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Max Pacioretty signed for 6 years!! ($27M/$4.5M per)

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:20 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
No one is pulling their hair out. Do yourself a favour and drop the sensationalism crap.

We are just discussing the cap hit, the term, the cap situation of our team and the resulting influence the Pacioretty contract has on our team, both off and on the ice.

Does that bug you so much that you need to go on a crusade and tell everyone to 'put their calculators away' ?

Why do you care if people are discussing a current event going on in respects to their favourite team. Fans do this, it's a very, very, very simple concept.

Although I suppose we always need someone to tell others what they should do or how they should react to news, no forum would be complete without it.

Have a good day Buzz Kilington, you seem like a real fun guy to be around! ( insert lol here)

You're right... I am using sensationalism partly because I think the topic needs it and also because seeing people rejoice over the call hit and not the player who's re-signed for 6 more years annoys me. Why? I don't know, it just does...

Ironic you're cali get ME Buzz Killington though lol

That's exactly how I feel when I read about calling hits... As though nothing else even matters today

Speaking of calling hits... Don't you find it fascinating how our GM can target a player like Doan who's call hit would surely be around 5 to 6m...despite barely having any cap room?

Amazing stuff

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08-14-2012, 04:24 PM
  #252
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It's pretty simple actually. Montreal won't offer Doan more money than we have to spend. It's a pretty safe bet to say that we won't be signing him.

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08-14-2012, 04:37 PM
  #253
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Chill out

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08-14-2012, 04:37 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Maybe because we like discussing the cap? We like to maximize our returns? Some people like that, I know I do.

I never got the chance to comment on his contract, I only saw the news at 9AM and by that time the numbers had already broke. But I was elated, I didn't think it was going to happen right away but I'm very happy with the numbers handed out. There isn't very much risk attached.

One way to look at the cap hit is this. Hypothetically, let's just we have a core group of 6-7 guys on our hockey club. Let's say we hypothetically "overpaid" each of those players by a million dollars when you look at a comparables around the league. That's 6-7M that could be tied up in what would, again, against comparables add up to adding a star roster Forward/Defenseman to that core. Even if you overpaid those players by .5M that would still add up to a significant player who could make a difference.

That's why people care about cap hits. People want to see the best iced product possible. Overpaying potentially restricts your roster into adding less quality players. All the recent cup winners have solid players on their teams with mostly "market value" contract players on them, and in some cases guys with undervalued contracts because they were signed young and the team took that risk.
That's bull****...'overpaying' players just makes a GM's job more difficult. Some GM's are better at getting out of trouble then others.

Take the Flyers for example...how much precious cap space did they have this summer? I know not one single NHL spent as much on player salaries last year as the Flyer, yet like magic, there they were offering Shea Weber a 110M deal

The New York Rangers magically always seem to be able to sign/trade for some of the NHL's biggest contracts...

I NEVER said the salary cap isn't important...it's just not 2005 anymore, it's not AS important, every team can has/can/will continue to overpay for players because the salary cap is so high today. ALL NHL teams are spending roughly the same on player salaries, there was about 15M difference between the highest spending team last year and the lowest spending team...that's almost 1 max contract, it's nothing...

The truth is every team can afford to overpay players AND still re-sign their own or target other players via trade or free agency. There are virtually no restrictions to the salary cap in today's world.

This fan focus on salary cap hits, while it's certainly anyone's prerogative to focus on this (and maybe i've spent too much energy trying to convince people they shouldn't care - I can accept that criticism) is COMPLETELY over-stated IMO.

In present day NHL, the salary cap might as well not exist...it is very easy for teams to continually make mistakes salary-wise and still be able to compete in the NHL....

The salary cap exists not to act like the 'big bad monster' fans think it is...it is there to allow ALL teams the ability to compete financially with each other. The idea that 'overpaying' 5-6 players by 1M somehow screws you in the long run is COMPLETE fallacy (and it's also never actually happened)...it's just not true.

and I equate fans who keep spreading this fallacy to parents scaring their children with stories about the boogeyman


Last edited by 417: 08-14-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old
08-14-2012, 04:45 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
You're right... I am using sensationalism partly because I think the topic needs it and also because seeing people rejoice over the call hit and not the player who's re-signed for 6 more years annoys me. Why? I don't know, it just does...

Ironic you're cali get ME Buzz Killington though lol

That's exactly how I feel when I read about calling hits... As though nothing else even matters today

Speaking of calling hits... Don't you find it fascinating how our GM can target a player like Doan who's call hit would surely be around 5 to 6m...despite barely having any cap room?

