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It's August -- Why is Abdelkader Still Unsigned? (Signed to 4-yr deal, $1.7M per)

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Old
08-12-2012, 09:35 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
He demonstrated very well last season that he's nearly useless at center.
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
20+ points, +4 and won 52.9% of his faceoffs while taking the fourth most faceoffs on the team. We might like him more at wing, but the guy held his own at center for the bulk of the regular season.
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Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
Compare his career numbers to Helm's, then compare the numbers of the linemates each has had each season.

Abby is the best person for the 4th line center position within the Wings organization, and that's now his best position. The team is worse with Emmerton as the 4C. If you compare Abby at 2m to the free agents signed this off-season, I don't see how that is a bad contract. Hopefully, someone can step up to the 4C position next season to allow Abby to play wing.
The only things Abdelkader does better than Emmerton are take faceoffs and hit. Emmerton is a better offensive player, he simply wasn't given the opportunity Abdelkader was last year. Abdelkader is able to play much more offensively on the wing and created far more offense from the wing than he did at center. The same is true of Emmerton, but Emmerton spent a much larger portion of his season in the middle while playing fewer minutes with weaker linemates.

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The Wings haven't lacked skill the past few seasons, but they have lacked physicality and heart. Replacing Abby with Tootoo doesn't help that problem, but having both does.
Replacing Abby with Tootoo is good for the team. Not as good as having both, but having Tootoo is decidedly better.

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Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
Abby is a fine player. He has as much or more points than most fourth liners, and his linemates have mediocre his entire NHL career. He has spent time centering May, Emmerton, Maltby, etc. and has managed to keep those lines passable. Abby is a complementary player. He has good vision and puck control, but he cannot control the play himself. Having the aforementioned players on his line hasn't helped his play.
You forgot Franzen and Bertuzzi. You know, the "FAB" line. Remember it? One of the few instances in the past few years that Franzen HASN'T been centered by Dats or Z.

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Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post



Who else on the team will do these things?

Who else on the team will be 50%+ in the face off circle besides Dats?

Who else on the team will have 125+ hits as a forward?

Who else on the team can do all of these things? No one.
Hudler would have.

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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Abdelkader has far more in common with Tootoo than he does with anyone else in the bottom 6. The only difference between them really is that Tootoo is a better skater, and Abdelkader is bigger.

I'm not sure what Abdelkader has in common with the rest of the bottom 6. He's not as good offensively as some of them but he was far and away the most physical player of our forwards last year.
The main difference between Abdelkader and Tootoo is that Tootoo is a better version of Abdelkader. At least currently. Hopefully "future Abdelkader" will be better than Tootoo. I think if Abdelkader really is trying to get a Helm-type contract that he has probably played his last game with the Wings; Helm is far more important to the team and will be so going forward. Abdelkader needs to figure out whether he is willing to accept his role with the team, or to spend his time waiting until he either gives in, or is traded to another team where the process starts all over again. I think the fact that Helm received $2.125, Tootoo received $1.9m, and Eaves was signed on at $1.2m a couple years back with an equal or better resume to what Abs has now, we get a fair idea of Abdelkader's value. He should probably get $1.25, if he gets over $1.5m he's getting overpaid, and if it's over $2m he has compromising pictures of Holland.

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08-12-2012, 09:46 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Abdelkader put up more points than the LA Kings entire 4th line combined, offensively he's one of the better 4th liners in the league.
???

playoffs 2012

Trevor Lewis, 3 6 9 +7
Colin Fraser, 1 1 2 -1

Justin Abdelkader, 0 0 0 -5

well, i see 11 pts vs 0. and dont tell me the playoffs are not important.

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08-12-2012, 09:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
???

playoffs 2012

Trevor Lewis, 3 6 9 +7
Colin Fraser, 1 1 2 -1

Justin Abdelkader, 0 0 0 -5

well, i see 11 pts vs 0. and dont tell me the playoffs are not important.
The leading player on our team had 3 points. The guys you listed played 18 and 20 playoff games, compared to our 5.

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08-12-2012, 10:08 PM
  #104
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I think there is a deal in the works for either JBo or Yandle and they are waiting for things to settle on that front before locking up any more players/money.

