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Old
08-14-2012, 12:22 AM
  #76
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If you are for the luxury tax then you are for "buying championships" as someone else put it. It's easy to not mind the idea if you're a fan of a large-market team like us, but it would simply destroy any parity that this league currently holds. Rich teams like us would dominate the league. Talking about it doesn't even matter though, because the NHL will never go for it.

I for one am all for the Salary Cap and the draft lottery. I think it's one reason why hockey is so fun to watch.

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08-14-2012, 01:40 AM
  #77
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I wanna win. But do the new cba already

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08-14-2012, 03:01 AM
  #78
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All valid points and I don't have much to contribute but thanks for everyone who explained things I wasn't paying attention to hockey during the last lock out so I'm flipping out waiting to see how it all goes down. We're arguably the best team in the league right now and we're headed into a lock out... Fun times. It'll just come down to narrowing the gap. This counter proposal should have happened earlier. We have 30 days left for NHL and the PA to narrow the gap and I'm just hoping their respective ridiculous demands are vastly strategical and that both sides can get down to work after the tug-o-war is done.

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08-14-2012, 05:15 AM
  #79
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Saw our Old Friends Eklund posted this regarding the New CBA agreement -*http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=46080

There are basically 15 points in his "proposal". Although I often find his rumors and sources quite annoying and speculative at best, he imo makes a few sound, interesting and valid points just here. And a few bloopers. Please discuss the actual points and not the source!

#1. The Two Way Contract Fix

#2 Expand the Playoffs to 20 Teams.*

#3 Require a Second Team in Southern Ontario

#4. Allow Dollars to Be Traded Between teams.

#5. Re-work the NHL Discipline System *

#6. Allow Bonuses For Everyone.*

#7 A Week of Courtship Prior To July 1.

#8 Publish Transcripts of Player Arbitrations.

#9 Treat Euro’s the Same as Canadian Juniors.

#10 Allow AHL players to practice with the NHL team without affecting the salary cap.

#11. If A Team Doesn’t Want to Pay Revenue Sharing They Can’t Take the Entry Fee.

#12. When a UFA is signed the team losing him gets compensated for time spent Developing the player.

#13. A Luxury Tax Paid To Go over the Cap.

#14. Force Teams With Waiting Lists to Raise Ticket Prices.

#15. Franchise Tags.


Last edited by BBKers: 08-14-2012 at 05:53 AM.
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08-14-2012, 05:34 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Saw our Old Friends Eklund posted this regarding the New CBA agreement -*http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=46080

There are basically 15 points in his "proposal". Although I often find his rumors and sources quite annoying and speculative at best, he imo makes a few sound, interesting and valid points just here. And a few bloopers. Please discuss the actual points and not the source!

#1. The Two Way Contract Fix

#2 Expand the Playoffs to 20 Teams.*

#3 Require a Second Team in Southern Ontario

#4. Allow Dollars to Be Traded Between teams.

#5. Re-work the NHL Discipline System *

#6. Allow Bonuses For Everyone.*

#7 A Week of Courtship Prior To July 1.

#8 Publish Transcripts of Player Arbitrations.

#9 Treat Euroís the Same as Canadian Juniors.

#10 Allow AHL players to practice with the NHL team without affecting the salary cap.

#11. If A Team Doesnít Want to Pay Revenue Sharing They Canít Take the Entry Fee.

#12. When a UFA is signed the team losing him gets compensated for time spent Developing the player.

#13. A Luxury Tax Paid To Go over the Cap.

#14. Force Teams With Waiting Lists to Raise Ticket Prices.

#15. Franchise Tags.
#1 has one valid point (the 105k was set at the start of the CBA but was never adjusted to heavily rising salaries) but which team needs 5 veteran (ie waiver eligible) players in the minors for depth? I just don't see the issue there.

#3 I agree. I think there's definitely enough hockey fans to support another team

#5 great idea

#6 also seems plausible

#9 making the age for ELC the same makes sense, anything else (AHL eligibility) wouldn't

#10 another good idea

#12 could work with money paid as compensation, but there should be a definite rule whether the money counts against the cap or not

The rest are bad to horrible. So roughly half-half good to bad proposals.

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08-14-2012, 05:50 AM
  #81
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Saw our Old Friends Eklund posted this regarding the New CBA agreement -*http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=46080

There are basically 15 points in his "proposal". Although I often find his rumors and sources quite annoying and speculative at best, he imo makes a few sound, interesting and valid points just here. And a few bloopers. Please discuss the actual points and not the source!