Amazing stuff
No topic needs sensationalism. That's reserved for the lowest of the low when it comes to media, we should be above it.

Plenty of people have commented on how great Pacioretty is, it's just that his combination of hit/term/talent is really good, so obviously fans (short for fanatics) will comment on it.

I don't see any logic behind telling people to 'put their calculators away'. As if people don't understand that salary can be moved around. We do. We are just happy that this very talented young man was signed long term on a very reasonable cap hit.

p.s. by 'calling hits' do you actually mean cap hit? Your post was a little hard to decipher. I'm assuming there was some auto-correct going on, probably since you posted from a phone or something along those lines.

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:45 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
I think ya'll need to live your life and let Bergevin do his job.
really?you mean bergevin is actually qualified to be an nhl gm?what about all the experts on hf boards that think they know more than him?what a great signing by mb.lets get pk done ,then we're set.

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08-14-2012, 04:52 PM
  #257
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It's pretty simple actually. Montreal won't offer Doan more money than we have to spend. It's a pretty safe bet to say that we won't be signing him.
I know it's not the thread for this topic but, there are still people hoping for Doan?

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08-14-2012, 04:55 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's bull****...'overpaying' players just makes a GM's job more difficult. Some GM's are better at getting out of trouble then others.

Take the Flyers for example...how much precious cap space did they have this summer? I know not one single NHL spent as much on player salaries last year as the Flyer, yet like magic, there they were offering Shea Weber a 110M deal

The New York Rangers magically always seem to be able to sign/trade for some of the NHL's biggest contracts...

I NEVER said the salary cap isn't important...it's just not 2005 anymore, it's not AS important, every team can has/can/will continue to overpay for players because the salary cap is so high today. ALL NHL teams are spending roughly the same on player salaries, there was about 15M difference between the highest spending team last year and the lowest spending team...that's almost 1 max contract, it's nothing...

The truth is every team can afford to overpay players AND still re-sign their own or target other players via trade or free agency. There are virtually no restrictions to the salary cap in today's world.

This fan focus on salary cap hits, while it's certainly anyone's prerogative to focus on this (and maybe i've spent too much energy trying to convince people they shouldn't care - I can accept that criticism) is COMPLETELY over-stated IMO.

In present day NHL, the salary cap might as well not exist...it is very easy for teams to continually make mistakes salary-wise and still be able to compete in the NHL....

The salary cap exists not to act like the 'big bad monster' fans think it is...it is there to allow ALL teams the ability to compete financially with each other. The idea that 'overpaying' 5-6 players by 1M somehow screws you in the long run is COMPLETE fallacy (and it's also never actually happened)...it's just not true.

and I equate fans who keep spreading this fallacy to parents scaring their children with stories about the boogeyman
I never said it screws you.

It impedes your ability to easily add a significant roster player WITHOUT having to move another.

Philly has had to move roster players in the past. Them moving Carter and Richards would be the equivalent of us moving say Plekanec and Pacioretty, in order to go a slightly different route. Most of Philly's players are on relatively cap friendly contracts, with the obvious exception of Bryzgalov and Pronger but it seems Pronger will be retiring due to injury so they might have dodged that bullet. Hence where most of the room to get Weber comes from.

I wonder exactly how much thought you put into your response before you spewed out "FALLACY!! FALLACY". I just gave you a perfectly good example of what overpaying does. If saving 3.5-5M over the course of 6-7 players was enough to add say a player like Gionta in your Top 9 over a player like Armstrong... IS IT NOT AN UPGRADE WITHOUT HAVING TO REMOVE FROM YOUR CORE?

Your anti-Cap obsession has been well-documented.

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08-14-2012, 04:55 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I know it's not the thread for this topic but, there are still people hoping for Doan?
Not that I think it's super likely to happen, but I do think Doan would take us from a bubble team to a legit threat in the East.

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08-14-2012, 05:10 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post



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No topic needs sensationalism. That's reserved for the lowest of the low when it comes to media, we should be above it.
Fair enough...point well made

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Plenty of people have commented on how great Pacioretty is, it's just that his combination of hit/term/talent is really good, so obviously fans (short for fanatics) will comment on it.
I think the overall sense on the board when they announced Pacioretty had re-signed for 6 years was at first, angst over how much his cap hit was going to be. As though Pacioretty was going to command 10M per year. I was just happy to hear he re-signed for 6 years, I assumed that the numbers would be in the 4.5 to 5.5 range, good on Bergevin for getting him on the lower end of that scale, but 1M here or there doesn't affect the bottom line, contrary to what most would have you believe.