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08-12-2012, 11:16 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The only things Abdelkader does better than Emmerton are take faceoffs and hit. Emmerton is a better offensive player, he simply wasn't given the opportunity Abdelkader was last year. Abdelkader is able to play much more offensively on the wing and created far more offense from the wing than he did at center. The same is true of Emmerton, but Emmerton spent a much larger portion of his season in the middle while playing fewer minutes with weaker linemates.
Emmerton hasn't been any good offensively since his days in Kingston. Abdelkader is better offensively, much better defensively, more physical, a better face-off man, he can kill penalties and has a better ratio of penalties drawn vs penalties taken.

Ice time isn't given, its earned and the reason Emmerton hasn't had much of a chance to play is because he is one of the worst players in the entire NHL.

There is a reason he has the worst corsi ratings in the league.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The main difference between Abdelkader and Tootoo is that Tootoo is a better version of Abdelkader. At least currently. Hopefully "future Abdelkader" will be better than Tootoo. I think if Abdelkader really is trying to get a Helm-type contract that he has probably played his last game with the Wings; Helm is far more important to the team and will be so going forward. Abdelkader needs to figure out whether he is willing to accept his role with the team, or to spend his time waiting until he either gives in, or is traded to another team where the process starts all over again. I think the fact that Helm received $2.125, Tootoo received $1.9m, and Eaves was signed on at $1.2m a couple years back with an equal or better resume to what Abs has now, we get a fair idea of Abdelkader's value. He should probably get $1.25, if he gets over $1.5m he's getting overpaid, and if it's over $2m he has compromising pictures of Holland.
Agreed on Tootoo being a better version of Abdelkader and Helm being more important to the team but that doesn't mean we should or will cut him loose. The 4th line is better with both him and Tootoo on the 4th line and with Emmerton playing in Grand Rapids . I don't think there is any chance Abdelkader is gone unless a team specifically asks for him to be included in a trade. They wouldn't have qualified him if they weren't planning on signing him. He'll likely get a deal in the 1.5-1.8 million range which isn't really a bargain but it doesn't really make him overpaid. There are guys getting 4 a season who provide less than he does.


Last edited by FlashyG: 08-12-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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08-12-2012, 11:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
???

playoffs 2012

Trevor Lewis, 3 6 9 +7
Colin Fraser, 1 1 2 -1

Justin Abdelkader, 0 0 0 -5

well, i see 11 pts vs 0. and dont tell me the playoffs are not important.
You can add their playoff pts to their regular season pts and Abdelkader would still be the highest scoring 4th liner on their team.

You didn't say he wasn't performing in the playoffs, you said he was "not playing, but trying to play" which may have made for a catchy phrase to throw out there, but was completely untrue.

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08-13-2012, 12:14 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Abdelkader has forgettable shifts because a) even when he plays tough he has no backup
As an individual his linemates don't entirely matter. Everyone noticed when Emmerton did poorly, or Nyquist did well, or Filppula made a great play that wasn't finished. How often can we say that of Abdelkader?

I had a lot of high hopes for the guy but he doesn't have the impact as an individual that I anticipated when he was drafted.

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b) his line was garbage last year. Emmerton and Homer shouldnt have even been on the team. When he was paired with Helm they had shifts where they ran all over the other teams defense, I expect him to do the same now that he has some back up and another strong forechecker like Tootoo
I didn't see many shifts at all that fit your description.

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08-13-2012, 01:08 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Emmerton hasn't been any good offensively since his days in Kingston. Abdelkader is better offensively, much better defensively, more physical, a better face-off man, he can kill penalties and has a better ratio of penalties drawn vs penalties taken.
Well, we will just have to agree to disagree on the fact that you are wrong on certain parts of what you just said.

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Ice time isn't given, its earned and the reason Emmerton hasn't had much of a chance to play is because he is one of the worst players in the entire NHL.

There is a reason he has the worst corsi ratings in the league.
Ah yes, CORSI. Did you notice that it also says Justin Abdelkader is one of the worst players in the league? Except for the fact that Abdelkader, unlike Emmerton, is better than Jarome Iginla? Iginla happened to be the worst Calgary Flame. Doesn't that mean he should have been scratched instead of playing all of that time and scoring all of those points?