#1. The Two Way Contract Fix
Interesting way of retaining talent in NA opposed to skipping to Europe
#2 Expand the Playoffs to 20 Teams.*
NO
#3 Require a Second Team in Southern Ontario
Require should instead be "eagerly support and encourage"
#4. Allow Dollars to Be Traded Between teams.
YES
#5. Re-work the NHL Discipline System *
Interesting idea
#6. Allow Bonuses For Everyone.*
Why not if bonus cushion is again allowed evening out cap implications until the next year?
#7 A Week of Courtship Prior To July 1.
YES
#8 Publish Transcripts of Player Arbitrations.
Throw out arbitration as is now altogether. It is a farce.
#9 Treat Euroís the Same as Canadian Juniors.
NO
#10 Allow AHL players to practice with the NHL team without affecting the salary cap.
YES
#11. If A Team Doesnít Want to Pay Revenue Sharing They Canít Take the Entry Fee.
Urrrm not sure it would work
#12. When a UFA is signed the team losing him gets compensated for time spent Developing the player.
interesting thought but is it realistic?
#13. A Luxury Tax Paid To Go over the Cap.
Well this will be a big number between the30 owners now - will it not?
#14. Force Teams With Waiting Lists to Raise Ticket Prices.
Force might be a bit stern, but supply/demand should somehow work itself out - no?
#15. Franchise Tags.
YES! But how in realty? Good drafting should be premiered

In addition, the players will have to give in to a compromise of salary % (50-52%, evening out in 2-3 years, thereafter a 5% annual cushion, cap max at 68 m this year) and accept something close to some of the proposed rules about FA status, ELCs... No salary rollbacks (unless Bettman does the same) in real money, only cap allocated. Solving the weaker teams situations may not be entirely viable here, but they are doomed from the start anyways IMO. This is business and if the plan does not stick or the management s awful, it will always fail.

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Old
08-14-2012, 06:25 AM
  #82
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The money collected in MLB revenue sharing doesn't go to the teams. Fehr changed that system in the 2002 MLB CBA. The previous CBA only saw $7M go to the lower revenue teams.

Quote:
The distribution of funds also evolved, no longer providing for funding to low revenue clubs, thus distinguishing it entirely from revenue sharing. The first $5m would go to refund for any miscalculaations, then 50% would go to player benefits, 25% to the Industry Growth Fund, and 25% to developing baseball in countries without high school programs.
http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?o...nion&Itemid=41

The NHL needs more revenue sharing but there are certain teams which are against it. The NBA teams were against it too. Stern told them that the high revenue teams were responsible for driving up salaries so they needed to share money revenue.

Maybe Fehr is proposing the luxury tax system as an alternative to revenue sharing since certain teams want no part of it. The money collected goes to lower revenue teams. Bettman wants cost certainty. Bettman will push his big market owners to share more revenue. If a team is willing to pay a tax,they are willing to share more revenue. Stern wanted a hard cap last year like Bettman got in 2005. Bettman is not giving that up to go to Stern's luxury tax system. Stern made the taxes so tough that's essentially a hard cap but the Lakers will still pay nearly $200 million in salary and taxes if they can re-sign Dwight Howard to an extension for 13-14. The Lakers are one of the richest franchises in pro sports. Time Warner paid the Lakers $5 billion for the cable TV rights. Its a 25 year deal. $200M per year.

Quote:
Knicks salary + tax in 2006-07 was $162.1 million. Lakers 2013-14 will be about $185 million salary + tax if Howard re-signs (fixed tweet).
http://twitter.com/LarryCoon/status/235157586813517824

Bettman wants no part of that. Stern wanted what Bettman has.

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Old
08-14-2012, 06:29 AM
  #83
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What would the difference between a luxury tax system and a hard salary cap be?

And how would teams be able to buy championships?

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08-14-2012, 06:30 AM
  #84
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The NHLPA will make their offer at 11 this morning. It took them one month to make a proposal after the NHL made their proposal. CBA expires in 32 days. The NHL presented their view of the world. The PA will present their view of the world. Then they can finally stop screwing around. Meetings are scheduled for today,Wednesday and Thursday.

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08-14-2012, 06:32 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHLPA will make their offer at 11 this morning. It took them one month to make a proposal after the NHL made their proposal. CBA expires in 32 days. The NHL presented their view of the world. The PA will present their view of the world. Then they can finally stop screwing around. Meetings are scheduled for today,Wednesday and Thursday.
The real talks begin today...

hopefully some progress can be made.

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08-14-2012, 06:45 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Bettman brought in Phoenix, Carolina, Nashville, Atlanta and Columbus. Five teams in terrible markets that had NO APPEAL to hockey. Columbus was the only one that's caught on with a decent fanbase, yet their management is just as incompetent as the others.

Tampa Bay was the work of a previous commissioner and Bettman took over right around the time that Florida and Anaheim came into the league.



Revenue Sharing only helps poor teams that are in markets that CAN'T SUSTAIN THEMSELVES.

