo as it will make the Flames weaker on defense.

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08-13-2012, 11:36 AM
  #260
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Giroux was already untouchable in 2009.
I don't think he was. He was a skinny forward that didn't have a role in the top-6 for the Flyers at the time. The Flyers also had other young players rated more highly at the time, such as James van Riemsyk and Joffrey Lupul, plus they had Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell, and Gagne. Their defence, meanwhile, still needed another top-4 guy.

Phaneuf was only 25 at the time, and it was well known that Holmgren had a big crush on Phaneuf. As such, I think Holmgren would have offered Giroux in a package. Of course, Sutter probably would have turned that offer down.

This is all speculative, but I do think Giroux would have been one piece of an offer for Phaneuf.

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08-13-2012, 11:43 AM
  #261
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I think we could of got Giroux and a 2nd for Dion back then and I think Holmgren would of done that deal.

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08-13-2012, 12:32 PM
  #262
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I got to admit, this is turning into a silly debate. What's done is done. But if we move Bouwmeester, we should get one guaranteed franchise peice, and not a couple of mediocre peices. We have one hole as an organization: A number centre. Bouwmeester is the only reason we don't have the hole of a top pairing defensemen. If we're going to put a hole in our club, we better be filling one. Wingers, goalies, top 4 defensemen, prospects, etc. are out of the question IMO.

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08-13-2012, 12:58 PM
  #263
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It is silly, but to be honest its summer and there really isn't much else to talk about around here. God I hope there isn't a lockout.

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08-13-2012, 01:41 PM
  #264
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If he's moved it better be for an upgrade at center. And if its Scott Gomez Feaster must have lost his meds.

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08-13-2012, 02:14 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
The Flames did not win the Phaneuf deal. The Leafs were an extremely poor team at the time of the trade and we got players that over exceeding due to the roles they were put in. None of the guys we got were bad players, but they were not what we needed.

The bad asset management came from a result of getting quantity in lieu of quality. We did not need players that are very easy to find in FA for a borderline franchise dman.

We probably could of landed Spezza for Dion if we added a 1st. It was not a good move and set back this franchise. The only positive from it was that we learned getting spare parts in a trade is not the way to go.
Dion Phaneuf is not and never was a "borderline franchise defenseman" and the only reason he saw Norris votes is because he was a big-hitting Canadian boy who put up some decent offensive numbers. Big hits equal defense, of course. We learned that in 1998 when Rob Blake won the Norris over Nicklas Lidstrom, despite Lidstrom's superior defense AND offense. Derian Hatcher's another example. Good stay-at-home guy, somehow people thought he was a superstar when he wasn't even the best defensive defenseman ON THE STARS. And the Stars also had two very good defensive defensemen who were pretty darn good offensively as well; Hatcher's only actual win was in his dirty physical game.

Phaneuf has seemed to improve a good deal defensively since his Calgary days; but it's at the expense of offense. Similar to Bouwmeester in that respect, although Bouwmeester has always played a much better defensive game. At the time of the trade, though, White was the better defensive defenseman. Last season it was hard to judge White's play because he played some of the season with Lidstrom and some with a shuffling of other partners. We should get a better idea this year where he is currently at compared to Phaneuf and if they're still "not that far apart" as I said.

One wonders. Filppula is supposedly "the piece" going to Calgary for Bouwmeester. Detroit would probably want a forward in return. What if it's Matt Stajan? That would change things up a bit. Say Filppula and Ericsson as has been rumored for Jbo and Stajan, with no picks.

It would then combine the JBo and Dion deals together into this as far as what left and what's still there:

Phaneuf, Leopold, Aulie, Sjostrom, Sutter, and a 1st for Filppula, Kotsopolous, Ericsson, and Babchuk.

Obviously it doesn't turn out too well. But if you add in players who left via free agency or waivers:

-Phaneuf, Leopold, Aulie, Sjostrom, Sutter and a 1st for Filppula, Hagman, Kotsopolous, Mayers, Ericsson, and Babchuk.

It's still trading for forward scoring; more specifically, Finnish scoring. Also, a couple grinders. Adding a couple big defensemen on the back end as well. Leopold is junk, Sjostrom is the worst grinder in the deal.

So toss out the junk pieces and we can tear it down to:

-Phaneuf, Aulie, Sutter, 1st for Filppula, Hagman, Ericsson, Babchuk

Dion for Flip is probably close to fair value, if not in Calgary's favor. So cut it off.

-Aulie, Sutter, 1st for Hagman, Ericsson, Babchuk

Now it's mortgaging the future for big defenseman and a fast winger, none of whom are core players, although Ericsson still has the potential to turn into a top-pairing defenseman. So again, it's a matter of mismanaging the assets received after the Phaneuf trade rather than losing the trade itself.

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08-13-2012, 07:46 PM
  #266
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If he's moved it better be for an upgrade at center. And if its Scott Gomez Feaster must have lost his meds.
Oh snap, I forgot about Gomez!! The hell with Couturier, that's a trade I would pull the trigger on!

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08-14-2012, 02:23 AM
  #267
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I heard Holmgren never knew Dion was available and was pissed when he found out as he wanted him we probably could have gotten one of M Richards or Jeff Carter.
This thread is awfully depressing.

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08-15-2012, 11:48 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I think we could of got Giroux and a 2nd for Dion back then and I think Holmgren would of done that deal.
It's very, very unlikely that Holmgren would have done that deal.

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08-15-2012, 02:19 PM
  #269
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It's very, very unlikely that Holmgren would have done that deal.
Based on their organizational depth and needs at the time, I strongly disagree.

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08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
  #270
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With the current state of cba negotiations, Bouwmeester isn't going anywhere, but with a cba I'd do boumeester and 2013 3rd for Jonathon Ericsson, Calle Jarnkrok and 1st round pick (Detroit's option of 2013 or 2014).

or replace Jarnkrok with a contract extended Filppula

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08-15-2012, 06:20 PM
  #271
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With the current state of cba negotiations, Bouwmeester isn't going anywhere, but with a cba I'd do boumeester and 2013 3rd for Jonathon Ericsson, Calle Jarnkrok and 1st round pick (Detroit's option of 2013 or 2014).

or replace Jarnkrok with a contract extended Filppula
We don't upgrade any position and greatly downgrade defense and only add a mid first round pick and I would be pissed if we took that.

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08-16-2012, 07:56 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
It's very, very unlikely that Holmgren would have done that deal.
How is that very, very unlikely that Holmgren would have done that deal? Holmgren had a mancrush on Phaneuf, and during that time Giroux wasn't a big star on the team. The deal could have been made.

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08-16-2012, 10:20 AM
  #273
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How is that very, very unlikely that Holmgren would have done that deal? Holmgren had a mancrush on Phaneuf, and during that time Giroux wasn't a big star on the team. The deal could have been made.
Wasting your time lol, how do you not have this guy on your ignore list yet?

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08-16-2012, 10:28 AM
  #274
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Holmgren would've been out on his ass if there was even a smidgeon of a rumour involving Giroux. Clarke was high on him for a reason. Don't know why you're bickering back and forth over it anyway. Whether or not Giroux would have been involved is irrelevant to anything being discussed.

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08-16-2012, 02:55 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
It's very, very unlikely that Holmgren would have done that deal.
are you kidding me? they totally would have done that deal in a heart beat. i understand your upset that we are probs getting flip but dion could have got us claude easily.

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