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David Desharnais next contract

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Old
08-16-2012, 01:21 PM
  #101
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Galchenyuk is our 1st line center of the future, and Plekanec can be the best 2nd line center in the NHL whose name is not "Evgeni Malkin".

I hope we can trade Desharnais at the end of the year for a lot of futures.

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08-16-2012, 01:25 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Galchenyuk is our 1st line center of the future, and Plekanec can be the best 2nd line center in the NHL whose name is not "Evgeni Malkin".

I hope we can trade Desharnais at the end of the year for a lot of futures.
Or just ship him to the wing..

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08-16-2012, 01:27 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Someone in this thread reminded me the Vancouver game where Pleks took DD's place between Cole and Pac cause of an injury, and I recall this line was indeed killing the competition that night against one of the best teams in the league.. They were a beauty to watch every time they touched the ice.. I think everyone will agree Plekanec deserves better wingers than the crap he played with last year after all he did for us.. I feel its unfair, we should at least give him one of Cole or Pac..
Was that the night where the general returned ? Oh, dat good feel.

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08-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #104
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Or just ship him to the wing..
Give me the right to doubt strongly about DD being moved to the wing.. The kid would get mishandled big time along the board..

I will add another thing about Desharnais, while he has a good vision and is a poison around the net, his puck skills remains pretty average.. Sorry but I just cant jump in DD's bandwagon..

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08-16-2012, 01:46 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Give me the right to doubt strongly about DD being moved to the wing.. The kid would get mishandled big time along the board..

I will add another thing about Desharnais, while he has a good vision and is a poison around the net, his puck skills remains pretty average.. Sorry but I just cant jump in DD's bandwagon..
Imagine the trade value double-D might have if he's as overrated among GMs as he is on this board.

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08-16-2012, 01:47 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Someone in this thread reminded me the Vancouver game where Pleks took DD's place between Cole and Pac cause of an injury, and I recall this line was indeed killing the competition that night against one of the best teams in the league.. They were a beauty to watch every time they touched the ice.. I think everyone will agree Plekanec deserves better wingers than the crap he played with last year after all he did for us.. I feel its unfair, we should at least give him one of Cole or Pac..
Pacioretty-DD-Gionta
Cole-Plekanec-Bourque

DD and pacioretty have played together since the AHL, only makes sense. