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Overall, will the CBJ be better, worse or the same without Rick Nash?

View Poll Results: Will the CBJ be better, worse or the same after Rick Nash
Better 53 66.25%
Worse 10 12.50%
Same 17 21.25%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-12-2012, 09:42 PM
  #51
Robert
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
And if this fanbase wasn't so quick to lynch anyone it thinks of as even slightly negatively affecting the franchise, I wouldn't mind such a discussion. But I don't trust most of the folks here to actually have such an objective discussion.
And Ryan Johansen says thank you....

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08-13-2012, 01:21 AM
  #52
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And Ryan Johansen says thank you....
The horse has been dyed magenta today.


honestly, are you getting some kind of commission every time you confuse the hell out of me with a non-sequitur or something? You've been doing it awfully frequently of late.

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Old
08-13-2012, 08:22 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by CalBuckeyeRob View Post
During his 9 seasons the team averaged 75 points and 196 goals per season. Based on that, I expect they will be about the same or maybe slightly better.

The problem with this analysis, is that Nash was never the problem. The problem was the failure to develop/draft/acquire other top tier talent to go with him. The trade improves the depth of talent but does nothing to add top tier talent to the team. Until that happens the team is going to finish 12-15th in the West.
No there were multiple problems. Trying to find "the problem" is just a silly exercise. We never had to have Rick Nash to win, therefore your premise falls apart quickly. Every team needs to develop and acquire the right combination of players, whether "they" needed to be top tier is a matter for debate. Developing said players to surround Nash is certainly even more debatable.

This simply goes back to something I said years go. If you are going to spend 7.8 million on a single player, you better make sure it's the right player and make sure it's the right time. We don't know if he was the right player, but the timing was certainly off.

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08-13-2012, 08:58 AM
  #54
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Since their inception, the Jackets have been about as poor a team as any in the history of the NHL. The Washington Capitals were worse for their first 8 years but turned the corner in year 9 and became a respectable team. That timeline has already bypassed the Jackets and the franchise is nowhere close to where Washington was by year 10 of their history.

http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/washing...tals-8871.html

Nash had the misfortune of being drafted by this franchise. He had a very nice career in Columbus despite the fact that he was surrounded with AHL caliber talent for the most part. The collection of forwards on last season's squad was nothing shy of pitiful. There wasn't a single forward on the team who would have been on the NHL roster of an elite team, save perhaps Dorsette and MacKenzie who are third/fourth liners.

The addition of the forwards obtained in the trade and Foligno's acquisition virtually guarantee an improvement over last year's team even with the departure of Nash. If Nash would have been Stamkos, then I would have come to the same conclusion. It's pretty hard to fathom that the changes which have been made won't allow for the improvement of the worst team in the NHL.

However, the continued presence of the worst goalie in the NHL on the roster could allow an improved roster to replicate last season's results. 30-35 appearances by Mason will easily erase what improvements were made in the forward department during the off season.

At the end of the day, the player who will experience the most improvement this next season with respect to team play is Nash himself. He gets to play on a legitimate NHL team for the first time in his entire career.

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08-13-2012, 09:09 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Nash had the misfortune of being drafted by this franchise. He had a very nice career in Columbus despite the fact that he was surrounded with AHL caliber talent for the most part. The collection of forwards on last season's squad was nothing shy of pitiful. Other than Prospal-who is a million years old and winding down a successful career- there wasn't a single forward on the team who would have been on the NHL roster of an elite team, save perhaps Dorsette and MacKenzie who are third/fourth liners.
Uh, what? Carter just won the cup. Vermette was a big part of Phoenix's run to the Western Conference Final. Brassard could likely play for most "elite" teams. Umberger as well. The Bluejackets were not completely devoid of forward talent last season.

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08-13-2012, 09:23 AM
  #56
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Uh, what? Carter just won the cup. Vermette was a big part of Phoenix's run to the Western Conference Final. Brassard could likely play for most "elite" teams. Umberger as well. The Bluejackets were not completely devoid of forward talent last season.
Carter was an abomination during his tenure here. He obviously fit on the Kings (only due to their completely anemic offense at the time of the trade), but he wasn't the same player he was here. I'll grant you this one. I will say that I doubt he'll be being celebrated in LA in a few years. He showed his true character while he was here and it will resurface. Probably sooner rather than later.

Vermette had 37 points in 82 games. Not much production from a guy who was a second and first line center for most of the season in Columbus and who had plenty of PP time. Nothing elite about that.

