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Roster Thoughts and Offseason Speculation for the 2012-2013 Season II

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Old
08-13-2012, 11:26 PM
  #976
KopitarFAN
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The players make their proposal tomorrow, we'll finally see where they will eventually meet in the middle. Particularly with the revenue split.

I doubt the players proposal will include a limit on contract length, and it surely won't include that no arbitration deal.

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08-14-2012, 12:38 AM
  #977
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ew at #4. Lets trade a roster player who plays on the best defensive unit in the league and put a rookie in in his place just because his value is high.

The goal should be to win the cup, you don't do that by intentionally making the team worse, c'mon son

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08-14-2012, 01:15 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
ew at #4. Lets trade a roster player who plays on the best defensive unit in the league and put a rookie in in his place just because his value is high.

The goal should be to win the cup, you don't do that by intentionally making the team worse, c'mon son
It is astonishing to see when people advocate these silly notions of trading an already young uprising defenseman for an unproven prospect who may not even be as good as Martinez. It's mind numbingly dumb when I read such nonsensical propositions.

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08-14-2012, 02:36 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
It is astonishing to see when people advocate these silly notions of trading an already young uprising defenseman for an unproven prospect who may not even be as good as Martinez. It's mind numbingly dumb when I read such nonsensical propositions.
It's because people have this bloated opinion of Hickey because of where he was drafted. If Thomas Hickey were a 2nd round pick, no one would be making proposals to move a valuable player like AMart to open up a roster spot.

Hickey has been passed over by four players who were drafted or signed after him (Martinez, Doughty, Voynov and Muzzin), there were roster spots for the taking and he was beat out by better players.


Last edited by Herby: 08-14-2012 at 03:46 AM.
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Old
08-14-2012, 03:45 AM
  #980
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http://www.bergerbytes.ca/2012/08/ex...tarting-jan-1/

Quote:
from a hockey executive whose name is familiar to any person with even casual interest in the sport: “Forget about watching the NHL until the new year. There is virtually no chance our league will open for business until Jan. 1. Detroit and Toronto will play the first game of the season, outdoors, in Ann Arbor, Mich. You can pretty much expect that a 60-game schedule will follow with the current playoff structure of four rounds. That’s the best-case scenario right now. I can’t imagine our league starting up at any point in October, November or December.”
I could live with this, and I think the NHL knows, just like the NBA did last year that many people don't start to get into the league until after the college bowls and NFL playoffs end, so this wouldn't be a total disaster.

60 games would be really pushing it though. For example the Kings are scheduled to play 45 games between January 1st and the end of the season.

If you love back to back games, you will like this likely schedule. That schedule would hurt older teams like Dallas, but would also hurt the Kings who rely heavily on their goaltender.

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08-14-2012, 04:14 AM
  #981
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Originally Posted by rajuabju View Post
I'd like to see Dean make some (not all) of the following moves-

1) Holloway for a mid-round pick. There's no doubt he has the talent to make it in the NHL, but I see 0% chance of it happening with the Kings. Perhaps a team like NYI or Florida might be willing to give a pick for Holloway and lure him back here.

2) Same with Moller, but perhaps a later round pick.

3) Move Loktionov (as part of a package perhaps with Bernier). With our top C positions LOCKED down, he has no future here. He's never going to be effective as a bottom 6 C, and the experiment with him on the wing was a failure.

4) Either move Martinez while his value is high and let Hickey take his spot and see what happens, or dump Hickey as part of a trade package for a pick.

Basically my feeling is that right now, we need to bulk up a bit on picks in next years (and 2014) drafts. We have "spare" parts that can be moved, without doing any serious damage to our roster or cap, to achieve that goal. Whereas our prospect pool was among the deepest just a season or two ago, graduations/trades and winning have severely depleted that pool of high end talent, and I believe its time to start looking to do some replenishment
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Disagree with 3 and 4. I don't think those moves are necessary at all.

I don't understand why everyone is in such a rush to move Loktionov/Martinez/Hickey.
I agree with johnjm22. I also don't understand why anyone would trade NHL-ready depth on a Cup-winning team for a pick. Those depth players are so much more important to a contending team than a pick who *might* make the NHL roster in 5 years.

Move Martinez? C'mon.

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:18 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
http://www.bergerbytes.ca/2012/08/ex...tarting-jan-1/



I could live with this, and I think the NHL knows, just like the NBA did last year that many people don't start to get into the league until after the college bowls and NFL playoffs end, so this wouldn't be a total disaster.

