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Aside from Carey, do we have a "star"?

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Old
08-12-2012, 09:27 PM
  #101
Talks to Goalposts
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It's sad that we try to pass off players like Max as 'stars.' I guess we're just so starved for one that we just try to imagine players as being better than they really are. That's what we did with Koivu for years.

Max is not a star. Like his teammates Price and Subban, he has star potential but he's not there yet. He had a very good season and put up some nice numbers on a bad team. That doesn't put him into the 'star' category.

He's a legit 1st line player. He could turn out to be a very good player maybe even a great one. But it's way too soon to start calling him a 'star'. He's not there yet and he may never be.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone has their own definition of star to the point where the term becomes meaningless.

The list of LW better than Pacioretty is awfully short IMO though. LW is a lower impact position though so that doesn't mean the same thing that having a top 10 center or defenseman would mean though.

Pacioretty and a top 10-15 center would be the core of solid first line though.

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08-12-2012, 10:23 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by thrillhouse99 View Post
Optimism

This thread has it.
It has Kool-Aid too.

Potential doesn't = star. Not yet.

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08-12-2012, 10:39 PM
  #103
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That is incorrect.

He sucked in the playoffs with 9 points in 14 games, which is only a 50 point pace.

His 34 pts in the final 41 games is almost an identical pace as his 31 points in his first 37 games.

He is talented enough to score 65 pts in his sleep. It really was a pathetic effort by him from start to finish.
9 points in 14 games is amazing when the games are all 1-0 or 2-1.

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Old
08-12-2012, 11:07 PM
  #104
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Superstars, there's only Carey.
I consider him Superstar, because he's really a top 5 goalie and no one can argue (Only the haters can.) Justlike the Sedin's, Chara and Ward.
Notice that I did not include Crosby, He's on another planet.

Stars : Markov, Patches, Plekanec, Subban.

They're stars because they'd be a fit on ANY team. Just like P. Kane or Letang would be a great addititon to ANY team but are not the best...
Underlined:Was a SS, could be.
Bolded: Could become a SS.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:47 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
He was sulking? Did he whine and cry? No he didn't. He was used less, didn't complain about it, and did what was asked of him. Ya, he made some mistakes, kind of normal when you have a guy that is so focused on explosive offense but is asked to be defensively responsible.

Ya, he's a spoil brat and Semin is a PoS.
It is common knowledge that Ovechkin wasn't happy with Hunter and if you actually watched the Caps in the playoffs you would have seen him pouting on the bench and rolling his eyes at Hunter.

It was on every highlight package and the commentators picked up on it during the game.

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:26 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by thrillhouse99 View Post
Optimism

This thread has it.
No.

Semantics

This thread has it.

I honestly cannot believe some people are getting on their high-horse and look down on people with a different opinion of the meaning of a word. im just waiting for someone to go on how we should tank to get that 'star' player

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:42 AM
  #107
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Which exactly serves my point. Max Pacioretty has shown a better development then Taylor Hall who seems to have developped a talent to become injured more then anything else.

If Hall = star

then

Pacioretty = star

There are star players who don't necessarily score 30 goals from season to season and still have that level of notoriety. I think that what makes Max Pacioretty a star, is his style of play and his work ethic more then his goal production. There's not that many players who are gamebreakers and bring the same edge. Also the only way he stop producing 30 goals per season it'll be because he has done another major concussin or sign a big juicy contract and stop caring about how he performs.
First of all, how can you say Pacioretty has shown a better development than Taylor Hall when both players have pretty similar numbers, with Hall having a better ppg average after playing nearly one full season less than Pacioretty? The only reason Hall may not be as developed as much as Pacioretty at the moment is because Hall is 3 years younger. Secondly, how can Hall, or anyone for that matter, develop a talent of getting injured? For someone who's so struck on Max Pacioretty, you'd think you'd be more understanding that freak injuries happen in this league. Most of Hall's problems has been his shoulder over the past few years. If you followed what was going on with him you'd know that he just had this shoulder surgery repaired which means he shouldn't be having these injuries as frequently as he had in the past or at all for that matter. I'm not saying Hall will be a superstar in this league but I'm willing to bet that by the time he gets as many games under his belt as Pacioretty there'll be no doubt in anyone's mind that Hall will be more of a star of the two.

