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David Desharnais next contract

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Old
08-16-2012, 06:43 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
I think he can be lowballed because he's short so he can't bring that physical dimension; he's making only 875K and a huge increase isn't necessary. I think he can be signed for multiple seasons at $2.5M per.
A bit like I said earlier.

NOW? Possibly.

If he has a similar season than the one he had last lear? He'll get offersheeted to a better salary.

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08-16-2012, 06:44 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
My point regarding Desharnais is not short term issue, cause we have what it takes to surround him properly, its more about a mid - long term vision now that we have Gally in the system and that his chances to crack the line-up next year (2013-14) are pretty good.. My point is, do you want Gally to center our third line next year with marginal wingers to play with or you want to give the kid some of our best players to put him in a winning situation right from the start? I mean, can we agree that Desharnais has to play with our best wingers to succeed? Do you really see him centering our third or fourth line? No question, to be useful to the team, DD need to play on the top 2 lines with proper linemates and get ton of PP time.. The prob (my prob at least), if you want to keep him with the team, you need to send a respected vet like Plekanec, who can do an indredible job centering a second line on about every NHL teams, centering the third line to do the dirty job of trying to form a realiable line with unproven or more defensively minded wingers.. Frankly, Plekanec doesnt deserved it, there is no way he will accept a such downgrade and Im quite in agreement with this.. So you have 4 names for 3 spots in the hat (3 first centers).. Gally Pleks Desharnais Eller.. I know some of you are in total love with DD, but to me there is no question, Plekanec is the best overall player of the 2 and should remains on the top 6 of this team.. Then you have DD vs Gally for the other spot on the top 6, Eller could be also in the mix then as he is a big skilled kid with ton of upside.. Who do you rather have between the 3? Its too soon to tell but one thing we know, Eller can do the dirty job on the third line, he brings something this line-up lacks down the middle, a big body presence responsible defensively and tough to play against.. So Im not a predicator but I can read between the lines, unless Eller is moved on the wings for good and that the org. takes the decision to play Gally on the third line to start his NHL carreer next year, DD has very slim chances to survive here very long unless he keeps improving at the point where management starts thinking about moving Plekanec, what is very very unlikely IMO.
I have the same issue with DD and I'm still seeing an outside chance Leblanc will eventually play in the middle. I'm thinking that the solution in 2 years is to actually have Plekanec be the 3rd center and let him focus on being a total shutdown guy. If Eller keeps progressing physically I think his offense will at some point grow, so it might work something like this.

2013-2014
Maxpac - Gally - Gionta
Eller - DD - Cole
Prust - Pleks - Leblanc
Moen - White - Bourque
Gomez - Gallagher/Colberg

When you think about it, DD is the kind of 2nd center we want, more than Eller and Plekanec, he provides offensive output for himself and his wingers but you don't want him playing against the top other team top line. Then it becomes Gally vs Pleks for the 1st line. I don't think that will be a fair fight, Gally offensively is too gifted to be used on the 3rd line and we'll need to have Maxpac score at 35+ goals pace still. Not sure Plekanec is that kind of play maker, he's more a 30-30 center than a 10-50(dd). This way we have center depth even if Gally goes down, or even if 2 of the centers go down. Gallagher can pitch in on the first 2 lines and hopefully Colberg is knocking on the door in case 2 of the scoring wingers are down. I'll remember 2011-2012 for being the year that our team got much worse with injuries, no depth.

Then there's the future. Gallagher / Colberg are DD's competition imo. If Gionta / Cole don't get downgraded, expect to see DD shipped out when Colberg/Gallagher makes it. Gallagher gets a small headstart on Colberg.


Last edited by SOLR: 08-16-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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08-16-2012, 06:48 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I have the same issue with DD and I'm still seeing an outside chance Leblanc will eventually play in the middle. I'm thinking that the solution in 2 years is to actually have Plekanec be the 3rd center and let him focus on being a total shutdown guy. If Eller keeps progressing physically I think his offense will at some point grow, so it might work something like this.

