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Old
08-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #276
Arrch
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Vlasic is a #2.

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08-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
To be fair about the Red wings and Sharks defense this is where i rate them

Very good defenders (#1 or #2 guys):

SJ Det
Boyle Kronwall
Burns

Medium Defenders, (can play 20+ minutes, can be very good at certain aspects of the game... completely acceptable #3 d men or #2 on a bad team.)

SJ Det
Stuart Quincey
Vlasic Smith (Rookie) - He is likely this good

Acceptable NHL defensemen (#4 to #5 D-men)

SJ Det
Braun White (without lidstrom)
Demers Ericsson
Kindl
Let me clean this up for you and correct:

#1/#2 Defenders:
SJDetroit
BoyleKronwall
Burns 
Vlasic 

#3/#4 Defenders:
SJDetroit
StuartWhite
DemersQuincey
MurraySmith

#5/#6 Defenders:
SJDetroit
Braun Ericcson
 Kindl

Depth Defenders: (I don't know Detroits so I will just list SJ
Pelech
Irwin
Tennyson
Petrecki

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08-14-2012, 02:41 PM
  #278
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Braun's better than Demers or Murray, but Demers does have higher upside. I think you're being too generous to Murray.

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08-14-2012, 03:01 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Braun's better than Demers or Murray, but Demers does have higher upside. I think you're being too generous to Murray.
I think Demers best season is better than Braun's thus far, I consider last year an aberration.

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08-14-2012, 03:08 PM
  #280
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Murray doesnt really fill a neeed for the wings. They already have niklas kronwall who does a similar if not better job than murray. Wings need a puck moving d-man to replace lidstrom, someone like dan boyle.

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08-14-2012, 03:15 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by nazembiggs View Post
Murray doesnt really fill a neeed for the wings. They already have niklas kronwall who does a similar if not better job than murray. Wings need a puck moving d-man to replace lidstrom, someone like dan boyle.
Detroit doesn't need a puck moving Dman. They have Kronwall, Quincey, White, Smith, Kindl. The only defensive guy they have is Ericsson. I think Murray does fill a need for a 6th/7th Dman. He's big, he will clear the crease, the only problem is I doubt SJ is interested in what the Wings will have to offer.

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08-14-2012, 03:48 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Let me clean this up for you and correct:

#1/#2 Defenders:
SJDetroit
BoyleKronwall
Burns 
Vlasic 

#3/#4 Defenders:
SJDetroit
StuartWhite
DemersQuincey
MurraySmith

#5/#6 Defenders:
SJDetroit
Braun Ericcson
 Kindl

Depth Defenders: (I don't know Detroits so I will just list SJ
Pelech
Irwin
Tennyson
Petrecki
That sounds OK for the Det guys to me.
I do not know the SJ guys as well so I'll just agree.

Either way that would give detroit a
#2 #3
#3 #4
#5 #6
defenders

With SJ having
#1 #1
#2 #3
#3 #4
making SJ a VERY strong defensive team

Or you might be overrating some of those guys?
As I said, I do not know, but I would agree your defense is stronger at bare minimum

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08-14-2012, 03:59 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
That sounds OK for the Det guys to me.
I do not know the SJ guys as well so I'll just agree.

Either way that would give detroit a
#2 #3
#3 #4
#5 #6
defenders

With SJ having
#1 #1
#2 #3
#3 #4
making SJ a VERY strong defensive team

Or you might be overrating some of those guys?
As I said, I do not know, but I would agree your defense is stronger at bare minimum
He's overrating Murray and Demers IMHO.

Boyle=1, Burns=1/2, Vlasic=2, Stuart=4, Braun=4, Demers=5, Murray=6.
Kronwall=2, Quincey=3, White=4, Smith=4, Ericsson=5, Kindl=6.

SJ is definitely a top-10 defensive team, as they were last season. I just wanna see for my self what kind of upgrade Stuey is on Murray right now.

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:01 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
With SJ having
#1 #1
#2 #3
#3 #4
making SJ a VERY strong defensive team

Or you might be overrating some of those guys?
As I said, I do not know, but I would agree your defense is stronger at bare minimum
It's close, but a bit generous. I'd be comfortable with Demers and Braun as #4s, Stuart is about a #4 now, and Murray is a 5/6.