Brassard and Umberger on elite teams? Brassard will be lucky to be in the NHL in a few years. Umberger's play last season was putrid save for a meaningless late season surge. Umberger's mediocre production was only surpassed by his complete lack of heart. I wonder how many times Howson has been rebuffed (or just plain laughed at) when he's mentioned RJ in trade discussions?

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08-13-2012, 09:37 AM
  #57
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I don't know much about the Blue Jackets but I think they will be a better team and here is why. Last season, the Blue Jackets lost Wisniewski to a hefty suspension to start the season, the team was without a decent winger in Huselius because he was injured. I do like Steve Mason but he struggled last season.

Now, even though the Blue Jackets traded Rick Nash, they are going into this season with an improved team. They get a full year of Jack Johnson, Ryan Murray seems to be mature enough for the NHL, they brought in a quality goalie in Bobrovsky, yes they traded Nash but they got 2 decent NHL players that can match his production, IMO. And they have Foligno to replace Huselius(?). I think Foligno is underrated and looked at as a 3rd liner, he can make plays for himself and be an effective top 6 winger.

I don't know how much they have improved, but I think they will be a better team, just my opinion, though.

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08-13-2012, 09:57 AM
  #58
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I voted "better", because I think the philosophy of building a team around a system rather than around a player is superior.

Nash the player could play and flourish in either environment, as he proved under Hitchcock. Columbus simply could not properly staff a team without moving a big asset in order to bring in multiple, capable, competent players. Nash is a big loss, a player we may not see replaced in terms of production for years here in Columbus, but sacrificing that piece of the equation allowed us to properly fill multiple roles.

This isn't about Nash, its about an organizational philosophy, and I think Howson got it right this time....now go get a second promising goalie Scotty.


Last edited by Nordique: 08-13-2012 at 10:03 AM.
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08-13-2012, 10:08 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Carter was an abomination during his tenure here. He obviously fit on the Kings (only due to their completely anemic offense at the time of the trade), but he wasn't the same player he was here. I'll grant you this one. I will say that I doubt he'll be being celebrated in LA in a few years. He showed his true character while he was here and it will resurface. Probably sooner rather than later.

Vermette had 37 points in 82 games. Not much production from a guy who was a second and first line center for most of the season in Columbus and who had plenty of PP time. Nothing elite about that.

Brassard and Umberger on elite teams? Brassard will be lucky to be in the NHL in a few years. Umberger's play last season was putrid save for a meaningless late season surge. Umberger's mediocre production was only surpassed by his complete lack of heart. I wonder how many times Howson has been rebuffed (or just plain laughed at) when he's mentioned RJ in trade discussions?
So your criteria for elite has suddenly changed, apparently. Carter played a major role on an elite team after he was traded from Columbus. Prior to coming to the Bluejackets he was an integral part of another elite team. Just because he played poorly for the Jackets doesn't mean the guy is incapable of playing for an elite team, as he proved in LA.

No, Vermette is not an elite player. But that wasn't your criteria - you said the Jackets had no one outside of Nash, Prospal, and a couple of 4th line enforcers that could play for an elite team. Vermette was traded from Columbus to a team that finished third in the Conference and went to the Western Conference Final. Sounds like he had no trouble playing for an elite team. Would you care to address why he wasn't immediately demoted to the AHL upon being traded like your original statement about the forward talent on this team would suggest?

Brassard just put up 41 points on the second line on the worst team in the NHL. I have no doubt he would be a sought after free agent if he was a UFA this offseason. In fact, a team like New York (a team that lost some of their center depth this offseason) could probably use a guy like Brassard. I'm sure they're not the only elite team that would be interested in a 24 year old center who just had a 41 point regular season.

And Umberger is somewhat analogous to Dubinsky. He's a guy capable of playing center, probably a better winger, who is defensively responsible and can score goals. He would probably play on an elite team's third line at this point in his career, but to act like he is completely incapable of playing for an elite team is idiotic. He was 20/20 this season. Not many elite teams thumb their noses at a defensively responsible guy capable of putting up 40 points.

Just because you don't particularly like any of these guys doesn't mean they aren't good players, that they aren't capable of playing for an elite team (two of whom proved you wrong before last season ended), and that an elite team would not be interested in them.

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08-13-2012, 11:39 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
I voted "better", because I think the philosophy of building a team around a system rather than around a player is superior.

Nash the player could play and flourish in either environment, as he proved under Hitchcock. Columbus simply could not properly staff a team without moving a big asset in order to bring in multiple, capable, competent players. Nash is a big loss, a player we may not see replaced in terms of production for years here in Columbus, but sacrificing that piece of the equation allowed us to properly fill multiple roles.

