HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Shea Weber

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-15-2012, 10:45 AM
  #26
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,880
vCash: 500
Don't get your hopes up, fellas.

JVR21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 10:50 AM
  #27
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,050
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Don't get your hopes up, fellas.
Hopes are up.

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 11:51 AM
  #28
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,413
vCash: 500
Preds now face reality of having to pay Weber

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Seems that making the ego decision to keep Weber might come around to bite NSH in the a$$.
Yeah and their fans.....the hold up is the big super computer math they are still calculating so that they can jack up their ticket prices..

They asked for it....time to pay the piper

Enjoy the supposed normal ticket price increase...

Quote:
The Preds knew they’d face a challenge when they matched the Flyers’ 14-year, $110 million offer sheet for the All-Star defenseman last month. But now, as The Nashville Tennesseean notes, the dust has settled – and the Preds must face the reality of paying Weber.

CEO Jeff Cogen believes they can do so without raising ticket prices dramatically, however.

"We have shown steady growth over the past couple of years in increasing ticket price, and I would argue we're giving the fans good value for their money still," Cogen told The Tennesseean's Josh Cooper. "As long as we continue to do that, I'm hopeful we can have normal price increases every year."

http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-ph...253&feedID=704

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 12:17 PM
  #29
Jumping
Registered User
 
Jumping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Atlanta Ga
Country: United States
Posts: 1,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
preds fan here.... even if weber asked for a trade nashville has to pay him $13 million the day the deal is signed and another 14 mil before the one year no trade provision expires so a trade wont happen.. he will be a pred, period.

If he holds out, the contract will be tolled, since matching an offer sheet is considered to having "entered into a binding agreement"

this story is getting blown out of proportion... nobody knows for sure if the deal is unsigned(only reference is a blogger who assumed it isn't) and if it truly isnt what the holdup is... but it wont matter one bit.

Weber didnt go through this process just to turn around and hold out and NOT get paid...
This.
Would you turn down 27 million dollars? And if there is no season he still gets it.

Jumping is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 12:25 PM
  #30
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,050
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumping View Post
This.
Would you turn down 27 million dollars? And if there is no season he still gets it.
I would turn down 27m if I can sit out and get 27m and a better team

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 01:35 PM
  #31
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,877
vCash: 500
Many NHL executives didn't think Nashville could match our offer sheet. Also Dreger reported that from sources close to Weber, he doesn't sign that offer sheet with the intention of Nashville to match it. You can put it anyway you want, Weber is not exactly thrilled with staying in Nashville. He will be moved in the very near future when that 1 year restriction expires. I hope Poile doesn't have a ****** up his tush and reopens trade talks with us when he is made available.

Also if the new CBA does include more revenue sharing to help out the smaller markets, it wouldn't hurt as much for Nashville to trade him away.

One more thing, the franchise wouldn't die like some people think it would. Yes it would hurt, but if they keep that team competitive(which they have done for so long now) it would hurt, but not cripple them.

Alsooooo I do believe Weber will get his NTC.


Last edited by Prongo: 08-15-2012 at 01:49 PM.
Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 01:45 PM
  #32
YuioIklo
Registered User
 
YuioIklo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quebec
Country: Martinique
Posts: 1,425
vCash: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
No. The offer sheet is a binding agreement. He is signed for the next 14 years.
No. He belongs to NSH for one year because they matched the OS, but if Weber doesn't sign the contract, he's a FA next July 24. He would have to sit out the entire year, which is unlikely, and he wouldn't be paid.

Other possibility : If he hasn't sign on September 15, and the new CBA (whenever they agree) makes this contract invalid, it is invalid and he becomes a RFA again (not sure about this one).

imo, he will sign the contract, though. It is extremely unlikely that Weber wants to be a Flyers enough to let 27 mils on the table.

