Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
It's fine to say that any one of the pieces would not equate to JT, but to say that the sum of Sedins, Edler, Kesler and Schneider are not equal to JT is just downright stupid. I'm sorry if this is insulting, but there is no other way for me to express this adequately: The thought that JT is worth more than this package is Stupid. The thought that the Canucks would ever entertain such and idea is Stupid. The thought that the Islanders wouldn't do this trade in a heartbeat is Stupid.
This board has been infested with this stupidity for too long. People can be homers that's fine, but I'm sick of homerism being an excuse to be ignorant of reality. Yes, every fan base loves its star players, but no, they are not untouchable, they are not worth 4 guys as good or close to them, and teams have traded young stars in the past. People come on here day after day and talk in these absolute statements like they are some sore of omniscient presence gracing us with their insight, yet all they are doing is taking away from the chance for any rational discussion.
To the OP: would JT ever being traded to VAN? Highly, highly doubtful. But if it were to happen, Kesler and Edler would likely be a starting point to which more significant pieces were added. One of our two top goalies would likely make sense as well. Salary would also have to come back the other way, so DiPietro seems like a logical piece. More than this I do not claim to know, nor will I ever. As I said, this trade will likely only take form in this realm of fantasy, and for me to claim that I am certain of what were to happen if it were ever a reality would be nothing more than a lie.
Well it is stupid. If the Islanders want to entertain the idea of winning the cup, than keeping a player with the potential to lead them there over players that won't in anyway really help (barring Schneider turning into Hasek+) must be stupid. Keeping a franchise player such as Tavares over a center whose best days are behind him and has injury problems, and two poor defensive players who have to be sheltered and will be worse than Tavares, and a #2/3 defender who might walk in a year, and a goalie that's value is his potential (Brian Elliot must be a franchise goalie !) for JT whose better than any of the listed players now and in the future. 10-15 years of a star, possible superstar with the ability to become cup contenders, vs. 3-6 years of above average players who might make it to the second round.
Well it is stupid. If the Islanders want to entertain the idea of winning the cup, than keeping a player with the potential to lead them there over players that won't in anyway really help (barring Schneider turning into Hasek+) must be stupid. Keeping a franchise player such as Tavares over a center whose best days are behind him and has injury problems, and two poor defensive players who have to be sheltered and will be worse than Tavares, and a #2/3 defender who might walk in a year, and a goalie that's value is his potential (Brian Elliot must be a franchise goalie !) for JT whose better than any of the listed players now and in the future. 10-15 years of a star, possible superstar with the ability to become cup contenders, vs. 3-6 years of above average players who might make it to the second round.
There is so much wrong with this post.
There's not a single player in the league who wouldn't be traded for that package.
There is so much wrong with this post.
There's not a single player in the league who wouldn't be traded for that package.
While value-wise, that may be the case... but trades are not made in a vacuum. Tavares will be wearing an Isles jersey for 6 more years and probably for the rest of his career. Like all the other young franchise players in the league (in terms of importance to their club), he is untouchable and the mere mention of his name in any trade proposal will be followed by a click on the other end of the phone. It's an exercise in futility.
There is so much wrong with this post.
There's not a single player in the league who wouldn't be traded for that package.
There's so much RIGHT with that post.
Tavares is to the Islanders what Crosby is to the Penguins, Stamkos to the Lightning, Chara is to the Bruins or the Sedins are to Vancouver. No franchise would trade their "guy" unless the guy specifically wanted to leave, was hitting FA status without a contract, or the team really thought that a bunch of nice-but-not-elite pieces were better for the team at that time.....unless you're Nashville.
Tavares hasn't been here long but he's spoken about nothing but commitment to the franchise, just as the Isles' braintrust (as oxymoronic as it may be at times) has committed to him.
Another team can offer anything they want, but unless VAN were willing to deliver 2 1st rounders plus a package involving one 2 consistent top 6 forwards, a high end goalie, and a 1st AND 3rd defenseman, Snow laughs at you and hangs up.