Also, I looked up some CORSI numbers at behindthenet.com and I found some very amusing results. Apparently Jiri Hudler was not on the ice for a single shot against the opposing goaltender (goal, save, blocked or missed shot), and there were no shots against the Detroit net that were stopped by the goaltender or missed the net, but the Wings blocked 67.9 shots per 60 minutes (the next highest being Eaves at 34.8) and the Wings gave up 67.9 goals per 60 minutes. Given those "facts" I'm not surprised everyone here wants to get rid of him! He played 13:24 last year per game, which means around 14-15 goals against per game just when Hudler's on the ice!

As for Emmerton-related CORSI, the numbers said he was the best PP player we have. By a lot.

CORSI is just another stat-junkie attempt to quantify who's better than who simply through numbers. Why not just say "goals are worth three, assists two, plus minus five. Divide by total ice time, multiply by the ice time leader for position (F/D/G), then score the points. Divide the player's total ice time as a percentage, and penalize the player 60% of the difference. Now wouldn't that be an interesting system? It would be just as valid as CORSI.

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Agreed on Tootoo being a better version of Abdelkader and Helm being more important to the team but that doesn't mean we should or will cut him loose. The 4th line is better with both him and Tootoo on the 4th line and with Emmerton playing in Grand Rapids . I don't think there is any chance Abdelkader is gone unless a team specifically asks for him to be included in a trade. They wouldn't have qualified him if they weren't planning on signing him. He'll likely get a deal in the 1.5-1.8 million range which isn't really a bargain but it doesn't really make him overpaid. There are guys getting 4 a season who provide less than he does.
Abdelkader was qualified because if they don't qualify him they lose him. He's valuable as a trade asset; probably more valuable in that way than he is to the team. Other teams could still see him as a potential top-sixer and might give up much more than he realistically is worth.

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08-13-2012, 01:11 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
As an individual his linemates don't entirely matter. Everyone noticed when Emmerton did poorly, or Nyquist did well, or Filppula made a great play that wasn't finished. How often can we say that of Abdelkader?

I had a lot of high hopes for the guy but he doesn't have the impact as an individual that I anticipated when he was drafted.



I didn't see many shifts at all that fit your description.
He's probably referring to shifts where Helm was doing most of the work and Abdelkader happened to be present when they occurred. If anything on the third line, it was Helm and Miller running all over the opposing defenses.

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08-13-2012, 01:41 AM
  #110
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Corsi. LMAO. Man oh man, every kid who doesn't know how to judge actual hockey visually turns into Will Hunting when they need a more complex sounding way to say "this guy I don't watch is better than this guy I don't watch". The stat is a half assed guide, not anything to take seriously. This is the discrepancy though-forums are for everyone to parade their "knowledge" but you can't be knowledgeable about 30 teams and every player. But you want an interesting statistic? Compare the amount of opinions about any individual player vs the amount of times people reply with "I don't know I don't watch him much". I think that ratio should be pretty amusing. And actual on-ice hockey, X's and O's? Yeah, we barely know that either. Hence why we go nuts for stats and half of this board alone lives and dies by them like they're gospel.

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08-13-2012, 02:34 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Corsi. LMAO. Man oh man, every kid who doesn't know how to judge actual hockey visually turns into Will Hunting when they need a more complex sounding way to say "this guy I don't watch is better than this guy I don't watch". The stat is a half assed guide, not anything to take seriously. This is the discrepancy though-forums are for everyone to parade their "knowledge" but you can't be knowledgeable about 30 teams and every player. But you want an interesting statistic? Compare the amount of opinions about any individual player vs the amount of times people reply with "I don't know I don't watch him much". I think that ratio should be pretty amusing. And actual on-ice hockey, X's and O's? Yeah, we barely know that either. Hence why we go nuts for stats and half of this board alone lives and dies by them like they're gospel.
Certain things matter. Like "did the puck go in?" and other stuff. But trying to come up with some genius-level catch-all to decide who the best player is just makes you look foolish. As does it for anyone following such an idea.