YuioIklo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 02:47 PM
  #33
Murphy7
Drop the puck
 
Murphy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country:
Posts: 1,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
No. He belongs to NSH for one year because they matched the OS, but if Weber doesn't sign the contract, he's a FA next July 24. He would have to sit out the entire year, which is unlikely, and he wouldn't be paid.

Other possibility : If he hasn't sign on September 15, and the new CBA (whenever they agree) makes this contract invalid, it is invalid and he becomes a RFA again (not sure about this one).

imo, he will sign the contract, though. It is extremely unlikely that Weber wants to be a Flyers enough to let 27 mils on the table.
Is this in the CBA somewhere? Because that's something I'm pretty sure no one has heard. Weber is NOT a FA in a year if he doesn't sign. He signed an offer sheet from the Flyers, in which he agreed to play for either the Flyers or the Preds for the next 14 years. Not signing an SPC doesn't nullify the agreement he's already signed to be one of two teams' property for the next 14 seasons.

Now, if he's not tendered the deal by the Preds, that's something entirely different. I'm sure Bettman would hand down stiff penalties for such shenanigans. And the Flyers would quickly lobby to be awarded the player they signed.

Both sides (Preds and Weber) could be looking for more favorable terms in the next CBA. Maybe find loopholes out of the mess that Nashville was forced into. That makes good business sense on both sides. They are, after all, contractually obligated to sign the SPC.

Murphy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 03:39 PM
  #34
JABEE
Registered User
 
JABEE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Many NHL executives didn't think Nashville could match our offer sheet. Also Dreger reported that from sources close to Weber, he doesn't sign that offer sheet with the intention of Nashville to match it. You can put it anyway you want, Weber is not exactly thrilled with staying in Nashville. He will be moved in the very near future when that 1 year restriction expires. I hope Poile doesn't have a ****** up his tush and reopens trade talks with us when he is made available.

Also if the new CBA does include more revenue sharing to help out the smaller markets, it wouldn't hurt as much for Nashville to trade him away.

One more thing, the franchise wouldn't die like some people think it would. Yes it would hurt, but if they keep that team competitive(which they have done for so long now) it would hurt, but not cripple them.

Alsooooo I do believe Weber will get his NTC.
This is what makes me believe this NMC request is a tactic being used by Weber to stall the process and to pressure Nashville into trading him after this season. He signed a contract that would make it very difficult for Nashville to match. It was an offer sheet that hurts Nashville's chances of winning. People like to say that Weber's agent was a rogue and saying that Nashville was rebuilding or how things changed after Suter left were just the agent, but Weber knows what he is doing. I'm sure Weber feels like Nashville is on the path to spend to win when it took them 6 days to match an offer sheet on their best player.

I think this will be a problem in the near future. I don't know why the media is eager to believe that Weber didn't actually want to leave Nashville and that he was just trying to get a max deal. He signed a deal he thought Nashville couldn't match. He wanted out. They were shopping him. The match was nothing more than asset management by Nashville. Weber is calling them on their bluff with a NMC that he would probably use to request a trade to Philadelphia.

JABEE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 03:39 PM
  #35
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
No. He belongs to NSH for one year because they matched the OS, but if Weber doesn't sign the contract, he's a FA next July 24. He would have to sit out the entire year, which is unlikely, and he wouldn't be paid.

Other possibility : If he hasn't sign on September 15, and the new CBA (whenever they agree) makes this contract invalid, it is invalid and he becomes a RFA again (not sure about this one).

imo, he will sign the contract, though. It is extremely unlikely that Weber wants to be a Flyers enough to let 27 mils on the table.
Does anyone know what a binding agreement is? He signed a contract. He is bound to those terms. The SPC is just a formality. If he sits out his contract will be tolled. He does not become a free agent until he completes the 14 year deal.

Fans are trying to make something out of nothing. Neither side is in a rush to formalize the SPC because it might be to their advantage to wait. There is no magical loophole that will see him become a Flyer.