1 - 2
1 - 4
4 - 4
6

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:02 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Or you might be overrating some of those guys?
As I said, I do not know, but I would agree your defense is stronger at bare minimum
Probably a little bit, I would probably rank our defense like this:

#1 Burns, Boyle
#2 Vlasic
#4 Stuart, Demers (Assuming he rebounds)
#4/5 Braun
#5/6 Murray

However, we were 5th in 5v5 GA last year (8th in overall GA w/ an abysmal penalty kill) with everyone but Braun and Vlasic having down years. I guess Burns wasn't a down year, too.

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08-14-2012, 04:05 PM
  #286
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San Jose:

1-2
2/3-4
5-5
6

Detroit:

2-3/4
4-5
5-6

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:12 PM
  #287
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If you guys want to call Kronwall a #2 than you best start calling turnover machine Burns one as well. I think Vlasic is better than Burns.

Also Ericsson finished the season in the top 4 and was Karlsson partner during the World Championships. He is a better option as a top 4 guy than a lot of people are giving him credit for. He bumped Stuart a guy you are all running around with as a 3-4 in this down the lineup. The Sharks have a better D core. I am not going to argue that but some of these seem best case on the Sharks and worst case for some of the Wings.

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08-14-2012, 04:14 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
He's overrating Murray and Demers IMHO.

Boyle=1, Burns=1/2, Vlasic=2, Stuart=4, Braun=4, Demers=5, Murray=6.
Kronwall=2, Quincey=3, White=4, Smith=4, Ericsson=5, Kindl=6.

SJ is definitely a top-10 defensive team, as they were last season. I just wanna see for my self what kind of upgrade Stuey is on Murray right now.
Assuming Stuart doesn't massively become worse, I think you are really going to like him.
I know we miss him.

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:23 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Assuming Stuart doesn't massively become worse, I think you are really going to like him.
I know we miss him.
What you mean like continuing his trend for the last two seasons. I like Stuart and I hope he turns it around and being close to his family should help. But he has seen a significant drop in his play. The style he plays probably meant it was coming, it is very hard to be that physical and with all the shot blocking. He always skated better than Murray but in a lot of ways the same things are happening to them, just Stuart is able to still skate fast enough to eliminate some of his problems.

Hope he bounces back, I wouldn't count on it, was probably the worst player on the ice in the first round defeat to Nashville.

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08-14-2012, 05:01 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
If you guys want to call Kronwall a #2 than you best start calling turnover machine Burns one as well. I think Vlasic is better than Burns.
Vlasic is better defensively, but Burns is better in most every other category - offense, outlets, skating the puck, physicality.

Burns and Kronwall had surpisingly similar basis stats for '11-'12, although Burns has the edge in points and was a + player last year while Kronwall was slightly to the -. It'll be interesting to see how Burns finishes this year, as he clearly took some time getting used the the new system last year based on his conservatism on the offensive side of things during the 1st half.

If all the stars align, SJ could ice a 1/2, 1/4, 4/4, 4 D-corp if Demers and Murray have bounce-back years and Braun continues to improve, and 1/2, 2/5, 5/5 6 if not and Stuart is in decline (or if the R to L transition goes poorly) - still pretty good. One good thing about this year is Murray will be the only weak outlet passer/puck mover, and if he becomes a victim of depth/decline in terms of his playing time we will have a very mobile back end.

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08-14-2012, 05:14 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Assuming Stuart doesn't massively become worse, I think you are really going to like him.
I know we miss him.
He's not the Stuart he was six years ago or two years ago. His last two seasons have not been very remarkable. As others have mentioned, Ericsson was superior to him in some ways last season.

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08-14-2012, 05:17 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
Vlasic is better defensively, but Burns is better in most every other category - offense, outlets, skating the puck, physicality.

Burns and Kronwall had surpisingly similar basis stats for '11-'12, although Burns has the edge in points and was a + player last year while Kronwall was slightly to the -. It'll be interesting to see how Burns finishes this year, as he clearly took some time getting used the the new system last year based on his conservatism on the offensive side of things during the 1st half.

If all the stars align, SJ could ice a 1/2, 1/4, 4/4, 4 D-corp if Demers and Murray have bounce-back years and Braun continues to improve, and 1/2, 2/5, 5/5 6 if not and Stuart is in decline (or if the R to L transition goes poorly) - still pretty good. One good thing about this year is Murray will be the only weak outlet passer/puck mover, and if he becomes a victim of depth/decline in terms of his playing time we will have a very mobile back end.
I just personally prefer Vlasic as someone who watches from the outside without an attachment to the team. Burns is starting to feel similar to JayBo. His numbers are better but this potential everyone talks about has been going on for too long. He is what he is. For me he isn't a better outlet passer because he turns over the puck too much. He isn't safe with it, he skates and passes it in to trouble far too much.