2013-2014
Maxpac - Gally - Gionta
Eller - DD - Cole
Prust - Pleks - Leblanc
Moen - White - Bourque
Gomez - Gallagher/Colberg

When you think about it, DD is the kind of 2nd center we want, more than Eller and Plekanec, he provides offensive output for himself and his wingers but you don't want him playing against the top other team top line. Then it becomes Gally vs Pleks for the 1st line. I don't think that will be a fair fight, Gally offensively is too gifted to be used on the 3rd line and we'll need to have Maxpac score at 35+ goals pace still. Not sure Plekanec is that kind of play maker, he's more a 30-30 center than a 10-50(dd). This way we have center depth even if Gally goes down, or even if 2 of the centers go down. Gallagher can pitch in on the first 2 lines and hopefully Colberg is knocking on the door in case 2 of the scoring wingers are down. I'll remember 2011-2012 for being the year that our team got much worse with injuries, no depth.
My biggest problem with that is... 2013-2014 is a bit early to pencil Gally in the lineup. And that Lars Eller never proved he could handle ANY kind of duty on wing, let alone 2nd line duty.

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08-16-2012, 07:02 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
My biggest problem with that is... 2013-2014 is a bit early to pencil Gally in the lineup. And that Lars Eller never proved he could handle ANY kind of duty on wing, let alone 2nd line duty.
Eller: I think there's a physical reason for that, he was hurt to his shoulder. Let's see how he is after a real summer of training. Also, with what Center Eller played wing? Gomez and Plekanec? I think DD can make it work.

Gally is not the kind of kid you want in the AHL and I don't think he will play more than one extra year in the CHL.

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08-16-2012, 07:47 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, he kept a .51 PPG while playing 3rd/4th line with Benoit Pouliot and Mathieu Darche, so...

Wrong answer.....DD had 8 points in powerplay and he didn't play with either Darche or Pouliot on the powerplay.

Actually with garbage linemate he only made 14 points in 43 games
>It's 28 points a season

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08-16-2012, 08:21 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
My biggest problem with that is... 2013-2014 is a bit early to pencil Gally in the lineup. And that Lars Eller never proved he could handle ANY kind of duty on wing, let alone 2nd line duty.
Lars Eller didn't had any chance to prove it either.

I remember Pacioretty....first two season stuck on the third line......
86 games, only had 6 goals and 19 passes for 25 points.

And we put him on the second (With Gomez nonetheless) and he put up 14 goals and 10 passes for 24 points in 37 games.

Eller is in the same position as Pacioretty was. Never got a chance so far.

And Eller got 16 goals last year.
16 goals playing 300 minutes less than Desharnais
Playing 200 PP minutes less than Desharnais
Playing with far worst winger than Desharnais
Playing a shutdown type of game.

Give him all that Desharnais had last years......and you have a center able to score 25-30 goals a year. Passes are great.....Goals are way better!!!

Just look at powerplay.

Eller scored 2 goals playing 52 minutes in PP
Desharnais scored 3 goals playing 266 minutes in PP

And don't start with the arguments that he is a playmaker not a scorer (just like Gomez and Koivu used to be) cause Pacioretty only scored 4 goals in 250 minutes of PP


What proof Desharnais had before getting his chance?? None, he got his chance because if this guy don't put up offensive, he's totally useless (can't play shutdown, can't play physical, can't play energy line.....so he must be on an offensive line or on the bench).

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08-16-2012, 08:36 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Wrong answer.....DD had 8 points in powerplay and he didn't play with either Darche or Pouliot on the powerplay.

Actually with garbage linemate he only made 14 points in 43 games
>It's 28 points a season
Actually, you made me realize something. This rookie got 8 pts on the PP. That means about 15 points on the PP for the year on the 2nd wave. That's only 3 points under Pleky's production centering the 1st wave. Pretty impressive.

Also, a 28 ES points rookie season, playing 10 mins with so-called garbage players, is also pretty much an accomplishment.

That year was just an indication that with better players, he would deliver, and he did.

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08-16-2012, 08:51 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Lars Eller didn't had any chance to prove it either.

I remember Pacioretty....first two season stuck on the third line......
86 games, only had 6 goals and 19 passes for 25 points.

And we put him on the second (With Gomez nonetheless) and he put up 14 goals and 10 passes for 24 points in 37 games.

Eller is in the same position as Pacioretty was. Never got a chance so far.

And Eller got 16 goals last year.
16 goals playing 300 minutes less than Desharnais
Playing 200 PP minutes less than Desharnais
Playing with far worst winger than Desharnais
Playing a shutdown type of game.

Give him all that Desharnais had last years......and you have a center able to score 25-30 goals a year. Passes are great.....Goals are way better!!!

Just look at powerplay.

Eller scored 2 goals playing 52 minutes in PP
Desharnais scored 3 goals playing 266 minutes in PP

And don't start with the arguments that he is a playmaker not a scorer (just like Gomez and Koivu used to be) cause Pacioretty only scored 4 goals in 250 minutes of PP


What proof Desharnais had before getting his chance?? None, he got his chance because if this guy don't put up offensive, he's totally useless (can't play shutdown, can't play physical, can't play energy line.....so he must be on an offensive line or on the bench).
Do you understand that in order to get those goals, they have to get the passes first ? Ever played hockey ?