I know there's this fear that GM's will go loco and sign a player to a Scott Gomez type of deal...but in reality, the amount of money Pacioretty was going to sign for was already pretty much pre-determined. He fits into a certain salary range, as do most players, (especially those who are not UFA's).

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I don't see any logic behind telling people to 'put their calculators away'. As if people don't understand that salary can be moved around. We do. We are just happy that this very talented young man was signed long term on a very reasonable cap hit.
Well I don't see the logic in assessing EVERY player move with solely how it relates to the salary cap and comparing it to other players on other teams. As though there is a generic template for every player that is negotiating a deal...truth is different teams place different values on different players. Who are we to say which player is overpaid?

and yes...i was typing on my Android, I was a long time blackberry user who's recently switched it up, I'm still getting used to the touch technology

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08-14-2012, 05:16 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Fair enough...point well made



I think the overall sense on the board when they announced Pacioretty had re-signed for 6 years was at first, angst over how much his cap hit was going to be. As though Pacioretty was going to command 10M per year. I was just happy to hear he re-signed for 6 years, I assumed that the numbers would be in the 4.5 to 5.5 range, good on Bergevin for getting him on the lower end of that scale, but 1M here or there doesn't affect the bottom line, contrary to what most would have you believe.

I know there's this fear that GM's will go loco and sign a player to a Scott Gomez type of deal...but in reality, the amount of money Pacioretty was going to sign for was already pretty much pre-determined. He fits into a certain salary range, as do most players, (especially those who are not UFA's).



Well I don't see the logic in assessing EVERY player move with solely how it relates to the salary cap and comparing it to other players on other teams. As though there is a generic template for every player that is negotiating a deal...truth is different teams place different values on different players. Who are we to say which player is overpaid?


and yes...i was typing on my Android, I was a long time blackberry user who's recently switched it up, I'm still getting used to the touch technology
Well you must be right, since it's your opinion.

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08-14-2012, 05:18 PM
  #262
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brian wilde tweeted a comment from PAtches that once again confirms what was evident to all but the most ardent kool aid drinkers...

previous management team simply did not understand how to build a winner, from alienating players to mismanaging assets, their work led the organization nowhere fast.


MB has a long way to go to establishing himself as a good GM, but in a matter of weeks he's already proved himself a much better decision maker than anything we've seen around here in far far too long.


Good job locking up MaxPac, get Subban done and then we can relax and get ready for the season (assuming the greedy ****** don't shut the season down!)

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08-14-2012, 05:25 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post






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It impedes your ability to easily add a significant roster player WITHOUT having to move another.
So does not having a competitive team, so does several other factors...that's part of being a GM. Some are better than others at dealing with those issues. Do you think it matters if the New York Islanders have tons of cap space left, they're still not attracting prime UFA's there...

Quote:
Philly has had to move roster players in the past. Them moving Carter and Richards would be the equivalent of us moving say Plekanec and Pacioretty, in order to go a slightly different route. Most of Philly's players are on relatively cap friendly contracts, with the obvious exception of Bryzgalov and Pronger but it seems Pronger will be retiring due to injury so they might have dodged that bullet. Hence where most of the room to get Weber comes from.
My point exactly...how many people here said that Jeff Carter was 'overpaid'? Yet the Flyers were able to move them no problem (whether that was the right decision is another topic). EVERY single NHL team has players that some fans would call 'overpaid'...in the end, it's all subjective. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The only place where it matters is on hockey forums where fans like to bicker about who's team has 'overpaid' players and which don't.

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I wonder exactly how much thought you put into your response before you spewed out "FALLACY!! FALLACY". I just gave you a perfectly good example of what overpaying does. If saving 3.5-5M over the course of 6-7 players was enough to add say a player like Gionta in your Top 9 over a player like Armstrong... IS IT NOT AN UPGRADE WITHOUT HAVING TO REMOVE FROM YOUR CORE?
lol...but you're assuming that just because you have available cap space, that it means you can attract the best players. That's quite a leap...again, the Islanders can have 50M in available cap space, they still won't sign any prime UFA's.

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Your anti-Cap obsession has been well-documented
well everyone else pro-cap obsession is even more well-documented. I used to also think cap space was the most precious thing...5 years ago

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08-14-2012, 05:31 PM
  #264
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Well you must be right, since it's your opinion.
I never said I was right...I just have an unpopular opinion, it doesn't make me wrong either.

Either way, i'm not trying to be right...just shedding some light on what I feel is a misunderstood point of view

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08-14-2012, 05:42 PM
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Not that I think it's super likely to happen, but I do think Doan would take us from a bubble team to a legit threat in the East.
Who does he bump? Our top 6 wingers are set and I don't think he would be a huge improvement on any of them.