The first part of his job should be in his own zone. D-man especially number one d-man should create far more chances for their team while limiting the other teams chances. Burns comes out pretty neutral there because of how careless he can be with the puck. It isn't just about the chances you create for your team, it is about the ones you create for the other one as well at that position. This is a lesson the Wings are harping on Brendan Smith about. Vlasic gets this, he is among the very best in the league in my opinion at it. He gives you nothing and he takes what is given. For me at least Vlasic>Burns. Certainly not on physical gifts or style, but from the neck up he is one of the best d-man in the entire NHL.

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08-14-2012, 05:20 PM
  #293
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Smith is hard to rate. He could be anywhere from #2 to #5. Depends on how well his defensive talent is coming along.

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08-14-2012, 05:41 PM
  #294
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This thread just keeps getting better and better. Don't understand how Murray is a "3/4" and Ericsson is a "5/6" though.

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08-14-2012, 05:42 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I just personally prefer Vlasic as someone who watches from the outside without an attachment to the team. Burns is starting to feel similar to JayBo. His numbers are better but this potential everyone talks about has been going on for too long. He is what he is. For me he isn't a better outlet passer because he turns over the puck too much. He isn't safe with it, he skates and passes it in to trouble far too much.

The first part of his job should be in his own zone. D-man especially number one d-man should create far more chances for their team while limiting the other teams chances. Burns comes out pretty neutral there because of how careless he can be with the puck. It isn't just about the chances you create for your team, it is about the ones you create for the other one as well at that position. This is a lesson the Wings are harping on Brendan Smith about. Vlasic gets this, he is among the very best in the league in my opinion at it. He gives you nothing and he takes what is given. For me at least Vlasic>Burns. Certainly not on physical gifts or style, but from the neck up he is one of the best d-man in the entire NHL.
Having watched every Shark's game last year, I was actually surprised when looking at the giveaway stats how bad Burns is (or how good Colin White was) - it doesn;t seem like he is that bad nor does his +- reflect it. Somewhat agreed on the "potential", but for him turning the puck over that much and still be plus player, let's hope he can realize his potential to limit turnovers and further improve his +-.

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08-14-2012, 05:54 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I just personally prefer Vlasic as someone who watches from the outside without an attachment to the team. Burns is starting to feel similar to JayBo. His numbers are better but this potential everyone talks about has been going on for too long. He is what he is. For me he isn't a better outlet passer because he turns over the puck too much. He isn't safe with it, he skates and passes it in to trouble far too much.

The first part of his job should be in his own zone. D-man especially number one d-man should create far more chances for their team while limiting the other teams chances. Burns comes out pretty neutral there because of how careless he can be with the puck. It isn't just about the chances you create for your team, it is about the ones you create for the other one as well at that position. This is a lesson the Wings are harping on Brendan Smith about. Vlasic gets this, he is among the very best in the league in my opinion at it. He gives you nothing and he takes what is given. For me at least Vlasic>Burns. Certainly not on physical gifts or style, but from the neck up he is one of the best d-man in the entire NHL.
Burns is not at all like Bouwmeester, I have no idea where that comparison comes from except that they're both flawless skaters. Burns is a great puck-rusher (as opposed to puck-mover, like Boyle or Lidstrom). He's strong, he protects well, he's got a wicked wrist shot. He also had to drag around an anchor in Douglas Murray for 60 games. Burns and Vlasic together were absolutely perfect at the beginning of the year. They played tough minutes, spent almost all of their time in the o-zone (after rushing out of the d-zone), took not a single penalty between the two of them for the entire span, and created a ton of offense (Vlasic was on pace for a career high). During this time, however, Boyle was struggling with his broken foot/mis-sized stick issues, so the coaches thought they might split up Burns and Vlasic and put Vlasic to babysit Boyle. Murray was absolutely awful all year on account of three freak injuries (the puck to the throat being the most prominent), and yet Burns still put up almost a half a point per game and improved defensively by a mile (as he had to babysit Murray) from start of the season to finish. And then he was easily the Sharks best defenseman in the playoffs (where Boyle and Vlasic were trash).

Burns could stand to have less turnovers (and work on shot accuracy), but otherwise he's a pretty complete player in my mind. He'll never be known for his defensive play, but he's safely average defensively, which is fine when you have a stud like Vlasic covering you.