Just to make matters clear, I'm not trying to say either player is a star at the moment. IMO, and sticking with the topic, Price is the closest thing to a star the Habs have right now. On occasion Price has shown he can truly dominate a game and has proven he got all the talent in the world to become a star in the NHL. If he can show these skills on a more consistent basis there's little doubt in my mind that he can actually become a superstar in this league. Right now players like Subban, Pacioretty and Hall with the Oilers, although have shown tremendous talent so far in their young careers, still have a little ways to come before they become true bona fide stars. They are the potential future stars in the league who still have a lot to prove.

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Old
08-13-2012, 02:41 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Great One View Post
First of all, how can you say Pacioretty has shown a better development than Taylor Hall when both players have pretty similar numbers, with Hall having a better ppg average after playing nearly one full season less than Pacioretty? The only reason Hall may not be as developed as much as Pacioretty at the moment is because Hall is 3 years younger. Secondly, how can Hall, or anyone for that matter, develop a talent of getting injured? For someone who's so struck on Max Pacioretty, you'd think you'd be more understanding that freak injuries happen in this league. Most of Hall's problems has been his shoulder over the past few years. If you followed what was going on with him you'd know that he just had this shoulder surgery repaired which means he shouldn't be having these injuries as frequently as he had in the past or at all for that matter. I'm not saying Hall will be a superstar in this league but I'm willing to bet that by the time he gets as many games under his belt as Pacioretty there'll be no doubt in anyone's mind that Hall will be more of a star of the two.

Just to make matters clear, I'm not trying to say either player is a star at the moment. IMO, and sticking with the topic, Price is the closest thing to a star the Habs have right now. On occasion Price has shown he can truly dominate a game and has proven he got all the talent in the world to become a star in the NHL. If he can show these skills on a more consistent basis there's little doubt in my mind that he can actually become a superstar in this league. Right now players like Subban, Pacioretty and Hall with the Oilers, although have shown tremendous talent so far in their young careers, still have a little ways to come before they become true bona fide stars. They are the potential future stars in the league who still have a lot to prove.
As you said, Hall jumped in this league at 18, on a very young and unexperimented squad with a ton of pressure on the shoulders to be the offensive leader of his team.. In comparison, Tyler Seguin had the chance to develop properly with experimented and talended players to learn from around.. Im not sure thats pretty smart from the Oilers management to bring their kids so young with so little support, thats pretty risky, RNH has been severely injured last year as well, those kids havent finished to grow up yet and are asked to compete against the cream of the cream, men who are playing them very tough.. As for Taylor Hall, with better surrounding. the kid should become one of the best wingers in the league, the kid is an exceptional and as much as I like Paccioretty, Hall is just way more skilled..

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Old
08-13-2012, 03:20 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
No.
yes.

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08-13-2012, 03:35 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by thrillhouse99 View Post
yes.
great rebuttal.

it's like that scene in BASEketball

"dude!"
"dude!!!"
"dude?"
"dude!"
"dude."
"dude..."
"i guess you got a point"

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Old
08-13-2012, 03:42 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
great rebuttal.

it's like that scene in BASEketball

"dude!"
"dude!!!"
"dude?"
"dude!"
"dude."
"dude..."
"i guess you got a point"
LOL, its exactly like that scene in baseketball!

Thrillhouse posts a humorous observation, masterdecoy responds with an all too serious "NO!"

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08-13-2012, 03:55 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by thrillhouse99 View Post
LOL, its exactly like that scene in baseketball!

Thrillhouse posts a humorous observation
fooled me

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:18 AM
  #113
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Price is a star Subban will be and patch will most likely be one

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:59 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Superstars, there's only Carey.
I consider him Superstar, because he's really a top 5 goalie and no one can argue (Only the haters can.) Justlike the Sedin's, Chara and Ward.
Notice that I did not include Crosby, He's on another planet.

Stars : Markov, Patches, Plekanec, Subban.

They're stars because they'd be a fit on ANY team. Just like P. Kane or Letang would be a great addititon to ANY team but are not the best...
Underlined:Was a SS, could be.
Bolded: Could become a SS.

It's very easy to argue, actually. To be considered top 5 you have to play like a top 5, there's no chance he's done that, zero. It's all mythical.

