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Old
08-10-2012, 11:36 PM
  #51
5RingsAndABeer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PasDaSquini View Post
Boston wins the deal. Why, they won the cup that year. Winning a cup tops all imo. As of right now the leafs got the best player ion the trade but I see that easily changing with Sequin emerging as a legit top centre(dont think he will reach elite status though)
I hate this argument. If they had lost any of their 3 game 7s, does that somehow affect the value of the trade? Boston actually made the team less competitive the year they won the cup - Kessel was better than a rookie Seguin.

Boston won the trade handily but not because they won the cup the next season.

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Old
08-11-2012, 10:55 AM
  #52
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People forget Boston traded there first and Wideman for Horton and Soupy. The only reason Boston traded that first was because they had Torontos first round pick.. The trade that just keeps giving.
Boston will be set with young players for years to come and Toronto will have a potential 40 goal scorer for a while so both teams did pretty well...
I would still pick Seguin in a draft over Kessel any day of the week....

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Old
08-11-2012, 05:38 PM
  #53
RandV
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Seguin and Kessel can be argued back and forth all you want, as they're both top line (or at least emerging top line) forwards. The real factor that this trade will eventually be judged by is how well Dougie Hamilton develops. If he doesn't pan out then it's salvageable from Toronto's perspective, but if he develops into a top pairing dman over the next few years then there's no real contest here.

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Old
08-11-2012, 05:43 PM
  #54
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
Ummm, they actually played for the same team at the times that are being measured.....
Ummm yes, that's why I brought up boston...

I referenced 'a more talented team' as Boston won the cup in seguin's rookie year. It felt only fair to suggest they were better than years prior.

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Old
08-11-2012, 05:48 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post


Greg Pateryn
Habs got 1 year of Robert Lang. 20g 19a in 50 games I believe.

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Old
08-11-2012, 06:09 PM
  #56
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How about this mega trade between SJ and Minnesota?

To San Jose:
Dominic Moore
James Sheppard
Brent Burns
Martin Havlat

To Minnesota:
Charlie Coyle
Zach Phillips
Devin Setoguchi
Dany Heatley
3rd Round Pick (2013)

Or this one:

To New Jersey:
Marek Zidlicky

To Minnesota:
Stephane Veilleux
Raphael Bussieres
Kurtis Foster
Nick Palmieri
3rd round in 2013
Cap Space

Those two trades also netted the Wild:

Ryan Suter
Zach Parise

So essentially Minnesota moved:

Leaving:
Brent Burns
James Sheppard
Marek Zidlicky
Martin Havlat
2nd round pick

Entering:
Dany Heatley
Devin Setoguchi
Ryan Suter
Zach Parise
Charlie Coyle
Stephane Veilleux
Zach Phillips
Raphael Bussieres
Nick Palmieri
(2) 3rd round picks

Not bad from two trades.

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Old
08-11-2012, 07:21 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
How about this mega trade between SJ and Minnesota?

To San Jose:
Dominic Moore
James Sheppard
Brent Burns
Martin Havlat

To Minnesota:
Charlie Coyle
Zach Phillips
Devin Setoguchi
Dany Heatley
3rd Round Pick (2013)

Or this one:

To New Jersey:
Marek Zidlicky

To Minnesota:
Stephane Veilleux
Raphael Bussieres
Kurtis Foster
Nick Palmieri
3rd round in 2013
Cap Space

Those two trades also netted the Wild:

Ryan Suter
Zach Parise

So essentially Minnesota moved:

Leaving:
Brent Burns
James Sheppard
Marek Zidlicky
Martin Havlat
2nd round pick

Entering:
Dany Heatley
Devin Setoguchi
Ryan Suter
Zach Parise
Charlie Coyle
Stephane Veilleux
Zach Phillips
Raphael Bussieres
Nick Palmieri
(2) 3rd round picks

Not bad from two trades.
Don't forget the Schultz for Gilbert trade. Gilbert is very good buddies with Ryan Suter, maybe he played a part in him signing with Minessota?

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Old
08-11-2012, 11:29 PM
  #58
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by feds91 View Post
Don't forget the Schultz for Gilbert trade. Gilbert is very good buddies with Ryan Suter, maybe he played a part in him signing with Minessota?
Forgot about Gilbert. Yeah he was pretty big.