Weak and flawed argumentation...

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08-16-2012, 08:51 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
Actually, you made me realize something. This rookie got 8 pts on the PP. That means about 15 points on the PP for the year on the 2nd wave. That's only 3 points under Pleky's production centering the 1st wave. Pretty impressive.

Also, a 28 ES points rookie season, playing 10 mins with so-called garbage players, is also pretty much an accomplishment.

That year was just an indication that with better players, he would deliver, and he did.
Points in powerplay are easy points to get.

So you should be impress that Weber got more goals than Desharnais in PP?
So you should be impress that Kaberle got more points than Pacioretty ?

Nevermind.......your opinions is as good as mine......but i'll never sign a player long-term or even talk about signing a player long-terms when that player didn't even scored 30 goals in the NHL yet.

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08-16-2012, 09:26 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Do you understand that in order to get those goals, they have to get the passes first ? Ever played hockey ?

Weak and flawed argumentation...
So you would agree that Kaberle is an important players?
28 passes.....that makes him the 25th in passes in the league.

I once put up all the video from the Cole and Pacioretty goals.....and i'm sorry to say that these guys don't need a great playmakers to score goals (Go and look at it on youtube it's obvious).

DD missed one games last year against Vancouver.....Plekanec took his place.
Results: 2 goals for Cole, 2 passes for Max, 1 passes For Plek....all players ends up at +2!!!!

But here's for you the video of Cole's hat trick
Desharnais had 2 passes on these goals.

I don't see a great playmaking ability of DD in any of these goals.
In fact, i see Cole doing all the works and Desharnais got points for barely touching the puck and making simple plays every players can make.



Here's another video...Desharnais 1 goals and two passes!!!
2 goals for Pacioretty

I wonder who helped who gettin points



Yeah you need passes to put up goals......but with some players like Cole and Pacioretty it's way easier to get passes

And to answer you: I played hockey.....can put up as many videos you want, but in the end you'll see that DD didn't really help Cole and Max getting goals....But Cole and Max helped DD getting passes!!!

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08-16-2012, 09:34 AM
  #86
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Who cares if DD didn't show up on these goals. For every "invisible" play that resulted in a goal, there are more good plays that didn't result in one.

All that matters are the wins.

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08-16-2012, 09:44 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
My biggest problem with that is... 2013-2014 is a bit early to pencil Gally in the lineup. And that Lars Eller never proved he could handle ANY kind of duty on wing, let alone 2nd line duty.
Hockey News pencils Galchenyuk in for 2012-2013. Then again, they also list Alexander Avtsin and Andreas Engqvist as two of our top-10 prospects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
And to answer you: I played hockey.....can put up as many videos you want, but in the end you'll see that DD didn't really help Cole and Max getting goals....But Cole and Max helped DD getting passes!!!
How come Cole never scored 35 before?

How come Cole and Pacioretty constantly praised Desharnais? They love playing with him.

If they didn't score goals without crazy feeds by Desharnais, they'd be useless. They can though because they are good hockey players. It works both ways. Pretty crazy that Cole scored a career high in points and goals, and he credits his linemates, but people on a hockey forum try to find ways to bring it down.


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08-16-2012, 10:05 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post



Here's another video...Desharnais 1 goals and two passes!!!
2 goals for Pacioretty

I wonder who helped who gettin points

Not sure why you put that specific video on. Desharnais is clearly shown to be the key passer for the two goals where he got an assist.

And the goal he got was very opportunistic positioning. The kind of stuff Desharnais is praised for. That's how he scores goal, you obviously need someone to pass it to you.

As for the Cole Hat Trick vid, two of the goals were really strong individual effort from Cole/bit of luck, but the Desharnais-Subban-Cole PP was a strong passing sequence from Desharnais. He handles the puck extremely quickly, keeping the play moving whenever he got the chance.

It's not necessarily a puckhandling skill, it's strong hockey vision. He just knows who is available for a pass, he doesn't need to take the time to look and consider.

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08-16-2012, 10:17 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Eller: I think there's a physical reason for that, he was hurt to his shoulder. Let's see how he is after a real summer of training. Also, with what Center Eller played wing? Gomez and Plekanec? I think DD can make it work.