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 03:44 PM
  #36
JABEE
Registered User
 
JABEE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Does anyone know what a binding agreement is? He signed a contract. He is bound to those terms. The SPC is just a formality. If he sits out his contract will be tolled. He does not become a free agent until he completes the 14 year deal.

Fans are trying to make something out of nothing. Neither side is in a rush to formalize the SPC because it might be to their advantage to wait. There is no magical loophole that will see him become a Flyer.
The agreement is only on the principle terms of the deal. It is an agreement in principle. Not a signed contract. What happens if the NHL introduces salary rollbacks in the new CBA and Nashville agreed to match with the expectation. What are the implications of Nashville and Weber signing a contract with terms that Nashville is fighting to lower before they are even payed out.

JABEE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 03:58 PM
  #37
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
The agreement is only on the principle terms of the deal. It is an agreement in principle. Not a signed contract. What happens if the NHL introduces salary rollbacks in the new CBA and Nashville agreed to match with the expectation. What are the implications of Nashville and Weber signing a contract with terms that Nashville is fighting to lower before they are even payed out.
The CBA specifically spells out that it is a binding agreement. Therefore it is a legally enforceable contract. An arbitrator would handle it as if he signed the SPC. This is such a non-issue. The only people who believe he will become a free agent is some Flyers fans.

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 04:53 PM
  #38
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
The agreement is only on the principle terms of the deal. It is an agreement in principle. Not a signed contract. What happens if the NHL introduces salary rollbacks in the new CBA and Nashville agreed to match with the expectation. What are the implications of Nashville and Weber signing a contract with terms that Nashville is fighting to lower before they are even payed out.
It's a binding agreement.

10.3(b): ...such Restricted Free Agent and the Prior Club shall be deemed to have entered into a binding agreement, which they shall promptly formalize in an SPC...

Both Weber and the Nashville Predators are legally bound at this point.

Best case scenario for Philly is that Weber holds out for a NTC, the new CBA allows for money transfers and Weber forces his way to Philly next offseason with Philly paying the $13M July 1, 2013 bonus (along with a player package).

As far as a rollback, it wouldn't be Nashville fighting to lower the salary terms. That would be a term bargained for between the NHL and the NHLPA. Nashville and Weber would be bound by those terms if that's what was bargained for.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 05:41 PM
  #39
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,305
vCash: 500
The article in the CBA is ambiguous at best. The only thing I know for certain is that a signed offer sheet is not the same as a signed SPC.

hockeyfreak7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 09:37 PM
  #40
FlyersCup08
Registered User
 
FlyersCup08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 943
vCash: 500
If he holds out and the new CBA has a 5 year limit, does anyone know if that would void the current agreement?

The argument would be that only under the old CBA was the offersheet binding, unless an SPC is signed it won't carry over (not sure if this actually holds any water).

If that is the case, Weber is only screwing himself, and I bet the Preds would LOVE to have a chance at signing him to a short(er) term deal.

My point being, if this is an actual issue, it's not that the Flyers have any chance of getting him, but that Weber might simply lose a lot of money.

FlyersCup08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 09:50 PM
  #41
JABEE
Registered User
 
JABEE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
It's a binding agreement.

10.3(b): ...such Restricted Free Agent and the Prior Club shall be deemed to have entered into a binding agreement, which they shall promptly formalize in an SPC...

Both Weber and the Nashville Predators are legally bound at this point.

Best case scenario for Philly is that Weber holds out for a NTC, the new CBA allows for money transfers and Weber forces his way to Philly next offseason with Philly paying the $13M July 1, 2013 bonus (along with a player package).

As far as a rollback, it wouldn't be Nashville fighting to lower the salary terms. That would be a term bargained for between the NHL and the NHLPA. Nashville and Weber would be bound by those terms if that's what was bargained for.
Rollbacks have an impact on already agreed upon contracts. It would be the only way to implement the NHL's proposal of cutting the player's portion of the revenue from 57% to a number in the 40s. Since only the payment structure is currently layed out Nashville or Weber would be paying less under the NHL's proposal. I don't know. Weber is most likely staying in Nashville, but it still is weird that it has been over 20 days since the match without a signed contract and Nashville and Weber's agents are still squabbling over a standard NMC. That doesn't sound like a steady relationship between your captain and the team.