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08-13-2012, 08:10 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Great One View Post
First of all, how can you say Pacioretty has shown a better development than Taylor Hall when both players have pretty similar numbers, with Hall having a better ppg average after playing nearly one full season less than Pacioretty? The only reason Hall may not be as developed as much as Pacioretty at the moment is because Hall is 3 years younger. Secondly, how can Hall, or anyone for that matter, develop a talent of getting injured? For someone who's so struck on Max Pacioretty, you'd think you'd be more understanding that freak injuries happen in this league. Most of Hall's problems has been his shoulder over the past few years. If you followed what was going on with him you'd know that he just had this shoulder surgery repaired which means he shouldn't be having these injuries as frequently as he had in the past or at all for that matter. I'm not saying Hall will be a superstar in this league but I'm willing to bet that by the time he gets as many games under his belt as Pacioretty there'll be no doubt in anyone's mind that Hall will be more of a star of the two.

Just to make matters clear, I'm not trying to say either player is a star at the moment. IMO, and sticking with the topic, Price is the closest thing to a star the Habs have right now. On occasion Price has shown he can truly dominate a game and has proven he got all the talent in the world to become a star in the NHL. If he can show these skills on a more consistent basis there's little doubt in my mind that he can actually become a superstar in this league. Right now players like Subban, Pacioretty and Hall with the Oilers, although have shown tremendous talent so far in their young careers, still have a little ways to come before they become true bona fide stars. They are the potential future stars in the league who still have a lot to prove.
You sir........are absolutely correct!

If Hall was a Canadien and Pacioretty was an Oiler we wouldn't be having this conversation on this board. Hall would be touted as a bonafied superstar in the making and Pacioretty would be a very good young player who is on the cusp of being an all-star calibre forward.

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Old
08-13-2012, 08:11 AM
  #116
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You can tell it is off season when a thread purely about semantics reaches 5 pages.

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08-13-2012, 08:43 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
It is common knowledge that Ovechkin wasn't happy with Hunter and if you actually watched the Caps in the playoffs you would have seen him pouting on the bench and rolling his eyes at Hunter.

It was on every highlight package and the commentators picked up on it during the game.
I did watch the caps actually, and did notice he was unhappy or pissed at times, but how do you turn this into "he's a spoiled brat" and "he was sulking" and then use his point total to further back up this opinion of yours is pretty ridiculous.
The superstar was used for 13-15min at times, and not because he was bad, but because Hunter had a system and he felt other players were better suited for it, especially when holding a lead. So ya, maybe Ovechkin wasn't overly enthused with that, big freaking deal. He didn't express any displeasement in the media, was the same overly excited guy when his team scored or won.
But yes, media folks make it into a story and you ate it right up. Kind of like the Keith Jones analysis of Radulov, where he just cherry picked a handful of bad back checks and conveniently left out the times he actually did back check and also the many offensive opportunities he created.

Ovechkin had good playoffs, you won't win this argument.

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08-13-2012, 09:20 AM
  #118
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Price = Star

Markov = Was a star but needs to show it to be called one again

PK = Star quality but not yet there

Patches = Star potential but more likely a 25/30-25/30 guy which is still great.

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Old
08-13-2012, 10:09 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I did watch the caps actually, and did notice he was unhappy or pissed at times, but how do you turn this into "he's a spoiled brat" and "he was sulking" and then use his point total to further back up this opinion of yours is pretty ridiculous.
The superstar was used for 13-15min at times, and not because he was bad, but because Hunter had a system and he felt other players were better suited for it, especially when holding a lead. So ya, maybe Ovechkin wasn't overly enthused with that, big freaking deal. He didn't express any displeasement in the media, was the same overly excited guy when his team scored or won.
But yes, media folks make it into a story and you ate it right up. Kind of like the Keith Jones analysis of Radulov, where he just cherry picked a handful of bad back checks and conveniently left out the times he actually did back check and also the many offensive opportunities he created.

Ovechkin had good playoffs, you won't win this argument.
This post is typical fanboy excuse making.

As for the bolded part........how do you win an arguement based on pure subjective analysis???? I have my opinion and you have your opinion.

I don't like to debate with people who only see the small picture. It is like playing chess with a pidgeon................at the end of the game it will just knock the pieces over, take a dump on the board and walk away thinking it won.

BTW Radulov is also a bum

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08-13-2012, 11:21 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
This post is typical fanboy excuse making.

As for the bolded part........how do you win an arguement based on pure subjective analysis???? I have my opinion and you have your opinion.

I don't like to debate with people who only see the small picture. It is like playing chess with a pidgeon................at the end of the game it will just knock the pieces over, take a dump on the board and walk away thinking it won.

BTW Radulov is also a bum
You realize we are on a DISCUSSION board right? Argument, discussion, pretty much the same thing. We argue over our opinions, this isn't new. If you don't think you will ever be capable of having someone change your mind about a certain subject, and if you don't want to listen to others, then why discuss it to begin with.