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08-13-2012, 06:28 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
As an individual his linemates don't entirely matter. Everyone noticed when Emmerton did poorly, or Nyquist did well, or Filppula made a great play that wasn't finished. How often can we say that of Abdelkader?

I had a lot of high hopes for the guy but he doesn't have the impact as an individual that I anticipated when he was drafted.



I didn't see many shifts at all that fit your description.
Flashy plays don't make a good player. You might notice Helm's speed three times a game, but it's useless if he is chasing the puck the entire time. Players like Cleary and Abby aren't flashy, but that doesn't mean they aren't good players. Similarly, E is a solid defensemen, but many cannot see that because he is generally unnoticeable.

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08-13-2012, 08:57 AM
  #113
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You can trade 400 KM east if you'd like .

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08-13-2012, 01:17 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
Flashy plays don't make a good player. You might notice Helm's speed three times a game, but it's useless if he is chasing the puck the entire time. Players like Cleary and Abby aren't flashy, but that doesn't mean they aren't good players. Similarly, E is a solid defensemen, but many cannot see that because he is generally unnoticeable.
If Helm's speed is noticed because he's chasing the puck and keeping the opposing players hemmed in, which is often the reason he's noticed, then yes that's pretty useful. The only advantage to having the puck if you aren't scoring is the fact that your opponent's aren't scoring; it's a 0-0 game until you give it up or you score. And if you're stuck in your own zone, you're losing that battle and effectively being outplayed.

Another way of saying it: Team A could have the puck for all 60 minutes, but if they were stuck on their side of the ice because of Team B's good forechecking that kept them from advancing then Team B was the better team. And that's what Helm does best.

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08-13-2012, 01:35 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If Helm's speed is noticed because he's chasing the puck and keeping the opposing players hemmed in, which is often the reason he's noticed, then yes that's pretty useful. The only advantage to having the puck if you aren't scoring is the fact that your opponent's aren't scoring; it's a 0-0 game until you give it up or you score. And if you're stuck in your own zone, you're losing that battle and effectively being outplayed.

Another way of saying it: Team A could have the puck for all 60 minutes, but if they were stuck on their side of the ice because of Team B's good forechecking that kept them from advancing then Team B was the better team. And that's what Helm does best.
Helm is the Wings best bottom six player IMO. I'm not bashing Helm, but I'm using him as an example of flashy play. Helm is noticeable for a good reason, he plays with heart. However, he hasn't managed many more points despite having better linemates. His career points aren't much higher (comparable years in the NHL), and their +/- are similar. Helm is faster and Abby is more physical. Despite the similar stats (Abby has a higher FO% the last two years), Abby is somehow an AHL player while Helm is 3rd liner. Helm is better, but if Abby is an AHL player, Helm is a is a 10th-13th forward in the NHL.

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08-13-2012, 01:58 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The only things Abdelkader does better than Emmerton are take faceoffs and hit. Emmerton is a better offensive player, he simply wasn't given the opportunity Abdelkader was last year. Abdelkader is able to play much more offensively on the wing and created far more offense from the wing than he did at center. The same is true of Emmerton, but Emmerton spent a much larger portion of his season in the middle while playing fewer minutes with weaker linemates.
Taking faceoffs is a pretty important part of being a center, though. And being physical is a fairly standard trait for a guy on the fourth line and killing penalties. Abdelkader is the better player right now. He's better on the wing and he's better in the middle. And Emmerton was given an opportunity last year. He played in 71 games and he never stepped up.

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08-13-2012, 02:15 PM
  #117
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Emmerton's horrible. He's a 4th line center on a terrible team. Not the Wings.

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08-13-2012, 02:32 PM
  #118
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Ideally, Abdelkader signs for $1.2M and is a 4th-line winger.

However, I can handle him getting $1.5M and being the 4th-line center.

I expect, and fear, though, that he winds up getting $1.8M and top-9 overall minutes.

I don't know exactly why he isn't signed yet, but I'm certain he will be soon enough.

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08-13-2012, 02:39 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Ideally, Abdelkader signs for $1.2M and is a 4th-line winger.

However, I can handle him getting $1.5M and being the 4th-line center.

I expect, and fear, though, that he winds up getting $1.8M and top-9 overall minutes.