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Old
08-12-2012, 07:19 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MintoMadDogsKiller18 View Post
Kessel > Seguin at this point. Anyone who says otherwise is either clueless or a blind homer.
Really even if the are a fan of nether team ?
I like how a Leaf fan said they are close in age 4 1/2 years is not close at their age it is 20%
Lets look at value
Seguin centre has more value then a winger ...check
Seguin players a two way game has more value then someone that does not ....check
Seguin is younger and still growing ....check
Seguin upside is greater ... check
Kessel a better goal score right now ....check
As a fan of the Oilers I would take Seguin if i was starting a team and could pick from the 2 . I say most gms making a trade would give up more to get Seguin . Value is all about market price and Seguin wins . This is not to a say player has more value to a team because of needs .

For TML fans who disagree do a poll on the main board and see Seguin wins in a land slide

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Old
08-12-2012, 10:15 AM
  #60
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Biggs was the player acquired with boston's pick. Hamilton looks very good offensively but very poor defensively. If he ends up being a pronged then Boston wins, if he ends up like Cody franson then leafs win this trade. If he ends up somewhere in the middle I'd say it works for everyone involved.

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Old
08-12-2012, 11:51 AM
  #61
BinCookin
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Let me turn this debate around.

We happen to know the outcome but.

What if Toronto could trade Kessel right now for 2 first round picks from lets say Montreal?

Who wins that trade?

At the time it was 2 firsts and a second.

Just unfortunate where Toronto placed that year

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Old
08-12-2012, 12:00 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Let me turn this debate around.

We happen to know the outcome but.

What if Toronto could trade Kessel right now for 2 first round picks from lets say Montreal?

Who wins that trade?

At the time it was 2 firsts and a second.

Just unfortunate where Toronto placed that year
That is the risk that TO took. I hate this arguement of "Toronto didn't know it would be #2 overall". TOO BAD. YOU TOOK THAT CHANCE. Let's totally change this around for a second. Say those 2 picks were #20 an #24...would Toronto fans accept Boston fans saying "Boston didn't think Kessel could be top 6 in scoring so it was a good trade" NOPE...you wouldn't. In the end, Toronto got MORE out of Kessel that they probably could have hoped for in points this year...win for them. And Boston got a cup and a #1 C for 10+ years plus a potential #1 for 10 years...win for them. Boston gets the edge in the trade due to Hamilton's upside.

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Old
08-12-2012, 12:54 PM
  #63
mark3361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Biggs was the player acquired with boston's pick. Hamilton looks very good offensively but very poor defensively. If he ends up being a pronged then Boston wins, if he ends up like Cody franson then leafs win this trade. If he ends up somewhere in the middle I'd say it works for everyone involved.
Show me a report that says Hamilton looks very poor defensively? Everything I've seen says he's fast tracking to a top pairing D with franchise potential. Only negatives Ive seen are experience and he doesnt use his frame to fullest yet and is still growing.

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Old
08-12-2012, 02:21 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alazais View Post
I fear this will derail quite quickly into the usual insanity that most threads on here end up turning into, especially given the subject matter. Regardless, I am interested in how the trade(s) in total look a few years later and everyones respective opinions on it.


Boston gets:
Kaberle
Seguin
Knight
Hamilton

Toronto Gets:
Kessel
Liles
Colbourne
Percy


I think I've got the totality of this trade right. If I've gotten it wrong let me know and I will happily make any necessary corrections.

Best,
T
Boston never had Liles. So this doesn't make sense. If you're gonna include Liles you should include Horton going to Boston. By possessing the Leafs first rounders the Bruins would be less concerned about dealing away their own first. Also by moving Kessel this gave the Bruins the necessary salary cap room to take on Horton's salary.

Kessel
Colborne
Liles
Percy

for

Seguin
Knight
Hamilton
Horton

Highway robbery for the Bruins.

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Old
08-12-2012, 02:23 PM
  #65
WarriorofTime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Let me turn this debate around.

We happen to know the outcome but.

What if Toronto could trade Kessel right now for 2 first round picks from lets say Montreal?

Who wins that trade?

At the time it was 2 firsts and a second.

Just unfortunate where Toronto placed that year
I guess Burke should have evaluated his team better..

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Old
08-12-2012, 02:38 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
Seguin centre has more value then a winger ...check
Seguin is a winger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
Seguin players a two way game has more value then someone that does not ....check
No he does not. He plays on a two-way team with one of the best two-way players on his line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
Seguin is younger and still growing ....check
Irrelevant to what they are now. Both have room to improve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
Seguin upside is greater ... check
No it is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supert View Post
For TML fans who disagree do a poll on the main board and see Seguin wins in a land slide
A Leaf player losing a poll!? What a surprise!

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Old
08-12-2012, 04:58 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Boston never had Liles. So this doesn't make sense. If you're gonna include Liles you should include Horton going to Boston. By possessing the Leafs first rounders the Bruins would be less concerned about dealing away their own first. Also by moving Kessel this gave the Bruins the necessary salary cap room to take on Horton's salary.

