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The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: Bobby Hunting [All Bobby Ryan Discussion | Part VI]

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Old
08-15-2012, 01:03 PM
  #801
jbeck5
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Originally Posted by quat View Post
I like Spezza, but this comment is just stupid. Anyone intimating that Getzlaf is "so bad", should just admit they don't know anything about hockey.

Players like Getzlaf still have a huge effect on the game when they're not putting up points, while players like Spezza can have little effect on games even though they are putting up points. If you don't know how that can be, then there is no helping you.

It's the height of ignorance to simply look at stats as the be all and end all of team sports. You won't find two more different players than Getzlaf and Spezza. The only thing that they have in common, is at times they both will play below their respective levels for periods of time.
So 57 points is good for a offensive guy? I think it's bad. If you think 57 points is good, then we'll have to agree to disagree, but don't say it's stupid to say 57 points isn't good for an offensive star.

Also, spezza would never be bad enough to only get 57 points over 82 games.

If you disagree, and think spezza is bad enough to only get 57 points over 82 games, then show me the proof...or else stop quoting me because you're not replying to anything i said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You are only as good as your last season on hfboards.

Regardless, Spezza had an unreal season last year while playing with AHL scrubs.
No, but said player showed how bad he can be. It wasn't a mirage. I didn't hilluscinate those 11 goals.

Spezza's showed at his worst, he is a handful of points under a point a game,at worst.
Getzlaf showed at his worst, he is an 11 goal, 57 point player.

Last year definitely showed that getzlaf's worst is worse then spezza's worst, which should bring getzlaf's value down a notch or two relative to spezza.

I'm not arguing who's better at their best, but spezza is clearly better at their worst...which counts for something. With a player, you take the bad and the good. Spezza's bad is better then getzlafs bad.

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Originally Posted by quat View Post
It's kind of amusing really. I recall feeling badly for Sens fans when Spezza was struggling, as many people tended to write him off as just fortunate to play with Alfy and Heatley ... that he wasn't good enough to dictate the play, was buttery soft and a joke on the defensive end of the game, etc, etc.

He was just a top line guy still trying to find his game, and that was pretty clear to fans of the game. Yet here you are, a Sens fan doing exactly the same kind of lazy analyses on Getzlaf. It would be less sad if it weren't so freaking predictable.
I'm not doing the same thing. Nowhere did i say getzlaf was soft or a joke defensively.

I said he's capable of some pretty low lows...11 goals? come on.

That is entirely different then the arguments ppl were making against spezza.


Last edited by ColePens: 08-15-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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08-15-2012, 01:23 PM
  #802
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Spezza's worst is better then Getzlaf's worst? Wow. Ok here's one for you...

When Getz is at his best he's by far the superior player. And it's not close.


Last edited by ColePens: 08-15-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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08-15-2012, 01:29 PM
  #803
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4800+ posts, and he still hasn't been traded?!?

C'mon people, step up your game. Let those wacky proposals fly freely.

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08-15-2012, 01:40 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Spezza's worst is better then Getzlaf's worst? Wow. Ok here's one for you...

When Getz is at his best he's by far the superior player. And it's not close.
When they're both at their best, it is close. Very close.

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08-15-2012, 01:44 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
My point was that spezza will never be so bad to only get 57 points in a full season regardless of the system.Do you have proof that says otherwise? If no, then stop quoting me, because you're not saying anything to the contrary.
My point is actually that each's players' worst is rather meaningless, when they are too good to be playing at their worst for considerable amounts of time. Getzlaf has had a down season that was statistically worse than every year Spezza's had. I know that. It just doesn't mean as much as you apparently think it does.

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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Still not happy? Ok, lets go with some random season years ago. There, you win.
Yes, looking at, well, all of the last four years (and seeing Getzlaf ahead in three of them) is totally random. Good god.