I don't know exactly why he isn't signed yet, but I'm certain he will be soon enough.
Why do you fear that?

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08-13-2012, 02:40 PM
  #120
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Emmerton's horrible. He's a 4th line center on a terrible team. Not the Wings.
He might even be a 3rd or 4th line center on the Griffins.

I would be surprised if he got claimed at all if we waived him to move him down.

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08-13-2012, 02:59 PM
  #121
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Why do you fear that?
Because I think Abdelkader is best as a 4th-line forward. Anymore than that and he's being relied upon too heavily. And based on that, I don't think he's worth $1.8M.

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08-13-2012, 03:13 PM
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Because I think Abdelkader is best as a 4th-line forward. Anymore than that and he's being relied upon too heavily. And based on that, I don't think he's worth $1.8M.
I think he would be fine at wing on the third line with Helm at center. But, I also prefer him on the 4th line.

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08-13-2012, 03:34 PM
  #123
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He might even be a 3rd or 4th line center on the Griffins.

I would be surprised if he got claimed at all if we waived him to move him down.
Former second round pick, kid was ranked 10th in his class coming into the draft and he is a Red Wings castoff. I would be stunned if he wasn't picked up, there are probably a lot more people that believe Emmerton has upside around the league than we care to consider. Ritola and Quincey had less appeal when getting waived in my opinion.

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08-13-2012, 03:39 PM
  #124
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Taking faceoffs is a pretty important part of being a center, though. And being physical is a fairly standard trait for a guy on the fourth line and killing penalties. Abdelkader is the better player right now. He's better on the wing and he's better in the middle. And Emmerton was given an opportunity last year. He played in 71 games and he never stepped up.
I'm not discounting Abdelkader as the better player. But Emmerton is better OFFENSIVELY. It's the Hudler/Filppula comparison. Flip scored more points last year, but part of it was due to more ice time, and a large portion was due to Hudler's "nerfing" on the PP.

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Emmerton's horrible. He's a 4th line center on a terrible team. Not the Wings.
Wrong. Actually unless he improves his faceoffs (or at least has better luck) going forward, he should be converted to wing. But he's better than the average fourth-liner and a lot of teams might use him on the third line because he's a two-way player with good puck skills and a pretty strong playmaker. If he becomes a 50+% faceoff guy, he (like Abdelkader) is instantly one of the best 4Cs in the league if ranked against the others.

That said, Emmerton's time with the Wings is very quickly running out. Same for Mursak. Both need to earn a permanent spot before Sheahan and Andersson are brought in. Nyquist, Jarnkrok, etc. aren't as much of a threat to him as they are to each other (and guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, or even Franzen) because Emmerton and Mursak are not competing for a top-six role unless they suddenly hits their expected peak - which would be a nice surprise. Probable mid-level third-liners is what we should be expecting.

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08-13-2012, 03:48 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I'm not discounting Abdelkader as the better player. But Emmerton is better OFFENSIVELY. It's the Hudler/Filppula comparison. Flip scored more points last year, but part of it was due to more ice time, and a large portion was due to Hudler's "nerfing" on the PP.



Wrong. Actually unless he improves his faceoffs (or at least has better luck) going forward, he should be converted to wing. But he's better than the average fourth-liner and a lot of teams might use him on the third line because he's a two-way player with good puck skills and a pretty strong playmaker. If he becomes a 50+% faceoff guy, he (like Abdelkader) is instantly one of the best 4Cs in the league if ranked against the others.

That said, Emmerton's time with the Wings is very quickly running out. Same for Mursak. Both need to earn a permanent spot before Sheahan and Andersson are brought in. Nyquist, Jarnkrok, etc. aren't as much of a threat to him as they are to each other (and guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, or even Franzen) because Emmerton and Mursak are not competing for a top-six role unless they suddenly hits their expected peak - which would be a nice surprise. Probable mid-level third-liners is what we should be expecting.
Emmerton couldn't even break 40 points on the Griffins. What makes you think he is better offensively than Abdelkader? He isn't good at FOs, he isn't physical, he doesn't have a history of offensive talent at the professional level, and he hasn't proven himself defensively reliable to be a consistent PKer.

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