I'm not saying it's not a good package, but if you want to get an elite, you have to offer something either elite or capable of filling gaps at likely every position - with NO players within spitting distance of a contract year.
Think Schnieder, Kesler, Kassian AND Hamhuis, and consider throwing in Garrison and a 1st rounder as well. Anyone trying to poach another team's elite talent gives at least one high-end center, winger, defenseman AND goalie, and THEN puts some cherries on top.
Tavares is to the Islanders what Crosby is to the Penguins, Stamkos to the Lightning, Chara is to the Bruins or the Sedins are to Vancouver. No franchise would trade their "guy" unless the guy specifically wanted to leave, was hitting FA status without a contract, or the team really thought that a bunch of nice-but-not-elite pieces were better for the team at that time.....unless you're Nashville.
Tavares hasn't been here long but he's spoken about nothing but commitment to the franchise, just as the Isles' braintrust (as oxymoronic as it may be at times) has committed to him.
Another team can offer anything they want, but unless VAN were willing to deliver 2 1st rounders plus a package involving one 2 consistent top 6 forwards, a high end goalie, and a 1st AND 3rd defenseman, Snow laughs at you and hangs up.
I'm not saying it's not a good package, but if you want to get an elite, you have to offer something either elite or capable of filling gaps at likely every position - with NO players within spitting distance of a contract year.
Think Schnieder, Kesler, Kassian AND Hamhuis, and consider throwing in Garrison and a 1st rounder as well. Anyone trying to poach another team's elite talent gives at least one high-end center, winger, defenseman AND goalie, and THEN puts some cherries on top.
The package he was referring to was the Sedins, Kesler, Edler, and Schneider.
Sedins-10 yrs older then 21 yr old Tavares. Too expensive for Wang's budget.
Kesler- a downgrade from Tavares.
Edler-ufa in 2013. Can the isles convince him to sign a cheap, longterm deal?
Schneider-the most intriguing Canuck trade chip. 3 yrs of Schneider vs. 6 yrs of JT.
Isles would imo prefer 6 yrs of JT.
Read the post I quoted and see what his offer was.
EDIT: I'll also say that you try to put all of thos players in a bad light, but do you really think the difference between Kesler and Tavares isn't made up by even one year of Edler, Schneider, and the two players who have led the Western Conference in points for the past 3 consecutive seasons, and are star players on much cheaper contracts than their equivalents long-term, and whose play will likey continue due to their game relying on hockey IQ rather than physicality?
The difference between Tavares and Kesler isn't that?
Last edited by Vankiller Whale: 08-14-2012 at 12:17 PM.
Read the post I quoted and see what his offer was.
You're talking about Caustic Acrostic 's comment, that the Vancouver trade chips were
a bunch of nice-but-not-elite pieces?
He also pointed out that the Sedins are to the Canucks, what Tavares is to the Islanders, what Crosby is to the Penguins, what Stamkos is to the Lightning and what Chara is to the Bruins .
He makes a good point that franchises don't trade their franchise player unless he's demanding to leave or he's about to become a ufa and won't re-sign.
PW also makes a good point, that trades are not made in a vacuum. What good are the Sedins+ Edler when they don't fit into Wang's tight budget?
Read the post I quoted and see what his offer was.
EDIT: I'll also say that you try to put all of thos players in a bad light, but do you really think the difference between Kesler and Tavares isn't made up by even one year of Edler, Schneider, and the two players who have led the Western Conference in points for the past 3 consecutive seasons, and are star players on much cheaper contracts than their equivalents long-term, and whose play will likey continue due to their game relying on hockey IQ rather than physicality?
The difference between Tavares and Kesler isn't that?
How am I putting the Sedins in a bad light, by pointing out they are 10 yrs older then Tavares? Isn't that a fact?