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08-15-2012, 01:47 PM
  #806
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what in the hell else could there still POSSIBLY be to discuss about bobby ryan? geez

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08-15-2012, 02:00 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by MartyOwns View Post
what in the hell else could there still POSSIBLY be to discuss about bobby ryan? geez
Apparently not alot as the discussion now has become whose better, Getz or Spez

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08-15-2012, 03:53 PM
  #808
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Zibanejad, Greening, Wiercioch, Bishop for Ryan

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08-15-2012, 04:11 PM
  #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
So 57 points is good for a offensive guy? I think it's bad. If you think 57 points is good, then we'll have to agree to disagree, but don't say it's stupid to say 57 points isn't good for an offensive star.

Also, spezza would never be bad enough to only get 57 points over 82 games.

If you disagree, and think spezza is bad enough to only get 57 points over 82 games, then show me the proof...or else stop quoting me because you're not replying to anything i said.




I'm not doing the same thing. Nowhere did i say getzlaf was soft or a joke defensively.

I said he's capable of some pretty low lows...11 goals? come on.

That is entirely different then the arguments ppl were making against spezza.
You're missing the point. I'm not saying you're using exactly the same criticisms, I'm saying you're LACKING the ability to see beyond simple point totals to see the bigger picture.

I am saying that regardless of points, Spezza was equally as stinky as Getzlaf in being an effective player for his team when he was struggling. Given their incredibly different skill sets, I would expect that playing at the top of their games, given a similar level of linemates, Spezza would out point Getzlaf by around 15 points. Yet given a choice of who I would build a team around, I would probably choose Getzlaf.

You are behaving exactly the same way as those who criticized Spezza.

"Bad enough to get 57 points" indeed.

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08-15-2012, 04:50 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
My point was that spezza will never be so bad to only get 57 points in a full season regardless of the system.Do you have proof that says otherwise? If no, then stop quoting me, because you're not saying anything to the contrary.

If you wont go by the more recent times, then lets compare their whole careers.

Spezza has 616 points in 606 games.
Getzlaf has 472 points in 512 games.

You don't wanna go by careers? Ok, lets go by the most recent season.

Spezza has 34 goals and 84 points in 80 games.
Getzlaf has 11 goals and 57 points in 82 games.

Still not happy? Ok, lets go with some random season years ago. There, you win.
Why don't we go by the last 5 years (which includes Getzlafs down year):

Getzlaf 373GP 98G 277A 375P
Spezza 360GP 144G 219A 363P

Points wise, they're virtually identical. Spezza has more goals but Getzlaf is the superior setup man. When you factor in other qualities, IMO Getzlaf has him beat.

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08-15-2012, 05:22 PM
  #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Why don't we go by the last 5 years (which includes Getzlafs down year):

Getzlaf 373GP 98G 277A 375P
Spezza 360GP 144G 219A 363P

Points wise, they're virtually identical. Spezza has more goals but Getzlaf is the superior setup man. When you factor in other qualities, IMO Getzlaf has him beat.
What factor might those be? I would love to see Spezza with Ryan and especially Perry flanking him.

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08-15-2012, 05:26 PM
  #812
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O'Reilly for Ryan, I know most Avs fans would disagree with me but I'd do that trade.

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08-15-2012, 05:32 PM
  #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Why don't we go by the last 5 years (which includes Getzlafs down year):

Getzlaf 373GP 98G 277A 375P
Spezza 360GP 144G 219A 363P

Points wise, they're virtually identical. Spezza has more goals but Getzlaf is the superior setup man. When you factor in other qualities, IMO Getzlaf has him beat.
AND Spezza had much worse line support than Getzlaf in past 5 years. Greening, Butler... Lol.

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08-15-2012, 05:33 PM
  #814
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Getzlaf at his best is in another league than Spezza at his best.

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08-15-2012, 05:34 PM
  #815
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Guys, Spezza is better than Getzlaf. Getzlaf can be better than Spezza.