Gally is not the kind of kid you want in the AHL and I don't think he will play more than one extra year in the CHL.
I don't think it has anything to do with his shoulder because he looked much better and comfortable at center.

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08-16-2012, 10:50 AM
  #90
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I don't think it has anything to do with his shoulder because he looked much better and comfortable at center.
I agree.

However, the shoulder affected the training. As a winger your physical edge is more important. That's why I want to see after 1-2 summers of good training and see if can grow the strength to become effective in all forwards position. I'm not suggesting he should become a perennial winger, I'm just saying he's probably the odd man out if we have Gally - DD - Pleks in the lineup(that suggests our winger prospects are not yet ready). I always prefer having 1 or 2 more options at center playing the wings, because you will get injuries and if you have Eller as a backup, that's better than be forced to play White, Armstrong etc.

Eller didn't play with Desharnais in the middle either yet, maybe he could be effective with a better playmaker.

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08-16-2012, 11:04 AM
  #91
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I think if Eller wasn't stuck in the 3-4th line he would put up some good numbers. Thing is Desharnais if he cant play top 6, he's not a bottom 6. He doesn't have the size for those positions. Eller can play top 6 and bottom 6.

For the time being I would leave Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole line intact.
If Galchenyuk does make the team, put him LW so he can learn from Plekanec. (Tyler Seguin played RW with Patrice Bergeron and Brad Marchand) no harm in learning. Getzlaf also played RW in his first year.

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole
Galchenyuk/Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Bourque-Eller-Leblanc
Moen-White-Prust
Armstrong

I don't think Gomez can slack off with Therien there.

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08-16-2012, 11:21 AM
  #92
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To the DD/Plekanec argument, Plekanec scored 57 points with several different wingers, many ineffective, and many had no chemistry. DD scored 60 with a guy he has amazing chemistry with. Draw from that what you will, but you know the point I'm getting at.

As for a contract extension for Davey, give him something like 2 years and 6-7M. I just have a really underwhelming feeling about DD, and feel he'll be the odd man out when Gally breaks into the league. He's a better centre than Eller right now, but clearly he's the guy between the two of them that can convert to wing and not take a large hit in production. Eller should progress into a steady 2C role within 2-3 years, and I see DD as a stopgap deserving protected minutes against 2nd/3rd line opposition (which is exactly how he had such good production over the past season too). If he can prove he can handle the top lines, then great! Otherwise, keep him in a role that we know he'll succeed at for now.

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08-16-2012, 11:22 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole
Galchenyuk/Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Bourque-Eller-Leblanc
Moen-White-Prust
Armstrong
Our team is so weak. To think that the defense is even worse han that.

At least we have a good 4th line

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08-16-2012, 11:29 AM
  #94
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Personal opinion alert:

I think if you sign DD, you have to knowing that eventually, he will more than likely be pushed to wing. It may not be next year, it may not even be in two years, but in three or so it is extremely likely that a number of factors (Galchenyuk, two better defensive centers in Turtleneck and Eller) may just make it so DD cannot fit in at the centre slot.

I know that DD can most definitely improve, but until he hits 70 points (which we know Plekanec can hit), Plekanec should always be penciled in as the second line centre once Galchenyuk takes over. DD vs. Eller is not a competition, and they are not comparable until Eller gets legit top two minutes so everyone can see what exactly he can do with those minutes (which, unfortunately, will not happen until someone gets injured), and DD isn't in the cards for a defensive shut down role. So really, the debate should be more focused on Plekanec vs. DD in the future, and I am the type to go with the "known" quantity, i.e: Plekanec

All this is moot of course if someone gets traded, but I hope it's not Plekanec or Eller, because I truly believe versatile players are a large cog in a good team.

Edit: I'd just like to add, not in comparison to DD or anything, but I think everyone has forgotten that Plekanec really is a pretty good playmaker when he isn't backchecking constantly

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08-16-2012, 11:31 AM
  #95
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Not sure what the argument is really. I'm a DD fan and I wouldn't give him a long term deal. Yet, if he comes out next year with say 8 points in 10 games and looks just as he did last year then yes I'd give him a 2-3 year contract extension. Preferrably something like 2 years 3.5 mil per. So he knows he's not tied down to that contract and he's moveable should we need to move him. I like him, he's our ONLY pure playmaker on the team. I remember when people played with Koivu they'd come out of their slumps. I see it with DD too. Cole was getting the chances but not delivering and he got paired with DD and suddenly it looked easy. Does it mean DD made him? Hell no. Just means chemistry is an important thing and with DD who is a pure pass first time of guy, he helps the shooters focus on getting open and getting the right shot.

