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Old
08-13-2012, 04:18 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
We have 30 teams now and I think we can get rid of at least 2 (FLA & PHX). That leaves us with 28 teams which we can divide into 4 divisions, making it better structured.
I seriously doubt a retraction will ever happen. They will try to move teams before dissolving them.

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08-13-2012, 04:36 PM
  #52
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I seriously doubt a retraction will ever happen. They will try to move teams before dissolving them.
Seriously. What a waste of time to even be talking about that. Bettman is a proud little troll - he would never admit such a blunder.

Besides, whens the last time a pro team, in any sports, completely dissolved?

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08-13-2012, 04:36 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
We have 30 teams now and I think we can get rid of at least 2 (FLA & PHX). That leaves us with 28 teams which we can divide into 4 divisions, making it better structured.
Agreed.

I thought 24 was ideal, honestly.

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08-13-2012, 04:42 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Without selfish, whiney players like Brad Richards and Henrik Lundqvist, this game doesn't exist, therefore Gary Bettman is still ****ing up some other multi-billion dollar corporation named the NBA. Without the selfish whiney players, would you still be watching this game? I know some would, but not all and the NHL would crash and burn.

Last time around, the players were making a significant amount more in the percentage of NHL revenues. This time, the gap isn't nearly as wide, and with the owners and Bettman talking about how well the game is prospering financially, there should be no reason for radical changes or the players to keep giving back money.

Would you be happy if you were forced to give back 25% of your salary when you were being told that your job was at a near all-time high in terms economic stimulation? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Don't get me wrong, the players are selfish and greedy too. We've seen it from them before, but in this case, the owners being overly greedy and there's no need for this. They could have just extended the existing CBA and everything could have been fine.

Gary Bettman is not the direct contributor of the on-ice product. When he magically finds the fountain of youth and acquires the skills to be an NHL hockey player, than he can make as much as they do.
well i can say the same thing. without the owners, there would be no NHL. without them making investments on players, arenas, etc, there would be no NHL for the players to play in.

im not on a side here. i think the first proposal the owners made was downright horrible. HOWEVER, i do think it was a starting point. on top of it, the players lawyers could have come to the table in January at the all-star game, gotten the financial information they wanted, and heard the owners proposal. instead they stalled and didnt come to the table until July. then they got the proposal, stalled again and now will share a proposal with the owners that is radically different. both sides are to blame

the current cba needed to be tweaked, and their first proposal was modifying the current cba (albeit with figures that were way off.) what the players will propose tomorrow will take us in another direction and set this process backward. there needs to be a cap. there needs to be more revenue sharing. as my friend pat said on facebook, wellington mara and a few other large market owners pitched revenue sharing way back when in the NFL and look at where that league has gone. they saw the future. the same needs to happen here. now obviously the NHL doesnt have the TV contract the NFL has, but the NFL certainly didn't have it back then.

the reason why I'm upset at all these players is theres a certain way you need to go about things. I'm sorry but I'm not going to feel bad for them when they're complaining on social media about Gary Bettman's salary. Bettman's salary compared to other commissioners and other figurehead's of corporations that bring in that kind of revenue is peanuts.

idk a friend of mine told me once its ok to be angry and upset about situations around you and other things, but broadcasting it for everyone to see and airing everything out is just going to turn people off and make them not feel any sympathy for you. just need to outlet it the right way and maybe that's why i feel this way about what richards and all the other players have said. i just think what they're doing is immature, childish and only makes an already bad siutation worse.

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08-13-2012, 04:57 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
We have 30 teams now and I think we can get rid of at least 2 (FLA & PHX). That leaves us with 28 teams which we can divide into 4 divisions, making it better structured.
Let's just dissolve two teams that just won their division and Phoenix just made the WCF. That would look really good.

The NHL is not going to retract especially in those spots. Phoenix will move before being gotten rid of. Same goes for Florida. It's going to be 30 teams moving forward, and if anything, the NHL is going to expand AGAIN to 32 teams before retracting.

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08-13-2012, 05:04 PM
  #56
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well i can say the same thing. without the owners, there would be no NHL. without them making investments on players, arenas, etc, there would be no NHL for the players to play in.
Not really. Players would play elsewhere. NHL doesn't operate without the players when it comes down to it. No one is going to watch a bunch of average joes like us on the ice.