60 games would be really pushing it though. For example the Kings are scheduled to play 45 games between January 1st and the end of the season.

If you love back to back games, you will like this likely schedule. That schedule would hurt older teams like Dallas, but would also hurt the Kings who rely heavily on their goaltender.
Injuries have a much bigger impact when the games are condensed like that. Teams like LA, with depth coming out their ass, will have a distinct advantage.

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08-14-2012, 09:15 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Injuries have a much bigger impact when the games are condensed like that. Teams like LA, with depth coming out their ass, will have a distinct advantage.
Yep. The other positive is a lil longer break. Maybe that'll destroy the cup hangover? Who knows. But ugh, lockout.

Herby also makes an interesting point about the goaltending in a condensed schedule, and that seems like a little extra incentive to hang onto Bernier.

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Old
08-14-2012, 10:30 AM
  #984
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Welp, I'm glad we snuck in a championship before this ****ticane hit.

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Old
08-14-2012, 11:03 AM
  #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
http://www.bergerbytes.ca/2012/08/ex...tarting-jan-1/



I could live with this, and I think the NHL knows, just like the NBA did last year that many people don't start to get into the league until after the college bowls and NFL playoffs end, so this wouldn't be a total disaster.

60 games would be really pushing it though. For example the Kings are scheduled to play 45 games between January 1st and the end of the season.

If you love back to back games, you will like this likely schedule. That schedule would hurt older teams like Dallas, but would also hurt the Kings who rely heavily on their goaltender.
That's still just an opinion. And they haven't received an offer from the NHLPA...so...i'll reserve my thoughts.

Still hopeful. A little less than yesterday, but still hopeful.

Just wish this ******** didn't happen EVERY CBA.

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Old
08-14-2012, 12:30 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by piston View Post
Herby,

Thanks for the note. I agree that the recent strength of the Canadian dollar is responsible for at least 50% of the rise in league revenues and subsequent lifting of the cap to where it is,today. The total revenue number is denominated in U.S. dollars. Even if Canadian team revenues don't budge on an absolute basis, they go up relatively if the Canadian dollar rises relative to its U.S. counterpart. I don't believe the U.S. dollar will rise because Canada has far better fiscal and monetary policies than we do, and because the Canadians are not a bunch of idiots and actually exploit their oil and gas resources, but that is for another discussion...

Fehr's strategy has always been to stretch salaries on the top end because he knows that will lift those in the middle and bottom eventually thanks to salary arbitration. Hence, he wants to have a few high revenue team that will spend wildly on the stars. Revenue sharing impinges on those teams' ability to spend at will. Put another way, Nashville is stuck paying Weber far more than they had planned because the Flyers don't have the same fiscal constraints. If the Flyers had to pay a penalty for spending, they would have been more rational in how much they offered Weber. As you correctly surmise, there will now be a host of second tier d-men who will see their pay pulled up by the height of the Weber ceiling.

The question I have is how much power will the players cede Fehr. Fehr could not care less about the long term health of the business. he only wants to extract the maximum that he can in the short term. That was his MO in Baseball. The problem is that Hockey is stil not as well established and lacks a monster TV deal. Do the players really want to go through another lost season? We shall see.
Are you serious? I'm not sure what you have against Fehr but the broad-stroked picture you paint of him makes it sound like a personal attack.

Fehr's stance on revenue sharing is exactly the opposite of what you claim it is.

Here's an article about Fehr's dealings with MLB, including a direct quote about revenue sharing from 2002:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2002...labor-contract

Quote:
...Fehr also committed to increasing revenue sharing, but management officials said the players' initial proposal was to raise the amount of locally shared revenue to 22.5% from 20%, rather than the 50% in the owners' plan. The owners would also impose a 50% luxury tax on the portions of payrolls above $98 million.

"We believe there should be additional revenue sharing," Fehr said. But he pointed out that the owners' proposal would divert money to middle-market clubs instead of to the truly needy, and he said baseball should develop a "split pool" that would give the bottom teams more resources.

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Old
08-14-2012, 01:59 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Thrice View Post
Are you serious? I'm not sure what you have against Fehr but the broad-stroked picture you paint of him makes it sound like a personal attack.

WTF? I saw no attacking with Piston's words....

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08-14-2012, 02:14 PM
  #988
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Why is everyone so shocked at the reality of another lockout? This has been the pattern of the NHL ever since Bettman took office. And with all the cap circumventing, monster term contracts thrown around over the past few years, anyone with a pair of eyes could see another shortened season coming in 12/13.