JABEE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 10:17 PM
  #42
BleedOrange
BuildThroughTheDraft
 
BleedOrange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Oshawa Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,055
vCash: 500
Dont think we have heard the last of this Nashville is in deep dodo bye matching the Weber offer sheet and Shea wanting a NTC/NMC put in before he signs i think in the end Shea gets what he wants Poile gives him his NTC and going to be surpised what happens after the 1 year is up or it may happen sooner then later.

BleedOrange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 11:08 PM
  #43
35NW8ING
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
35NW8ING's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
No. He belongs to NSH for one year because they matched the OS, but if Weber doesn't sign the contract, he's a FA next July 24. He would have to sit out the entire year, which is unlikely, and he wouldn't be paid.

Other possibility : If he hasn't sign on September 15, and the new CBA (whenever they agree) makes this contract invalid, it is invalid and he becomes a RFA again (not sure about this one).

imo, he will sign the contract, though. It is extremely unlikely that Weber wants to be a Flyers enough to let 27 mils on the table.
Wrong. The one year period starts when he signs his SPC, and if he doesn't sign it by Dec 1st, no credit for this year and the clock would start with the 2013-14 season.

35NW8ING is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-15-2012, 11:18 PM
  #44
YuioIklo
Registered User
 
YuioIklo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quebec
Country: Martinique
Posts: 1,425
vCash: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy7 View Post
Is this in the CBA somewhere? Because that's something I'm pretty sure no one has heard. Weber is NOT a FA in a year if he doesn't sign. He signed an offer sheet from the Flyers, in which he agreed to play for either the Flyers or the Preds for the next 14 years. Not signing an SPC doesn't nullify the agreement he's already signed to be one of two teams' property for the next 14 seasons.

Now, if he's not tendered the deal by the Preds, that's something entirely different. I'm sure Bettman would hand down stiff penalties for such shenanigans. And the Flyers would quickly lobby to be awarded the player they signed.

Both sides (Preds and Weber) could be looking for more favorable terms in the next CBA. Maybe find loopholes out of the mess that Nashville was forced into. That makes good business sense on both sides. They are, after all, contractually obligated to sign the SPC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Does anyone know what a binding agreement is? He signed a contract. He is bound to those terms. The SPC is just a formality. If he sits out his contract will be tolled. He does not become a free agent until he completes the 14 year deal.

Fans are trying to make something out of nothing. Neither side is in a rush to formalize the SPC because it might be to their advantage to wait. There is no magical loophole that will see him become a Flyer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Wrong. The one year period starts when he signs his SPC, and if he doesn't sign it by Dec 1st, no credit for this year and the clock would start with the 2013-14 season.
Well, I'll give you my source, not sure where it is in the CBA, but

"According to the terms of the current CBA, if Weber doesn’t sign his SPC by December 1 that means he is simply ineligible to play; it doesn’t not mean he and the Predators cannot sign and formalize the SPC after that date.

As far as his player status is concerned, that remains to be seen. According to the terms of the current CBA, he remains Predators property through July 24, 2013, deal or no deal. Weber turns 27 today (August 14), which means that effective July 1, 2013 (the beginning of the new league year) he is eligible as a Group 3 UFA. Keeping in mind that he is property of Nashville through July 24, 2013, that conceivably means that effective July 25, 2013, Shea Weber will be a UFA if he does not sign the current SPC. However, all of this assumes the rules of the current CBA being enforced."

http://thehockeyguys.net/weber-preda...or-the-flyers/

Take it FWIW.