This isn't about Nash, its about an organizational philosophy, and I think Howson got it right this time....now go get a second promising goalie Scotty.
The goalie situation is most concerning to me, scoring is an issue but who knows what this new group can do especially with a defense that should move the puck and put up points. Coaching is third on my list but the least of my concerns, Richards is not a rookie by any means, he simply needs to prove he can make the playoffs and win.

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08-13-2012, 11:50 AM
  #61
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Brassard just put up 41 points on the second line on the worst team in the NHL.
Is this supposed to be impressive?

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08-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Since their inception, the Jackets have been about as poor a team as any in the history of the NHL. The Washington Capitals were worse for their first 8 years but turned the corner in year 9 and became a respectable team. That timeline has already bypassed the Jackets and the franchise is nowhere close to where Washington was by year 10 of their history.

http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/washing...tals-8871.html
The Kansas City Scouts/Colorado Rockies/New Jersey Devils did the following in their first 11 years.

1 playoff appearance (and got swept)

Registered 532 points out of a possible 1760 (.302 point percentage)

Had 12 head coaches, including 1 short-term interim

Made absolutely baffling trades, including losing a 1st overall pick as compensation for signing a free agent who wouldn't have made a difference on the best day of his life

Picked in the top-5 pretty much every year, with the only exceptions being times that they traded out of the spot

Drafted poorly, with their best home-grown picks being depth players

In one of the worst trades in history, acquired two depth players from the Islanders (Dave Cameron and Bob Lorimer) in exchange for a 1st-rounder. The players made no difference at all, and the Islanders drafted Pat LaFontaine.

In the 27 years since, New Jersey has missed the playoffs only five times (three of those coming in the five years immediately following the time frame I've used) and has won three Stanley Cups.

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08-13-2012, 12:39 PM
  #63
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Is this supposed to be impressive?
Did I say it was impressive? Or are you trying to build a strawman? I commented that he could likely play on an elite team. He's a decent player who would excel on a team that doesn't have a love affair with the bottom of the league standings. He'd be a sought after addition in free agency, especially when you consider the premium NHL teams place on centers.

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08-13-2012, 12:48 PM
  #64
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Did I say it was impressive? Or are you trying to build a strawman? I commented that he could likely play on an elite team. He's a decent player who would excel on a team that doesn't have a love affair with the bottom of the league standings. He'd be a sought after addition in free agency, especially when you consider the premium NHL teams place on centers.
If it's a strawman it's by your own design. You used that point in the conversation as a segue into teams being interested in Brassard. I'm trying to figure out what you using as a basis for this belief that Brassard would be sought after in FA. I think there would be interest in him as a FA. Many role players have played on elite teams, so that's a meaningless part of the conversation.

His point total really doesn't justify anything, so why was it there? I am simply trying to get clarification.

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08-13-2012, 01:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
If it's a strawman it's by your own design. You used that point in the conversation as a segue into teams being interested in Brassard. I'm trying to figure out what you using as a basis for this belief that Brassard would be sought after in FA. I think there would be interest in him as a FA. Many role players have played on elite teams, so that's a meaningless part of the conversation.

His point total really doesn't justify anything, so why was it there? I am simply trying to get clarification.
Let me quote the passage I had an issue with in Cyclone's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock
Other than Prospal-who is a million years old and winding down a successful career- there wasn't a single forward on the team who would have been on the NHL roster of an elite team, save perhaps Dorsette and MacKenzie who are third/fourth liners.
All I have to do to refute that argument is prove that there are other players on the Jackets 2011-2012 season roster that are capable of playing for an elite team. I used Brassard's 41 point total to make the point that someone capable of putting up those numbers, especially someone on the worst team in the NHL, is certainly capable of playing on an elite team. Maybe he'd be a third liner, maybe he'd be a second liner. Maybe he'd play wing, I don't know. But don't act like someone who puts up 40+ points on a horrible team wouldn't be able to make an elite team's roster. If he was putzing around at 20 points for the last couple of seasons I may agree with Cyclone's evaluation of Brassard. However, just because Brassard plays for Columbus doesn't make him a bad player, and it doesn't mean an elite team couldn't use him or wouldn't want him on their roster.

And the strawman is you misrepresenting my argument. I never said Brassard's point total was "impressive". You acted like that was the point I was trying to make, when it most certainly was not.