Edler's a ufa next July and the isles with their budget woes, just lost Parenteau because of his $4m per contract demand. You don't think Edler's contract status would concern Snow?
Isles love having Tavares as the face of the franchise #1 center. No interest in exchanging him for Kesler. And no, having 1 yr old Edler and 3 yrs of Schneider doesn't make the trade somehow more attractive for the isles imo.
How am I putting the Sedins in a bad light, by pointing out they are 10 yrs older then Tavares? Isn't that a fact?
Edler's a ufa next July and the isles with their budget woes, just lost Parenteau because of his $4m per contract demand. You don't think Edler's contract status would concern Snow?
Isles love having Tavares as the face of the franchise #1 center. No interest in exchanging him for Kesler. And no, having 1 yr old Edler and 3 yrs of Schneider doesn't make the trade somehow more attractive for the isles imo.
Imo, the Sedins, Edler, and Schneider does make the downgrade from Tavares to Kesler much, much more attractive.
We can agree to disagree, but there's no way any GM would offer that or refuse that.
Imo, the Sedins, Edler, and Schneider does make the downgrade from Tavares to Kesler much, much more attractive.
We can agree to disagree, but there's no way any GM would offer that or refuse that.
The isles 2011-2012 payroll, was just above $36m in actual salares paid out. They used buyouts and backloaded contracts to reach the floor. Wang's money losing lease runs for 3 more seasons. You are wrong that Snow would accept so much salary back.
Do fans think Snow refused to add salary this season, refused to improve his on ice product because he didn't want to to?
2012-2013
D. Sedin- due $6.1m
H. Sedin- due $6.1m
Kesler- due $5m
Edler- due $5m
Schneider-due $3.5m
The isles 2011-2012 payroll, was just above $36m in actual salares paid out. They used buyouts and backloaded contracs to reach the floor. Wang's money mosing lese runs for 3 more seasons. You are wrong that Snow would accept so much salary back.
Do fans think Snow refused to add salary this season, refused to improve his on ice product because he didn't want to to?
2012-2013
Sedins- due $6.1m each
Kesel- dues $5m
Edler- due $5m
Schneider-due $3.5m
Tavares- $5.5m cap hit. Due $4m in actual salary
Edler's making 3.4 or 3.6(can't remember) mil, btw.
And all those pieces could be flipped in a fire sale and still make it worth it to NYI.
Edler's making 3.4 or 3.6(can't remember) mil, btw.
And all those pieces could be flipped in a fire sale and still make it worth it to NYI.
Isles would still be taking on roughly $21m in extra salary.
And I see no reason that Snow would want to flip the players acquired in a Tavares trade. Snow has a glut of young, unproven talent. More does not = better.
Isles will keep their 21 yr old, franchise player.
Edler's making 3.4 or 3.6(can't remember) mil, btw.
And all those pieces could be flipped in a fire sale and still make it worth it to NYI.
Why would we want a fire sale when we can keep Tavares and begin competing for years to come rather than compete for a year and sell everything off. We already have one of the top 3 best prospect pools in the league. We dont need picks or prospects. We have excellent prospects and depth at every position.
Read the post I quoted and see what his offer was.
EDIT: I'll also say that you try to put all of thos players in a bad light, but do you really think the difference between Kesler and Tavares isn't made up by even one year of Edler, Schneider, and the two players who have led the Western Conference in points for the past 3 consecutive seasons, and are star players on much cheaper contracts than their equivalents long-term, and whose play will likey continue due to their game relying on hockey IQ rather than physicality?
The difference between Tavares and Kesler isn't that?
It isn't simply what it's worth; it's about what Tavares, quickly approaching elite status at age 21, is worth to the Islanders. The on-ice rebuild efforts on Long Island pretty much begin and end with this kid. You don't give up on something that special without a guarantee. A package that would guarantee the Islanders dominance over the next several years would be along the lines of what I suggested. Since Tavares is approaching his peak and the half the players coming back in such a deal would be at their peaks or declining, it would take a few young players as well, to ensure a solid future, plus a few picks to ensure that the Islanders have more control over their future than what the ex-Canucks could offer.