Quote:
im not on a side here. i think the first proposal the owners made was downright horrible. HOWEVER, i do think it was a starting point. on top of it, the players lawyers could have come to the table in January at the all-star game, gotten the financial information they wanted, and heard the owners proposal. instead they stalled and didnt come to the table until July. then they got the proposal, stalled again and now will share a proposal with the owners that is radically different. both sides are to blame
I agree with the fact that they could have been looking at this a lot earlier.

Quote:
the current cba needed to be tweaked, and their first proposal was modifying the current cba (albeit with figures that were way off.) what the players will propose tomorrow will take us in another direction and set this process backward. there needs to be a cap. there needs to be more revenue sharing. as my friend pat said on facebook, wellington mara and a few other large market owners pitched revenue sharing way back when in the NFL and look at where that league has gone. they saw the future. the same needs to happen here. now obviously the NHL doesnt have the TV contract the NFL has, but the NFL certainly didn't have it back then.
No, revenue sharing is not needed. Getting rid of teams who can't sustain themselves is, however.

Quote:
the reason why I'm upset at all these players is theres a certain way you need to go about things. I'm sorry but I'm not going to feel bad for them when they're complaining on social media about Gary Bettman's salary. Bettman's salary compared to other commissioners and other figurehead's of corporations that bring in that kind of revenue is peanuts.
And those guys are overpaid as well.

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idk a friend of mine told me once its ok to be angry and upset about situations around you and other things, but broadcasting it for everyone to see and airing everything out is just going to turn people off and make them not feel any sympathy for you. just need to outlet it the right way and maybe that's why i feel this way about what richards and all the other players have said. i just think what they're doing is immature, childish and only makes an already bad siutation worse.
No, what's really childish is screwing up for years, not taking accountability for it and expecting other people to pay reparations for your mistakes.

Bettman is a joke. He should have been given the axe years ago.

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Old
08-13-2012, 05:12 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Not really. Players would play elsewhere. NHL doesn't operate without the players when it comes down to it. No one is going to watch a bunch of average joes like us on the ice.



I agree with the fact that they could have been looking at this a lot earlier.



No, revenue sharing is not needed. Getting rid of teams who can't sustain themselves is, however.



And those guys are overpaid as well.



No, what's really childish is screwing up for years, not taking accountability for it and expecting other people to pay reparations for your mistakes.

Bettman is a joke. He should have been given the axe years ago.

revenue sharing is needed. its better for the league as a whole. are you blind enough to really think the players would go for contraction and losing 50 NHL jobs? no they wouldn't, so the next best solution to help those teams out and keep the jobs is revenue sharing. it can and would work. i guarantee if there was a better revenue sharing program in place, the players would take a percentage revenue cut.

bettman is a joke? im sorry but he does his job well. he's getting what the owners want. if anyones a joke, its the people who employ him, the owners. he's just doing his job. im so sick of people blaming bettman for everything. he's not the entire problem!!!!! its the owners who pay him to get what they want that is!!!!! get that thru your thick skulls everyone!

and as far as the players/owners making the NHL thing, they're wouldnt be a league without both parties doing what they do. they're wouldn't be as successful of a league if it wasnt for the rich owners and their investments and they're wouldnt be a league without the talented players. lets be real

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08-13-2012, 05:36 PM
  #58
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The PA offered a luxury tax system in 2005

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Both sides do an amazing about-face with time dwindling down to save the season. For the first time, the league takes linkage off the table and offers a $40 million US salary cap with no link to revenue. The league's offer also includes a 50-per-cent luxury tax on those teams with payrolls from $34-40 million.

For their part, the NHLPA counters with a proposal that includes a $52 million team-by-team salary cap. The union's offer also contained provisions that allow teams to exceed this cap by as much as 10 per cent three times in a six-year period, with a luxury tax incorporated. The NHLPA's luxury tax rates were 25 per cent on $40-44 million; 50 per cent on $44-48 million; 75 per cent on $48-52 million and 150 per cent on $52-$57.2 million.