Stop catering to the weak and get rid of them. It's not Dolan's responsibility to support Phoenix. If the NHL wants to do so, let them do it like they're doing now.



I've been saying Bettman is a joke for years, this is not a new issue.


sorry man but you're still failing to see the point. its irrelevant that there are weak teams. the NHLPA will not accept losing jobs. its not a matter of opinion, its a fact. there's 2 ways to fix it. revenue sharing (which is not the be all, end all) or moving those teams to better markets. but contraction will NEVER happen.

as far as bettman goes, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm going to put more of the blame on the owners than gary bettman. its just the way I feel. sorry but i just think the owners who saw the dollar signs for expansion are more of the problem than he is.

and sorry, but Nashville is doing just fine. as is Carolina, as is Florida.

and on top of it, yes maybe he had some sort of a say as to where they were going to move, but phoenix and carolina both moved. they weren't expansion franchises. where were they going to move? canada? their dollar sucked then and it wasn't the right thing to do at the time

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08-14-2012, 09:06 AM
  #87
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You guys understand how contraction works right? You don't just eliminate teams from the league. The league has to buy the teams from their existing owners, then dissolve them.

Forbes recently valued all of the franchises. The bottom six are:

Nashville Predators $163
Florida Panthers $162
St Louis Blues $157
Columbus Blue Jackets $152
New York Islanders $149
Phoenix Coyotes $134

If you eliminated four of those teams, it would cost the league about a half a billion dollars, up front, unless they take out loans with compounding interest. Think this is more economically feasible than sharing revenue or implimenting a luxury tax? And of course the NHLPA would never agree to it in the first place. You can have thought experiments all day wondering what the quality of the on-ice product would be in a 20-26 team league, but it's just not a business option worthy of discussion in a business thread.

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08-14-2012, 09:16 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
What would the difference between a luxury tax system and a hard salary cap be?

And how would teams be able to buy championships?
A luxury tax system is that there is no real salary cap. You have a tax levy. So if you exceed a certain amount money on player salaries, you pay an increasing tax. The more you spend on salaries, after a certain point, the more you pay. The money off the tax is then redistributed among other teams who need financial help.

The problem with the luxury tax system is that it essentially creates a market where the highest spending teams are the only ones that can afford the superstars. The players want a situation where the market dictates their salaries. Well the market is really only going to be about 5 teams.

Granted, in hockey, even if you have a team a superstars it doesn't guarantee championships. But I guarantee that it will create a situation where small markets become farming teams for the big clubs. Salaries will be grossly inflated even for good players. Anyone looking for substantial money is going to handful of markets.

Now for the Rangers, in the short term, the luxury tax would probably help. We wouldn't have to worry about our RFA's. We could overspend to get that last piece for our cup run if necessary. Our team is essentially built already.

But the problem is what happens down the road when we have to rebuild? That is where I think whole situation is a nightmare. The Rangers would probably go back to overspending. The Rangers would yet again become a destination for money grabbers and "country club" stars. There is a REAL good chance that all good things we have done post cap(creating a better front office, great scouting, team identity etc)would be essentially for nothing.

IMO, the hard salary cap saves the Rangers from themselves. It also creates a scenario where a GM has to actually be a GM, not a glorified bank manager.


Last edited by Blueshirt Believer: 08-14-2012 at 10:19 AM.
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Old
08-14-2012, 09:54 AM
  #89
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How many teams have paid a luxury tax in baseball? 4 teams. The luxury tax is designed to prevent the Yankees from spending too much. $206M of the $227M has been paid by the Yankees. Boston has paid $19M in luxury taxes. Detroit and the Dodgers have about $1M each.

Baseball has revenue sharing but the NHL isn't interested in expanding revenue sharing. So much for Bettman and the small markets. He can't convince some of his big market teams to share more revenue. Fehr wants them to share more revenue but Bettman doesn't.

Management. Columbus is a poorly managed team. The Nats and Pirates have drafted and developed players. Go look at Columbus. How many bad picks have they paid? How many bad trades? How many bad contracts? They have spent money. They have almost as much money committed for 12-13 as the Rangers do.

The same teams have won every year in the NHL?

Post lockout

Carolina
Anaheim
Detroit
Pittsburgh
Chicago
Boston
LA
Couldn't you set the luxury tax at a lower spending limit than the mlb? That's still a substantial amount those teams are paying. Boston paid a higher luxury tax in years past. They cut back on their spending, probably, because of the luxury tax. Yankees have cut back too.

Bettman is the problem if he doesn't want to approach the bigger market teams for increased revenue sharing, though a team like CBJ doesn't deserve it.