I'm not trying to put any Canucks players in a bad light - remember, you're one season removed from the Cup Finals and the Islanders obviously aren't. Those are great players that would be coming back, but the magnitude of the return for a package like that would need to be comparable with what Detriot could have received for putting a young Steve Yzerman on the block. Tavares may not be a household name because the NHL knows that Philly, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and now Minnesota likely are more marketable than Long Island, but this kid has every bit the chance to be THAT kind of high-end/elite player in the mold of...I dunno, Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis, etc.- maybe even higher - so while the Islanders are still trying to figure out where this kid's ceiling is (and at times, it appears he doesn't have one,) we'll keep our "golden ticket," setting the price for trading it at nothing less than the sort of guaranteed-strong future package that strips a LOT of talent from whatever roster JT would be joining.
No malice there, just getting our money's worth.
Addendum - just read the OP's initial question, and I still gotta say that even as a hypothetical, I'd have to be offered this to even consider budging:
The Islander's defense gets fixed immediately from Hamhuis & Garrison, we get a mean PWF to develop in Kassian, Kesler can hold down the #1C spot until Strome grows into it or other options become available, and the goaltending is answered with Schneider. The 1st & 2nd help the Islanders determine their future.
Last edited by 88th Precinct: 08-14-2012 at 02:02 PM.
It isn't simply what it's worth; it's about what Tavares, quickly approaching elite status at age 21, is worth to the Islanders. The on-ice rebuild efforts on Long Island pretty much begin and end with this kid. You don't give up on something that special without a guarantee. A package that would guarantee the Islanders dominance over the next several years would be along the lines of what I suggested. Since Tavares is approaching his peak and the half the players coming back in such a deal would be at their peaks or declining, it would take a few young players as well, to ensure a solid future, plus a few picks to ensure that the Islanders have more control over their future than what the ex-Canucks could offer.
I'm not trying to put any Canucks players in a bad light - remember, you're one season removed from the Cup Finals and the Islanders obviously aren't. Those are great players that would be coming back, but the magnitude of the return for a package like that would need to be comparable with what Detriot could have received for putting a young Steve Yzerman on the block. Tavares may not be a household name because the NHL knows that Philly, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and now Minnesota likely are more marketable than Long Island, but this kid has every bit the chance to be THAT kind of high-end/elite player in the mold of...I dunno, Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, Ron Francis, etc.- maybe even higher - so while the Islanders are still trying to figure out where this kid's ceiling is (and at times, it appears he doesn't have one,) we'll keep our "golden ticket," setting the price for trading it at nothing less than the sort of guaranteed-strong future package that strips a LOT of talent from whatever roster JT would be joining.
No malice there, just getting our money's worth.
Addendum - just read the OP's initial question, and I still gotta say that even as a hypothetical, I'd have to be offered this to even consider budging:
The Islander's defense gets fixed immediately from Hamhuis & Garrison, we get a mean PWF to develop in Kassian, Kesler can hold down the #1C spot until Strome grows into it or other options become available, and the goaltending is answered with Schneider. The 1st & 2nd help the Islanders determine their future.
Definitely more appealing than the Sedins+Edler, though. However we would end up as a worse team. We can let this thread die now. I think it's been beaten to death.
Definitely more appealing than the Sedins+Edler, though. However we would end up as a worse team. We can let this thread die now. I think it's been beaten to death.
Fun debate all the way through, though. One stat that I think kind of shows what Tavares is worth to this team -
Last year, the Islanders as a team scored 203 goals. 30 were by Tavares himself, while he assisted on 51 more. That's a whopping 39.9% of the offensive production through just ONE player.
I think that's where it ends, really - teams want to fill gaps rather than create vacuums, and payment necessary to close the vacuum being left by trading John Tavares would be too rich for anyone's blood.