The NHL rejected the union's offer.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/cba...thelatest.html

Bettman lost a season for the hard cap. He isn't giving up that up for a luxury tax system.

The NHL made their offer. The NHLPA will make their offer. The next CBA will look similar to the current CBA.

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08-13-2012, 05:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The PA offered a luxury tax system in 2005



http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/cba...thelatest.html

Bettman lost a season for the hard cap. He isn't giving up that up for a luxury tax system.
I agree, Fehr is dreaming as much as Bettman is(25 percent player reduction)to try to get a luxury tax implemented.

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08-13-2012, 05:45 PM
  #60
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Sucks we gotta talk about this crap.

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08-13-2012, 05:58 PM
  #61
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The NBA made the luxury tax so punitive that James Dolan doesn't want to pay it. Dolan has shunned paying taxes the last few years.

Quote:
The Knicks, on the other hand, have nothing to show for spending a league-most $195.29 million in luxury taxes since 2003.

New York has avoided the luxury tax the past two years, but paid out a record $45.14 million in 2006-07 for a 33-49 season.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...-significantly

They passed on matching Lin because of the new luxury taxes kicking in beginning in 13-14.

Quote:
Beginning with the 2013-2014 NBA Season, though, the NBA will implement a much harsher luxury tax system. Under that system, a team that exceeds the luxury tax threshold by $25 million would have to pay a tax bill of about $64 million.

A team $20 million over the threshold would owe $45 million, while a team $10 million over the threshold would owe $16.25 million.
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2012/07...-the-2011-cba/

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08-13-2012, 06:14 PM
  #62
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Fehr thinks George Steinbrenner owns a hockey team?

Even the Steinbrenner kids are planning to slash the payroll to $189M by 2014 to avoid paying luxury taxes which increase to 50%. They also get a rebate on revenue sharing for being under $189M. New MLB CBA. Fehr's replacement Michael Weiner agreed to that deal. MLB will give the Yankees money back to have a payroll under $189M.

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08-13-2012, 09:09 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
If you want to see the players back in NY a year later, avoid the KHL.
Come on. It's been one plane crash. Howe many has it been in NA? Only because it happen to be hockeyplayers in a crash,doesn't mean thise things happen all the time.
Swedish and those two Norwgian players, have only good things to say aboyt The KHL, and Thoresen has lived in the nowhere for two years.

I would not believe everything NA press wright about Russia, and criss cross what Russian press write about NA

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08-13-2012, 09:10 PM
  #64
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So the owners want the big market clubs to fork over the revenue they earn on their own merit.

Sounds an awful lot like the NHL pre-lockout. And a lot like MLB.

If they are going backward, maybe they can do a few other things as well:
-No more trapezoid
-Larger goal crease
-Two line passes
-No more instegator penalty
-No more phantom hooking penalties
-No more curved hockey jerseys
-No more shootouts
-Bring back ties
-Stop trying to manufacture goals and fans...let them happen naturally


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08-13-2012, 09:12 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by fredrikstad View Post
Come on. It's been one plane crash. Howe many has it been in NA? Only because it happen to be hockeyplayers in a crash,doesn't mean thise things happen all the time.
Swedish and those two Norwgian players, have only good things to say aboyt The KHL, and Thoresen has lived in the nowhere for two years.

I would not believe everything NA press wright about Russia, and criss cross what Russian press write about NA
I'm more worried about their medical supplies in Russia.

Not only do they not have defibrillators at the benches, they don't even have them in some ambulances.

I'd rather our guys avoid the KHL.

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08-13-2012, 09:20 PM
  #66
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I personally am of the opinion that the elevated quality of AHL play in 04-05 (not to mention the lack of the 20 y/o CHL rule) is one of the reasons why the 2003 draft produced so well. Obviously it varies case by case.
It's certainly possible.

Unfortunately in the capped league, it forced teams to eccelerate player development.

If the NHL gets its way, there wont be a cap, only luxury tax (?) and will allow teams to keep their homegrown talent, and add to salary, buying some players more time to develop.

This lock out will both help and hurt the Rangers. Their leadership group is in their late twenties to early thirties. Losing a season or even half a season is never a good thing. But will also alot guys like Kreider, Hagelin, Miller, Thomas, Yogan, even McIlrath a chance to play NHL caliber competition while no NHL games are to be played.