I'm no fanboy btw, I don't even like Ovechkin. I just think saying ''hey, I watched the games'' ''Ovechkin seem to pout a couple times'' ''he has 9pts in 14'' = he sucked in the POs, is, to put it bluntly, flat out stupid.
You don't even try to look at the reasoning behind these observations of yours, you just jump straight to conclusions. Where as I actually do like to look at the reasons. What type of system? What's his teammates's production? How tight were the games? etc..
Quite ironic that after that you dare say that you don't like to debate with people that don't see the big picture.
Maybe you should look in the mirror, you'd realize you're far from seeing the big picture. Here's what you do ''he sulked''=he didn't like Hunter. Way to see the big picture there buddy!
I'll give you credit for one thing that you do good though, making yourself look bad.


Last edited by Kriss E: 08-13-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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Old
08-13-2012, 12:26 PM
  #121
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You can tell it is off season when a thread purely about semantics reaches 5 pages.
hehe yeah...

we should have a poll up defining what is elite, star, superstar, goon, scrub, bum, studly-wobbly, dirty and so on, then we wouldn't need half the posts on this board.

"this guy's a star"
"no he isn't, check the poll sucka"

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:09 PM
  #122
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It's very easy to argue, actually. To be considered top 5 you have to play like a top 5, there's no chance he's done that, zero. It's all mythical.
Go ahead, name 5 CLEAR CUT names.

lundqvist... Maybe Rinne ? Maybe Brodeur ? Maybe Quick ?

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08-13-2012, 01:46 PM
  #123
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As you said, Hall jumped in this league at 18, on a very young and unexperimented squad with a ton of pressure on the shoulders to be the offensive leader of his team.. In comparison, Tyler Seguin had the chance to develop properly with experimented and talended players to learn from around.. Im not sure thats pretty smart from the Oilers management to bring their kids so young with so little support, thats pretty risky, RNH has been severely injured last year as well, those kids havent finished to grow up yet and are asked to compete against the cream of the cream, men who are playing them very tough.. As for Taylor Hall, with better surrounding. the kid should become one of the best wingers in the league, the kid is an exceptional and as much as I like Paccioretty, Hall is just way more skilled..
Normally i'd agree with you when it comes to bringing a player in too young, but with regards to Hall, what other option did they have? He already dominated the junior ranks and it was pretty clear he really had nothing left to prove there. If we sent him to the minors it would have ate up a year of his ELC. And besides, IMO the kid was ready for the big's. Hall had a pretty good shot at 30 goals in both of his first 2 years in the league. 30 goals is no small feat for a 18 year old kid. He proved he was NHL ready and you can't fault the Oiler's organization for that.

Like I said in an earlier post regarding his injuries, most of his problems have come from his ****y shoulder that's been bothering him since his junior days. This shoulder has recently been surgically repaired and doctors are very confident that the same problems he's had in the past are no longer a concern. Of course we won't know this for sure until he gets a full season under his belt but if the doctor's as well as management feel he's fully recovered then that's good enough for me.

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08-13-2012, 02:25 PM
  #124
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Do we have an inferiority complex stemming from the Habs' lowly status last season? Is it comforting to believe we have a star? Leave those rationalizations to Leafs fans. Think team first.

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08-13-2012, 03:23 PM
  #125
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Normally i'd agree with you when it comes to bringing a player in too young, but with regards to Hall, what other option did they have? He already dominated the junior ranks and it was pretty clear he really had nothing left to prove there. If we sent him to the minors it would have ate up a year of his ELC. And besides, IMO the kid was ready for the big's. Hall had a pretty good shot at 30 goals in both of his first 2 years in the league. 30 goals is no small feat for a 18 year old kid. He proved he was NHL ready and you can't fault the Oiler's organization for that.

Like I said in an earlier post regarding his injuries, most of his problems have come from his ****y shoulder that's been bothering him since his junior days. This shoulder has recently been surgically repaired and doctors are very confident that the same problems he's had in the past are no longer a concern. Of course we won't know this for sure until he gets a full season under his belt but if the doctor's as well as management feel he's fully recovered then that's good enough for me.
Yes, of course you are right about Hall having nothing to prove in the minors anymore , I just think your line-up is too easy to crack for a kid in general and those kids have ton of pressure on the shoulder right off the bat, what isnt very sane IMO..

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