YuioIklo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-16-2012, 06:57 AM
  #45
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Dont think we have heard the last of this Nashville is in deep dodo bye matching the Weber offer sheet and Shea wanting a NTC/NMC put in before he signs i think in the end Shea gets what he wants Poile gives him his NTC and going to be surpised what happens after the 1 year is up or it may happen sooner then later.
Wishful thinking. Move on from Shea Weber.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-16-2012, 07:05 AM
  #46
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
Rollbacks have an impact on already agreed upon contracts. It would be the only way to implement the NHL's proposal of cutting the player's portion of the revenue from 57% to a number in the 40s. Since only the payment structure is currently layed out Nashville or Weber would be paying less under the NHL's proposal. I don't know. Weber is most likely staying in Nashville, but it still is weird that it has been over 20 days since the match without a signed contract and Nashville and Weber's agents are still squabbling over a standard NMC. That doesn't sound like a steady relationship between your captain and the team.
Sure rollbacks have an impact, but there is nothing that Nashville or Shea Weber can do about it. It's collective bargaining. They are both bound by the agreement between the two groups, whatever it may be. It's not Nashville imposing any additional terms on Weber's contract, it's the NHLs agreement with ALL the players.

Why Weber hasn't signed his SPC is anybody's guess. Maybe they are/were waiting for a couple NHL/NHLPA proposals to go back and forth to see what is happening and what concessions are being made before finalizing the terms of the SPC. Maybe there is discord. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions over him not signing a SPC the minute the offersheet was matched. I can't imagine that Nashville would make a huge issue out of a NTC after matching this offersheet. I seriously doubt they matched it with the intention of ever trading Weber.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-16-2012, 10:08 AM
  #47
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Sure rollbacks have an impact, but there is nothing that Nashville or Shea Weber can do about it. It's collective bargaining. They are both bound by the agreement between the two groups, whatever it may be. It's not Nashville imposing any additional terms on Weber's contract, it's the NHLs agreement with ALL the players.

Why Weber hasn't signed his SPC is anybody's guess. Maybe they are/were waiting for a couple NHL/NHLPA proposals to go back and forth to see what is happening and what concessions are being made before finalizing the terms of the SPC. Maybe there is discord. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions over him not signing a SPC the minute the offersheet was matched. I can't imagine that Nashville would make a huge issue out of a NTC after matching this offersheet. I seriously doubt they matched it with the intention of ever trading Weber.
I can see NSH not wanting to give the NTC/NMC because it restricts, or completely removes, the flexibility the team would have in the event they do trade Weber.

I'm not sure how this all ends up working out or why it's happening, but the fact is that the SPC has yet to be formalized. IMO, the best d-man in the NHL is going to get exactly what he wants regardless of how HF members interpret the current CBA. If Weber really wants out of NSH, he will make it happen one way or another.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-16-2012, 10:26 AM
  #48
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,105
vCash: 500
What is there to get hopes up? He signed, they matched, he can't be traded. Period. If he really wanted out he should have demanded a sign-and-trade.

Unstable is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-16-2012, 10:59 AM
  #49
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,877
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
What is there to get hopes up? He signed, they matched, he can't be traded. Period. If he really wanted out he should have demanded a sign-and-trade.
I don't have hope with all the contract talks, but I do have hope in him getting a NTC/NMC. If he gets a full one, which he is holding out for, he will control where he goes. He is the best defenseman in the league right now, he should have that power no matter how he got his paycheck. The hope is he still views the Flyers as the best possible destination after 1 year in Nashville and demands a trade. I have said it before but he does not want to be in Nashville anymore, Dreger said it and many others. Money was not the only thing he was looking for, he wants to come to a team that continuously puts the effort out to compete for the cup. Also after next year, the Flyers most likely will look like an even sexier destination if the kids develop like we all hope.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-16-2012, 12:35 PM
  #50
Unstable
Registered User
 
Unstable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Exiled in NoVA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,105
vCash: 500
Fair enough. I don't think the Flyers have or will have the assets to make it possible or worthwhile to acquire him, but I guess there's no harm in hoping.

Unstable is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:09 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.