Also, Gaborik won't miss anything.

Still...i hate the idea of a half season. I make fun about the half-cup the Devils won...

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08-13-2012, 09:22 PM
  #67
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I think it's a great idea. You can say what you want about the MLB but I see the luxury tax as a success there. You haven't had the same teams winning every year. You might have a team like the yankees and rangers lately who have been at the top of the league the last few years but those teams have not "dominated" necessarily. Not to mention the yankees draw so many more fans into the seats for the home team when they are on the road. You look at the MLB this year, a large part of it has been because of the draft, but teams like the Pirates and Nationals have had phenomenal seasons and they are not high spending clubs. There is parody in the league. Bettman has emphasized that for the smaller market teams in the NHL. It didn't happen overnight for washington and pittsburgh in the MLB but those things take time regardless. Columbus has been bad for so many years. Doesn't seem like the salary cap is helping them much. What they really need are better owners, management, scouts, coaching. They'd benefit more from the luxury tax and revenue sharing.

Going to a luxury tax would help the smaller market teams, it would allow players to get what they're worth, and it would help teams keep their young stars/prospects that they are worried about losing due to the salary cap.
How many teams have paid a luxury tax in baseball? 4 teams. The luxury tax is designed to prevent the Yankees from spending too much. $206M of the $227M has been paid by the Yankees. Boston has paid $19M in luxury taxes. Detroit and the Dodgers have about $1M each.

Baseball has revenue sharing but the NHL isn't interested in expanding revenue sharing. So much for Bettman and the small markets. He can't convince some of his big market teams to share more revenue. Fehr wants them to share more revenue but Bettman doesn't.

Management. Columbus is a poorly managed team. The Nats and Pirates have drafted and developed players. Go look at Columbus. How many bad picks have they paid? How many bad trades? How many bad contracts? They have spent money. They have almost as much money committed for 12-13 as the Rangers do.

The same teams have won every year in the NHL?

Post lockout

Carolina
Anaheim
Detroit
Pittsburgh
Chicago
Boston
LA

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08-13-2012, 09:28 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
It's certainly possible.

Unfortunately in the capped league, it forced teams to eccelerate player development.

If the NHL gets its way, there wont be a cap, only luxury tax (?) and will allow teams to keep their homegrown talent, and add to salary, buying some players more time to develop.

This lock out will both help and hurt the Rangers. Their leadership group is in their late twenties to early thirties. Losing a season or even half a season is never a good thing. But will also alot guys like Kreider, Hagelin, Miller, Thomas, Yogan, even McIlrath a chance to play NHL caliber competition while no NHL games are to be played.

Also, Gaborik won't miss anything.

Still...i hate the idea of a half season. I make fun about the half-cup the Devils won...
Thats not what the NHL wants, that is what the NHLPA wants. Or at least what we assume they want.

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08-13-2012, 09:36 PM
  #69
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The Rangers have a pre-season game scheduled in Kansas City against the Avs on October 6.

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“We’re moving forward, business as usual,” said Paul McGannon, president of NHL21, a group of people trying to land an NHL team in Kansas City. “We’re happy with the presale. It’s gone well so far.”
Interest remains high, and the game has plenty in its favor.

For one, it comes on the heels of last year’s preseason game between the Los Angeles Kings and Pittsburgh Penguins, which sold out two weeks before the event.

On top of that, this year’s game is scheduled on a Saturday instead of midweek.

And the game is one of the Rangers’ last preseason games before their Oct. 11 season opener. The team’s arena is under renovation, so many players who will make the final roster are expected to be at the Kansas City game getting some ice time.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascit....html?page=all

Kreider was at a charity event today. He discussed a possible lockout.

Quote:
Kreider said his summer has been spent mostly training and preparing for his first full pro season, a season that may not begin on time, at least in the NHL. The league's collective bargaining agreement expires Sept. 15; an owners lockout is a real possibility.

"I've been following (negotiations)," Kreider said. "I don't get too involved with it. I'm just trying to keep a positive outlook. What I'm trying to do is take care of what I can take care of.