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Old
08-14-2012, 02:56 PM
  #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrice View Post
Are you serious? I'm not sure what you have against Fehr but the broad-stroked picture you paint of him makes it sound like a personal attack.

Fehr's stance on revenue sharing is exactly the opposite of what you claim it is.

Here's an article about Fehr's dealings with MLB, including a direct quote about revenue sharing from 2002:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2002...labor-contract
I don't follow the money enough to have a well formed opinion on the matter so I am wondering if you could do me a favor and explain the difference between what you and piston are saying and then how piston's opinion seems like a personal attack.

I am not trying to be snarky or anything, just hoping to become more informed by reading the positions of two posters who's opinions I respect.

I think it would better help me understand the entire ball of wax because knowing piston as I do I can't even imagine him being wrong let alone make a personal attack on someone. I am not saying you are wrong in your position regarding the differences between what piston and you are claiming to be accurate, only that I don't understand what your saying after reading everything that I have in this thread on the matter.

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08-14-2012, 03:34 PM
  #990
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Sounds like the players counter wasn't as bad as expected.


Last edited by KopitarFAN: 08-14-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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Old
08-14-2012, 03:50 PM
  #991
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Considering the players had every right to counter with a proposal just as absurd as the owners initial proposal, it's refreshing to see a reasonable counter-proposal this "early" in the real negotiation process.

I feel a lot more optimistic about the season starting on time than I did yesterday. We'll see if Bettman rains on that parade tomorrow.

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08-14-2012, 05:37 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I don't follow the money enough to have a well formed opinion on the matter so I am wondering if you could do me a favor and explain the difference between what you and piston are saying and then how piston's opinion seems like a personal attack.

I am not trying to be snarky or anything, just hoping to become more informed by reading the positions of two posters who's opinions I respect.

I think it would better help me understand the entire ball of wax because knowing piston as I do I can't even imagine him being wrong let alone make a personal attack on someone. I am not saying you are wrong in your position regarding the differences between what piston and you are claiming to be accurate, only that I don't understand what your saying after reading everything that I have in this thread on the matter.
Read his own words re: Fehr -
Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
- Fehr is opposed to revenue sharing as he needs big money teams (think Yankees) to use their financial heft to drive salaries for players ever upward. He opposed the so-called luxury tax in Baseball which forced the big spending teams to share revenues with their weaker brethren if they spent over a certain amount on player salaries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
Herby,
Fehr's strategy has always been to stretch salaries on the top end because he knows that will lift those in the middle and bottom eventually thanks to salary arbitration. Hence, he wants to have a few high revenue team that will spend wildly on the stars. Revenue sharing impinges on those teams' ability to spend at will.

The question I have is how much power will the players cede Fehr. Fehr could not care less about the long term health of the business. he only wants to extract the maximum that he can in the short term. That was his MO in Baseball.
He clearly doesn't like the man to the point that he claims that Fehr doesn't care about the health of the sport of hockey. Meanwhile the reality is that Fehr was and is a proponent of revenue sharing and, in fact, the proposal from the NHLPA that came out today championed increased revenue sharing to improve the health of the entire NHL.

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Old
08-14-2012, 05:49 PM
  #993
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I've yet to see a single decent news article. They're so non-specific that you can't make all that much of a judgement call one way or another.

Only thing I can make out is that the Union is looking to change what is considered to be revenue (god knows that's complicated in sports), move more money from franchise to franchise, and may or may-not have a soft instead of hard cap.

I think the revenue aspects are vastly more radical then are being reported. 57% to 47% are irrelevant numbers if what they're are or are not, change.

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08-14-2012, 09:38 PM
  #994
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Word on the street is that this is an INCREDIBLY reasonable counter proposal by the NHLPA. One that might actually salvage this whole deal.


Really positive news.

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08-14-2012, 09:46 PM
  #995
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http://www.thefourthperiod.com/colum.../dp120814.html

All about the players offer

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Old
08-14-2012, 09:50 PM
  #996
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I really like this proposal. It seems like the NHLPA looked at the books and really couldn't argue that the small market team is hurting...this proposal...man it really helps them out.

An adjustable revenue share based on the numbers of the league? Players wanting to help grow the game?

If I'm an owner I'm pumped about the reaction these guys have had to this. They aren't asking for a lot it seems.

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08-14-2012, 10:23 PM
  #997
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