I'm glad you appreciate Vlasic's safe, cerebral game, but Burns' physical tools and offensive instincts make him the better player. Vlasic is one of the smartest defenders out there, but he's not very good offensively (unless he's put with a Rob Blake or Brent Burns type) and his wounded butterfly of a shot is a big detriment. Burns>Vlasic, although Vlasic is as good defensively as anyone in the league.

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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
This thread just keeps getting better and better. Don't understand how Murray is a "3/4" and Ericsson is a "5/6" though.
Yes, pick out one poster's opinion and act like it's consensus. Brilliant way to keep yourself seeming superior. Short, quick, scathing. I quite like it.

No Sharks fan thinks that Murray is anything more than a 5/6, and personally, I think Ericsson is more of a 4/5 (although I admit that it's funny to see Wings fans still convinced that Ericsson is still going to "put it all together" next season and then the posted I quoted before you doesn't think Burns, who is younger than Ericsson, can.)

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08-14-2012, 06:21 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yes, pick out one poster's opinion and act like it's consensus. Brilliant way to keep yourself seeming superior. Short, quick, scathing. I quite like it.

No Sharks fan thinks that Murray is anything more than a 5/6, and personally, I think Ericsson is more of a 4/5 (although I admit that it's funny to see Wings fans still convinced that Ericsson is still going to "put it all together" next season and then the posted I quoted before you doesn't think Burns, who is younger than Ericsson, can.)
I just didn't want to quote that wonderful chart that was made and replied to it. Boyle, Kronwall, Burns, Vlasic, Quincey, Stuart, Ericsson, White, Demers, Braun, Smith, Murray, Kindl. That's how I would rank them going into next season. The Sharks clearly have the edge but like I have said before both teams need a lot to pan out to remain on top of the West, or in the running.

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08-14-2012, 06:24 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
This thread just keeps getting better and better. Don't understand how Murray is a "3/4" and Ericsson is a "5/6" though.
People forget that Murray played on the top pairing with Boyle and was effective in that role the year before last. The wheels came off last year for that pair starting with Boyle's broken foot and stick issues, the resulting trust/coordination issues and then Murray got injured. *If* Murray returns to form similar to 2 years ago, how is he not top 4 material?

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08-14-2012, 06:44 PM
  #299
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Burns is like JayBo in that everyone continues to talk about what his potential will be and how good he can be. Well when do we accept the fact he is what he is? Burns is never going to be dynamite in his zone, he is going to continue to cough up pucks. I said he scorers more.

The point is you look at their size, speed, and some of the tools and you say my God what this guy could do. Well they aren't doing it, not to the level people talk about them at or project them to be. Neither guy is a number 1, sure on the wrong teams they might be. But true number 1, I don't think so. That doesn't make them bad hockey players, it just means I am tired of projecting them into something that is becoming more and more likely they won't be. I think they are both very good hockey players, certainly Burns is on the better team now. I just don't buy them being what they are billed to be so often. Does that make any sense?


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08-14-2012, 07:18 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Burns is like JayBo in that everyone continues to talk about what his potential will be and how good he can be. Well when do we accept the fact he is what he is? Burns is never going to be dynamite in his zone, he is going to continue to cough up pucks. I said he scorers more.

The point is you look at their size, speed, and some of the tools and you say my God what this guy could do. Well they aren't doing it, not to the level people talk about them at or project them to be. Neither guy is a number 1, sure on the wrong teams they might be. But true number 1, I don't think so. That doesn't make them bad hockey players, it just means I am tired of projecting them into something that is becoming more and more likely they won't be. I think they are both very good hockey players, certainly Burns is on the better team now. I just don't buy them being what they are billed to be so often. Does that make any sense?
The part that I disagree with is Burns not progressing. From the beginning of the year, when I was slightly disappointed by Burns, to the end of the year, when I was elated at his player, he improved so, so much. The reason why I think he still has more is that he showed last season that he could adjust to the system and that he could make changes to his game and show marked, game-to-game improvement. He went from below average to above average defensively in the span of a year. I feel comfortable going into next season with Burns as the #1, should the right Boyle trade come along.

I guess I understand in that you look at the physical tools and think that they could be anything and everything, but neither has the 'it' factor that would make them a consistent shoe-in All-Star. But I think Burns has shown that he can continue to improve, even at 27, and that's something that Jay-Bo, who has been basically the same player for years, has not.

I think Burns and Kronwall are similar types of players right now to be honest. I just think that Burns has more to show and has demonstrated to me that he's willing and capable of improvement right now.

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