And CBJ's poor management was kind of my point. Bettman wanted parody in the league. Yet the salary cap hasn't helped a team like CBJ at all because they are unstable in management and player development. And I know that's not the only reason the cap was put in place. I know it was put in place more for the benefit of the owners.

Lastly, RB, yes different teams have been winning the cup but of those teams how many are truly small market teams? Carolina for sure. Anaheim? The others are bigger market teams imo, team financials aside.

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08-14-2012, 09:59 AM
  #90
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Contraction will never happen. I don't know why anyone would waste keystrokes discussing it.

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08-14-2012, 10:01 AM
  #91
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PA waited to present the offer at their offices in Toronto. Bettman would have had security escort the PA out of the building 5 minutes after the presentation ended at the NY NHL offices.

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08-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #92
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Why are both sides wasting so much time? First the meetings are in NY, now Toronto. Who cares where they're talking? Just sit down and negotiate already.

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08-14-2012, 10:13 AM
  #93
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Why are both sides wasting so much time? First the meetings are in NY, now Toronto. Who cares where they're talking? Just sit down and negotiate already.
When the owners give 76,000 pages of questionable financial records it's going to take some time to sift through it.

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08-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #94
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Couldn't you set the luxury tax at a lower spending limit than the mlb? That's still a substantial amount those teams are paying. Boston paid a higher luxury tax in years past. They cut back on their spending, probably, because of the luxury tax. Yankees have cut back too.

Bettman is the problem if he doesn't want to approach the bigger market teams for increased revenue sharing, though a team like CBJ doesn't deserve it.

And CBJ's poor management was kind of my point. Bettman wanted parody in the league. Yet the salary cap hasn't helped a team like CBJ at all because they are unstable in management and player development. And I know that's not the only reason the cap was put in place. I know it was put in place more for the benefit of the owners.

Lastly, RB, yes different teams have been winning the cup but of those teams how many are truly small market teams? Carolina for sure. Anaheim? The others are bigger market teams imo, team financials aside.
Even though Bettman probably wants that, I think you mean parity.

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08-14-2012, 10:16 AM
  #95
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When the owners give 76,000 pages of questionable financial records it's going to take some time to sift through it.
True. But there's a month remaining. And when the players give their thousands of pages, I just hope it doesn't take the owners another month to respond.

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08-14-2012, 10:20 AM
  #96
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Dave Isaac ‏@davegisaac

Should be a fun day RT @reporterchris: As NHL's negotiating committee arrived 1 fan yelled: "Hey Gary, are you going to take a pay cut too?"

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08-14-2012, 10:23 AM
  #97
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The NHL contends the PA already had the information contained in the 76,000 pages. Fehr is just waiting until September 15. In the 2002 MLB CBA,Fehr waited until 12th hour to make a deal. NHL made their proposal on July 13. Today is August 14. CBA expires September 15.

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08-14-2012, 10:28 AM
  #98
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Couldn't you set the luxury tax at a lower spending limit than the mlb? That's still a substantial amount those teams are paying. Boston paid a higher luxury tax in years past. They cut back on their spending, probably, because of the luxury tax. Yankees have cut back too.

Bettman is the problem if he doesn't want to approach the bigger market teams for increased revenue sharing, though a team like CBJ doesn't deserve it.

And CBJ's poor management was kind of my point. Bettman wanted parody in the league. Yet the salary cap hasn't helped a team like CBJ at all because they are unstable in management and player development. And I know that's not the only reason the cap was put in place. I know it was put in place more for the benefit of the owners.

Lastly, RB, yes different teams have been winning the cup but of those teams how many are truly small market teams? Carolina for sure. Anaheim? The others are bigger market teams imo, team financials aside.
There is another issue with the Luxury Tax. What happens when the big clubs don't want to spend over the limit? Well then you just created a scenario where the small market teams are getting essentially no money. It only works if the big market clubs are overspending their salaries.

Remember, baseball teams(Yankees) can afford significant tax penalties, because of the revenue they generate.

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08-14-2012, 10:30 AM
  #99
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The NHL contends the PA already had the information contained in the 76,000 pages. Fehr is just waiting until September 15. In the 2002 MLB CBA,Fehr waited until 12th hour to make a deal. NHL made their proposal on July 13. Today is August 14. CBA expires September 15.
Personally, I think Fehr wants to pressure the NHL in allowing the current CBA to continue for one more year. So he can negotiate during the season. He might be playing "chicken" in that regard.

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08-14-2012, 10:41 AM
  #100
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I can't believe we are actually talking lock-out, as a fan I am getting sick of this.

As fans we should picket outside of the NHL Shop in times square, and lock out people from giving the NHL anymore money. At least just to get across how frustrated us fans are.

Then do the same to the NHLPA when they play their "exhibition games". We are the one who are lost in this get angry people.

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