Done.

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08-15-2012, 05:37 PM
  #816
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Kesler, Ballard, 2nd for Ryan, Beauchemin, Cogliano?

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08-15-2012, 05:53 PM
  #817
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I think Spezza and Getzlaf are pretty even keeled.

Just by reputation Getzlaf is superior to Spezza though.
Spezza will always be considered as defensively irresponsible while Getlaf will always be remembered by his cup and gold medal.

But deep down, i think if you switched the two from their respective spots. Ducks to Senators and vice versa, both would have the same careers.

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08-15-2012, 06:02 PM
  #818
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Kesler, Ballard, 2nd for Ryan, Beauchemin, Cogliano?
Even if Beauch didn't have an NTC, the answer would be no.

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08-15-2012, 06:26 PM
  #819
Paul4587
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
AND Spezza had much worse line support than Getzlaf in past 5 years. Greening, Butler... Lol.
The whole supporting cast argument is one of the most flawed around. Elite players will produce no matter who their linemates are. Getzlaf is lucky to have been able to play with Perry his whole career but that being said, Perry is equally as lucky to have been able to play with Getzlaf who was a huge part of his MVP season.

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08-15-2012, 07:06 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
The whole supporting cast argument is one of the most flawed around. Elite players will produce no matter who their linemates are. Getzlaf is lucky to have been able to play with Perry his whole career but that being said, Perry is equally as lucky to have been able to play with Getzlaf who was a huge part of his MVP season.
Do you agree that Spezza is a better player now than he was when he played with Heatley? Then why is he producing less points without him?

You are correct, elite players should produce regardless of their line-mates, but, the supporting cast argument is not completely flawed. In the same way that Perry is lucky to play with Getzlaf, Bobby Butler is equally lucky to have a player like Spezza make him look like a 20 to 30 goal scorer.

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08-15-2012, 07:11 PM
  #821
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Do you agree that Spezza is a better player now than he was when he played with Heatley? Then why is he producing less points without him?
Because scoring has gone down significantly since 2005-06. If you want to play the supporting cast argument, how about Spezza being able to play on the same PP unit as Karlsson? Getzlaf's top scoring defenseman had 29 points, Spezza's had 78.

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08-15-2012, 07:12 PM
  #822
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Stick to the topic. If you want to discuss who is better, Spezza or Getzlaf, do it in a more appropriate place.

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08-15-2012, 08:34 PM
  #823
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Because scoring has gone down significantly since 2005-06. If you want to play the supporting cast argument, how about Spezza being able to play on the same PP unit as Karlsson? Getzlaf's top scoring defenseman had 29 points, Spezza's had 78.
And out of the past few years, that was the only one where Spezza played with a better dman than Getzlaf. Similarly his ppg went up...

Acquiring a strong supporting cast to increase Spezza and his lines production is the reason Ottawa would even want to make a trade for Ryan. If that wasn't the case, there would be little reason for Ottawa to waste any assets to replace a guy like Bobby Butler for Ryan...

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08-15-2012, 08:42 PM
  #824
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Acquiring a strong supporting cast to increase Spezza and his lines production is the reason Ottawa would even want to make a trade for Ryan. If that wasn't the case, there would be little reason for Ottawa to waste any assets to replace a guy like Bobby Butler for Ryan...
The main reason to replace a guy like Butler with a guy like Ryan is getting production from Ryan himself, not hoping for a spike in production from his potential linemates due to having Ryan around.

That's obviously a side effect you always hope to see, but historically, yes, quality of linemates doesn't correlate with individual production to the degree many seem to suggest.

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08-15-2012, 09:14 PM
  #825
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I'll chime in Getzlaf at his absolute best, is not only an extremely talented playmaker, but he can play with an edge that Spezza can't. I'd take Getzlaf 10 times out of 10 if I'm building a team. Spezza is extremely talented as well, but he isn't at Getzlaf's level.

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