Cole-Pac
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(again, sorry mods)

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08-14-2012, 05:47 PM
  #266
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well everyone else pro-cap obsession is even more well-documented. I used to also think cap space was the most precious thing...5 years ago
When you're at the point where you say "Everyone is just wrong and I'm right" then you need to ask yourself questions.

Anyway, regardless of whether you are the only person with common sense left or not, you still have no business telling people what they should or shouldn't discuss.

Besides, after saying that a player is inked for 6 years, and whether that's good or bad news... there wouldn't be much else to say and we'd cover all basis fairly quickly. It's not like not discussing the cap would mean incredibly deep and insightful discussions.

Your crusade is both tiresome and silly.

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08-14-2012, 05:49 PM
  #267
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I never said I was right...I just have an unpopular opinion, it doesn't make me wrong either.

Either way, i'm not trying to be right...just shedding some light on what I feel is a misunderstood point of view
Who thought Carter was overpaid? Signed way too long, I could concede... Overpaid on a cap hit basis? That I would call fallacy.

If his contract had a 7M price tag... I think you would have seen him become un-movable due to the "superstar" salary and contract length that would be associated to a "good but not great" player. That contract also seems to have changed how he plays and how much he produces.

Montreal wouldn't have too hard of a time attracting players, not like the Islanders do. It's been proven before. We've signed some pretty good players over the course of the last 3-4 years. We have a solid core in place. Hypothetically let's say next season we make progress, the next season we have a good-to-great year and have a surprise playoff run. We are on the cusp of becoming contenders with a core entering it's prime and solid youth on the cusp of joining as well.. Is it inconceivable that a few solid UFA's might have interest in joining this team on the verge of perhaps winning the cup?

Of course. The odds would be good. Of course our odds of adding such a player will have gone up considerably as well with guys like Gomez now off the books. Saving "a mill here, a mill there" on contracts like Pacioretty also add up, and improve our position in the future in the quest to add talent.

You are 100% right that some guys "overstate" the importance of the cap. Some do. I've seen you type that overpaying by a million here or there isn't that big of a deal... I do believe that at that point, it's becoming an issue. Price got overpaid by maybe .25-.5M according to some. That I can totally live with, plus the guy had a considerable amount of leverage on us. We have no options in net outside of him.

If I was Bergevin I'd be trying my best to continue to lock up players I consider key pieces at value or better deals. It gives him so much more flexibility moving forward, can we not agree on this?

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08-14-2012, 06:13 PM
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When you're at the point where you say "Everyone is just wrong and I'm right" then you need to ask yourself questions.

Anyway, regardless of whether you are the only person with common sense left or not, you still have no business telling people what they should or shouldn't discuss.

Besides, after saying that a player is inked for 6 years, and whether that's good or bad news... there wouldn't be much else to say and we'd cover all basis fairly quickly. It's not like not discussing the cap would mean incredibly deep and insightful discussions.

Your crusade is both tiresome and silly.
I never said I was right and everyone else was wrong...and I certainly didn't tell being what they should or shouldn't discuss, or rather, it wasn't my intention. All i've done is provide an alternative point of view, one that isn't popular, but that doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

My 'crusade' might be tiresome and silly to you...but I can do this all day, just getting warmed up.

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08-14-2012, 06:21 PM
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brian wilde tweeted a comment from PAtches that once again confirms what was evident to all but the most ardent kool aid drinkers...

previous management team simply did not understand how to build a winner, from alienating players to mismanaging assets, their work led the organization nowhere fast.


MB has a long way to go to establishing himself as a good GM, but in a matter of weeks he's already proved himself a much better decision maker than anything we've seen around here in far far too long.


Good job locking up MaxPac, get Subban done and then we can relax and get ready for the season (assuming the greedy ****** don't shut the season down!)
And we still have the goofs who think Gauthier did a good job.

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08-14-2012, 06:23 PM
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Who thought Carter was overpaid? Signed way too long, I could concede... Overpaid on a cap hit basis? That I would call fallacy.
at the trade deadline I remember discussing this very topic on the Habs board and the common theme seemed to be that Carter was overpaid.

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Montreal wouldn't have too hard of a time attracting players, not like the Islanders do. It's been proven before. We've signed some pretty good players over the course of the last 3-4 years. We have a solid core in place. Hypothetically let's say next season we make progress, the next season we have a good-to-great year and have a surprise playoff run. We are on the cusp of becoming contenders with a core entering it's prime and solid youth on the cusp of joining as well.. Is it inconceivable that a few solid UFA's might have interest in joining this team on the verge of perhaps winning the cup?
of course it is conceivable, but do you think the Habs wouldn't have to 'overpay' for these impact UFA's? Almost every impact UFA is going to get overpaid, if that were to happen, I'd have to sift through pages and pages of Habs fans complaining that the Habs 'overpaid' for said UFA's...it's vicious cycle.