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08-13-2012, 01:13 PM
  #66
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All I have to do to refute that argument is prove that there are other players on the Jackets 2011-2012 season roster that are capable of playing for an elite team. I used Brassard's 41 point total to make the point that someone capable of putting up those numbers, especially someone on the worst team in the NHL, is certainly capable of playing on an elite team.
He's a NHL player, trying to make the assertion he could play on an elite team simply because he scored 41 points on a poor team is grounded in simplistic and superficial logic. One example is the hit and miss performance of Zherdev. I'm not suggesting Brassard is anything like Zherdev, simply pointing out that point totals are just one small part of a players game. A trip to an elite team could also translate into a quicker retirement party for Brassard as well. Not likely, but possible. One could say that Brassard's point total was propped up by minutes he would not received on another team in roles that he wouldn't be trusted in. The transition into a role player on an elite team could be a ticket out of the league for Brassard.

There are arguments to be made that would support that Brassard would be in demand as a FA, a couple you touched on. His 41 points on our team isn't one of them. At least not a very good one.

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08-13-2012, 02:50 PM
  #67
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I love Rick Nash, and don't think Howsen hit the home run he promised with this, but bottom line is they can't get worse, and something had to break.

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08-13-2012, 03:15 PM
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He's a NHL player, trying to make the assertion he could play on an elite team simply because he scored 41 points on a poor team is grounded in simplistic and superficial logic.
To be fair, the point he's attempting to refute doesn't appear to be grounded in any logic at all beyond "we finished last and I hate these players". So it's not as though he has to aim high.

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08-13-2012, 08:25 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
There are arguments to be made that would support that Brassard would be in demand as a FA, a couple you touched on. His 41 points on our team isn't one of them. At least not a very good one.
41 points is not great but it does boil down to 0.5 per game based on 82 games, something 100's of NHL players are expected to do though. I think the point was innocent in nature, he was just taking a shot at giving some hope to Brassards future in the NHL.

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08-13-2012, 10:20 PM
  #70
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41 points is not great but it does boil down to 0.5 per game based on 82 games, something 100's of NHL players are expected to do though. I think the point was innocent in nature, he was just taking a shot at giving some hope to Brassards future in the NHL.
Not really what I was trying to do. I was trying to make the point that it's reasonable to expect Brassard to put up 40+ points on another team because he has shown he is capable of doing that in Columbus, and 40+ point players are useful on any team, including elite ones. I suppose the quality of team Brassard is currently on is irrelevant, but there's no reason to expect Brassard's production to drop off of a cliff on a better team. Obviously I made the point poorly, but it doesn't really have to be all that well made in order to refute the notion that there aren't any forwards on this team that would make an elite team's roster.

I can't predict Brassard's future in the NHL, or his future in Columbus. However, I don't think it's completely unreasonable for a 24 year old like Brassard to continue to produce at the level he has been for the next several years.

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08-14-2012, 02:23 AM
  #71
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To be fair, the point he's attempting to refute doesn't appear to be grounded in any logic at all beyond "we finished last and I hate these players". So it's not as though he has to aim high.
If you believe that there are elite quality forwards among Umberger, Brassard and Vermette, well, then.........

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08-14-2012, 05:30 AM
  #72
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If you believe that there are elite quality forwards among Umberger, Brassard and Vermette, well, then.........
Except that isn't what you said. And you either know it and are purposefully moving the target because your other one took some hits or you haven't even been paying attention to your own posts.

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08-14-2012, 07:08 AM
  #73
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41 points is not great but it does boil down to 0.5 per game based on 82 games, something 100's of NHL players are expected to do though. I think the point was innocent in nature, he was just taking a shot at giving some hope to Brassards future in the NHL.
Not to be rude, but tea? China?

I gave a counter in my post. I understand his intent, which was obvious since I spent time disputing it.

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08-14-2012, 07:12 AM
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Not really what I was trying to do. I was trying to make the point that it's reasonable to expect Brassard to put up 40+ points on another team because he has shown he is capable of doing that in Columbus, and 40+ point players are useful on any team, including elite ones.
Sure he could put up 40+ points on another team. You assertion that it could/would happen on an elite team leaves something to be desired. We're not even sure he would play well enough to even get enough ice time in appropriate roles. If he goes to an elite team, does he even get much PP time for example?

However, a poor team desperate for talented centers give him ice time that he doesn't deserve? Sure, we've already proven that. We're the ones that did it.

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08-14-2012, 07:15 AM
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To be fair, the point he's attempting to refute doesn't appear to be grounded in any logic at all beyond "we finished last and I hate these players". So it's not as though he has to aim high.
To be honest, I didn't care what he was attacking or defending. I saw something I wanted clarification on. Since his entire premise is surrounded around point production, there really isn't anything else to talk about. It's far to simplistic of an argument. I don't see anything to suggest that role was considered, nor Brassard's play in other zones. I also saw nothing suggesting he considered what role Brassard would have on this "elite" team and how that would impact point production.

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