Kessel
Colborne
Liles
Percy

for

Seguin
Knight
Hamilton
Horton

Highway robbery for the Bruins.
Add in Campbell too, they got him in the trade for Horton as well

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Old
08-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #68
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I don't understand how "Boston wins" according to many in this thread.

Toronto currently has the best player in the deal with Kessel, who finished 6th in scoring this past season and is continuing to show improvement.

That said Boston definitely got a blue chip prospect from the deal who could turn out to be an elite talent, but so far hasn't taken that step (though he has shown flashes).

To be honest, I think when all is said and done Kessel and Seguin will be nearly a wash give or take what you prefer (Kessel will never be as good of a player all round as Seguin, but I don't think Seguin will ever be as offensively good as Kessel). The ultimate wild card in this trade will be Dougie Hamilton. If he turns into a top two defender as projected, Leafs lose this deal big time. If he doesn't pan out and is a #4D, his impact is negligable and the trade is essentially a wash.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:17 PM
  #69
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If the end game is the cup...... Boston wins (would they have won without the trades.....debatable)

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:32 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by mark3361 View Post
Show me a report that says Hamilton looks very poor defensively? Everything I've seen says he's fast tracking to a top pairing D with franchise potential. Only negatives Ive seen are experience and he doesnt use his frame to fullest yet and is still growing.
I don't know about the reports but while watching the Canada-Russia Juniors this week, Dougie was out of position several times and cost Canada at least 2 goals in the first 2 games.

I didn't watch all of the games but from what I saw, he might have been trying too hard. I hope it's just a bad series for him because if this is him......I'd have to agree with the reports about weak defensively.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:32 PM
  #71
Tyler Biggs
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I don't know where to start...first off the Kaberle so called hype got them a 1st, Colbourne and a 2nd which got them Liles...not shabby for an over-hyped guy about to become a free agent(who was later resigned by the Hurricanes).

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:33 PM
  #72
leaffansince1961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Boston never had Liles. So this doesn't make sense. If you're gonna include Liles you should include Horton going to Boston. By possessing the Leafs first rounders the Bruins would be less concerned about dealing away their own first. Also by moving Kessel this gave the Bruins the necessary salary cap room to take on Horton's salary.

Kessel
Colborne
Liles
Percy

for

Seguin
Knight
Hamilton
Horton

Highway robbery for the Bruins.
Toronto got Liles with one of the picks Boston gave up for Kaberle.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:38 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by leaffansince1961 View Post
I don't know about the reports but while watching the Canada-Russia Juniors this week, Dougie was out of position several times and cost Canada at least 2 goals in the first 2 games.

I didn't watch all of the games but from what I saw, he might have been trying too hard. I hope it's just a bad series for him because if this is him......I'd have to agree with the reports about weak defensively.
so subjective, really small sample size, got it.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:41 PM
  #74
leaffansince1961
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I don't understand how "Boston wins" according to many in this thread.

Toronto currently has the best player in the deal with Kessel, who finished 6th in scoring this past season and is continuing to show improvement.

That said Boston definitely got a blue chip prospect from the deal who could turn out to be an elite talent, but so far hasn't taken that step (though he has shown flashes).

To be honest, I think when all is said and done Kessel and Seguin will be nearly a wash give or take what you prefer (Kessel will never be as good of a player all round as Seguin, but I don't think Seguin will ever be as offensively good as Kessel). The ultimate wild card in this trade will be Dougie Hamilton. If he turns into a top two defender as projected, Leafs lose this deal big time. If he doesn't pan out and is a #4D, his impact is negligable and the trade is essentially a wash.
As a Leaf fan, I thought that the Leafs gave up a little too much. I was hoping for one 1st and two 2nd round choices. Although, giving up two 1st rounders, I would have tried to add a condition (i.e. protect one pick by having a Leaf option should a lottery pick come up and replace it with a 1st rounder in the third year).

We expected to be giving up mid-round picks which was reasonable. Unfortunately, we had Toskala and it ended up being early round picks. We were unfortunate and it doesn't look very good right now. However, we have to wait until the twilight of all these careers to declare a winner. Anything can happen and anyone can go south at any time.......many young prospects plateau early...even with all the promise from Seguin, he could have hit the ceiling and go downhill. I'm not suggesting he has......just that it can happen.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:45 PM
  #75
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so subjective, really small sample size, got it.
I was trying to be objective but agree on the small sample size. Anyone can have a tough series or get into a rut for awhile. Personally, I was a little disappointed with his play but know enough that you can't judge a player on just a couple of games. They are all so young and still have a great deal of potential. Defensemen tend to mature at a latter age anyway.

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