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Of course. The odds would be good. Of course our odds of adding such a player will have gone up considerably as well with guys like Gomez now off the books. Saving "a mill here, a mill there" on contracts like Pacioretty also add up, and improve our position in the future in the quest to add talent.
Can't say I disagree there, but your thought isn't well developped...Yes the odds increase that the Habs would be able to add such a player(s) with guys like Gomez off the books, but you're making the leap to assume that just because we have available cap space, that whoever we sign would be a success. You know what happened the last time the Habs had alot of cap flexibility? It's the summer Gainey traded for Gomez and acquired Gionta/Cammy/Moen/Gill/Spacek.

Having cap space doesn't mean you'll use it effectively...

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If I was Bergevin I'd be trying my best to continue to lock up players I consider key pieces at value or better deals. It gives him so much more flexibility moving forward, can we not agree on this?
Yes we can agree on that, but it's just not very realistic...furthermore, the idea of value is so subjective, most would agree (including I) that Pacioretty is a great deal value-wise, while I've read several posters state that it is an incredibly risky deal given Pacioretty is relatively unproven...and really, can you say they're wrong????

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08-14-2012, 06:35 PM
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Stoked to have Max locked up for long term!


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08-14-2012, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I never said I was right and everyone else was wrong...and I certainly didn't tell being what they should or shouldn't discuss, or rather, it wasn't my intention. All i've done is provide an alternative point of view, one that isn't popular, but that doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

My 'crusade' might be tiresome and silly to you...but I can do this all day, just getting warmed up.
I agree with you 100% 417. Too many armchair gm's in the hockey world, not referring to anyone here particularily, but people pay too much attention to the caphit rather than usefulness to the team.

I realize you have to be smart in signing players but the overreaction when a guy gets a little more than people think they should is ridiculous. Take Prust for example, overpaid by league standards but exactly what the doctor ordered for Montreal. Cap Shmap, any GM worth his salt can work around the cap, as has been shown time and time again.

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08-14-2012, 06:42 PM
  #273
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I agree with you 100% 417. Too many armchair gm's in the hockey world, not referring to anyone here particularily, but people pay too much attention to the caphit rather than usefulness to the team.

I realize you have to be smart in signing players but the overreaction when a guy gets a little more than people think they should is ridiculous. Take Prust for example, overpaid by league standards but exactly what the doctor ordered for Montreal. Cap Shmap, any GM worth his salt can work around the cap, as has been shown time and time again.
There are countless examples of teams who've thrown money around like it's nothing and they continue to do so...yet I haven't seen a team go into the proverbial 'salary cap hell' that so many people fear. (and before anyone tries, the Blackhawks are not a good example because despite some salary cap crunches post their Stanley Cup, they're are still one of the healthiest franchises today).

Bargains are great for hockey forum piss matches between fans of opposing teams, when it comes to debating who is overpaid or not...but they don't help teams win Stanley Cups.

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08-14-2012, 06:50 PM
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habsfanatics
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
It's great that's what you prefer... Fortunately, this is a public forum that enables people to post their opinions on hockey related matters. There is the ignore option if you choose to use it


Maybe you thought I was being facetious be my reply... But if wasn't... Granted, maybe I should of addressed your question rather repeat what you obviously don't like to read

I will take your advice.

You post nothing that I wish to ever read. Everything is about the cap. You're the one clearly obsessed with matters you consider to be black and white when there is much grey area in between. 90% of your posts are about how others shouldn't be concerned with the cap, well some of us are, get over it.

You made a funny once and posters applauded you and now you've taking it to new heights. Please get over yourself.

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08-14-2012, 06:53 PM
  #275
417
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I will take your advice.

You post nothing that I wish to ever read. Everything is about the cap. You're the one clearly obsessed with matters you consider to be black and white when there is much grey area in between. 90% of your posts are about how others shouldn't be concerned with the cap, well some of us are, get over it.

You made a funny once and posters applauded you and now you've taking it to new heights. Please get over yourself.
I couldn't careless about being applauded by others...I don't post to have other agree with me. Also, i've got over 16K posts on this forum, I doubt if 10% of those are cap related.

was a pleasure chatting my man...too bad you can't handle someone having a different opinion than you.

cheers

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