"The players, we're united. We want what's right for the game, what's right for the fans."
Read more: http://www.ctpost.com/sports/article...#ixzz23U5Msgrm

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08-13-2012, 09:42 PM
  #70
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The NHL has a long history of surviving by its big market clubs.

Leeching off of, more like.

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08-13-2012, 09:44 PM
  #71
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Thats not what the NHL wants, that is what the NHLPA wants. Or at least what we assume they want.
Well, either way, point still stands.

The salary cap is the reason we have seen a surplus of highly talented young players step into the NHL early.

The cap makes it necessary.

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08-13-2012, 09:53 PM
  #72
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Sucks we gotta talk about this crap.
It really does.

Instead we should be talking about training camp starting soon.

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08-13-2012, 10:21 PM
  #73
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Someone is going to need to show me some numbers to convince me that contraction (which most likely will never happen) is better economically for the league than a meaningful revenue-sharing program.

Contraction would likely result in a smaller national audience, therefore reducing the value of national television broadcasting rights. In fact, I would suspect that NBC/NHL have a clause in their contract pertaining to the value of their existing contract in the event the league dissolves a team. Anyone know if the TV contract is available to read anywhere?

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08-13-2012, 10:26 PM
  #74
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Someone is going to need to show me some numbers to convince me that contraction (which most likely will never happen) is better economically for the league than a meaningful revenue-sharing program.

Contraction would likely result in a smaller national audience, therefore reducing the value of national television broadcasting rights. In fact, I would suspect that NBC/NHL have a clause in their contract pertaining to the value of their existing contract in the event the league dissolves a team. Anyone know if the TV contract is available to read anywhere?
i dont think its most likely. it will NEVER happen. the players will not accept losing 46 NHL jobs. the only way contraction will happen is if an expansion team would take its place. (phoenix folds, quebec city receives expansion team)

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08-14-2012, 12:15 AM
  #75
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No Bettman is not to blame for over-expansion. The NHL was over-expanded long before Bettman came along. The other owners are to blame because they get to collect an expansion fee which they gladly pocket, forgetting that in a few years they have to bail the same owners out.
Bettman brought in Phoenix, Carolina, Nashville, Atlanta and Columbus. Five teams in terrible markets that had NO APPEAL to hockey. Columbus was the only one that's caught on with a decent fanbase, yet their management is just as incompetent as the others.

Tampa Bay was the work of a previous commissioner and Bettman took over right around the time that Florida and Anaheim came into the league.

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revenue sharing is needed. its better for the league as a whole. are you blind enough to really think the players would go for contraction and losing 50 NHL jobs? no they wouldn't, so the next best solution to help those teams out and keep the jobs is revenue sharing. it can and would work. i guarantee if there was a better revenue sharing program in place, the players would take a percentage revenue cut.
Revenue Sharing only helps poor teams that are in markets that CAN'T SUSTAIN THEMSELVES.

Stop catering to the weak and get rid of them. It's not Dolan's responsibility to support Phoenix. If the NHL wants to do so, let them do it like they're doing now.

Quote:
bettman is a joke? im sorry but he does his job well. he's getting what the owners want. if anyones a joke, its the people who employ him, the owners. he's just doing his job. im so sick of people blaming bettman for everything. he's not the entire problem!!!!! its the owners who pay him to get what they want that is!!!!! get that thru your thick skulls everyone!
I've been saying Bettman is a joke for years, this is not a new issue.

Quote:
and as far as the players/owners making the NHL thing, they're wouldnt be a league without both parties doing what they do. they're wouldn't be as successful of a league if it wasnt for the rich owners and their investments and they're wouldnt be a league without the talented players. lets be real
All I'm saying is that no one is going to watch a game of a bunch of average joes playing hockey.

Both sides are important, but something tells me the players have a slight edge in importance.

Without the Rangers, MSG loses arguably it's biggest money maker. If no one watches the Rangers, the network suffers. How many people would unsubscribe if MSG lost the Rangers? Dolan would be SCREWED.

It's not bad enough that Fios is starting to branch out all over Long Island and in other areas of NY, it would give unhappy IO customers just another reason to switch to Fios, especially now that Fios has MSG in HD.

The players could go get paid overseas. Sure, it might not be as much as the NHL, but they'd all find a way to get paid.

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