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08-16-2012, 11:42 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Outch, prepare yourself to be desapointed..

Im not saying he is a bad player, he never stopped improving and he deserves alot of credit for doing it.. But when you look at the situation coldly (cause believe it or not Im a fan of his determination and personality), DD remains a pretty average skater for a such undersized little man and his shot isnt a threat for the opponents at all.. Still, I think some people just dont realize all the space both Cole and Pac create on the ice with their combinaison of size, speed and talent, what gives DD more time to make his plays.. you put Plekanec between those 2 guys and I would bet my house that this line would kill the competition every shifts at both ends of the ice.. Anyway, as long as DD will play between Cole and Pac he has no reason to be worried, his wingers create enough of room for him to showcase his playmaking skills..
Look at how good DD is in the trafic around the net. Win battle all night long. Sure that help to have big guys around him. Gretzky played with Semenko ! Greztky wasnt big, wasnt a fast skater or a powerful sniper, but still managed to biult a decent career. Smart player find a way to succed.

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08-16-2012, 11:48 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Hockey News pencils Galchenyuk in for 2012-2013. Then again, they also list Alexander Avtsin and Andreas Engqvist as two of our top-10 prospects.


How come Cole never scored 35 before?

How come Cole and Pacioretty constantly praised Desharnais? They love playing with him.

If they didn't score goals without crazy feeds by Desharnais, they'd be useless. They can though because they are good hockey players. It works both ways. Pretty crazy that Cole scored a career high in points and goals, and he credits his linemates, but people on a hockey forum try to find ways to bring it down.
So you're saying that Cole scored 35 goals because he played with DD
So i assume Pacioretty's 33 goals are also du to DD?

Here's a little stats for you.

Cole got 35 goals....but DD only particapte to 16 of them on the scoreboard
Max got 33 goals....but DD only participate to 13 of them on the scoreboard

So why in the hell poeple think that DD was the creator of their goals when he didn't even particapte to half of them (42% actually).

Cole and Pacioretty are good scorer with or without Desharnais

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08-16-2012, 11:56 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
So you're saying that Cole scored 35 goals because he played with DD
So i assume Pacioretty's 33 goals are also du to DD?

Here's a little stats for you.

Cole got 35 goals....but DD only particapte to 16 of them on the scoreboard
Max got 33 goals....but DD only participate to 13 of them on the scoreboard

So why in the hell poeple think that DD was the creator of their goals when he didn't even particapte to half of them (42% actually).

Cole and Pacioretty are good scorer with or without Desharnais
To be fair, that argument is odd. Imagine subban does a stetch pass to Cole at the other team's blueline. It's just intercepted by a d-man and then Cole immediately stick checks him, gets the puck back and scores. Subban won't get an assist. So it's not really fair. It's a lot more complicated than that. Not to mention, they aren't playing together 100% of the time.

Either way, suppose we ignore the other situations and take it at face value. DD was not the reason for Cole and Max's success but by same token, if he only participated in 29 assists from those two guys he managed to collect 15 assists setting up other people. So by contrast, IF you remove the assists generated from the guys who plays with the majority of the time(which is like taking away backstrom's assists from ovechkin and semin/laich's goals) DD still ends up 4th on the team in assists for forwards. This 2nd part is less related to your reply but just an observation.

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08-16-2012, 12:01 PM
  #99
seanont
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Lets not forget the mistakes of our past gm's and wait until players have career years and then been forced to overpay or watch them go. A good GM in today's game needs to recognize this fact and locks them down.

A few years back when Detroit had won the cup both Pavel and Zet were making around 2.5m each because Detroit had locked them up before they had career years. They both got paid big time on the 3rd contracts but were smart bargains on their second contracts and gave them space cap space to win a cup

As for DD he came in with no hype or size but has proven he can just flat out play and has done it at every level of hockey despite being over looked and under rated. I wouldn't pay him more the 3m but to not sign him because we think the unproven players with Hype and size might be better is crazy. I remember people saying the same things about Marty St.Louis and Recchi and if DD can be half the player they were I would sign him.

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08-16-2012, 01:13 PM
  #100
NewHabsEra*
 
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Someone in this thread reminded me the Vancouver game where Pleks took DD's place between Cole and Pac cause of an injury, and I recall this line was indeed killing the competition that night against one of the best teams in the league.. They were a beauty to watch every time they touched the ice.. I think everyone will agree Plekanec deserves better wingers than the crap he played with last year after all he did for us.. I feel its unfair, we should at least give him one of Cole or Pac..

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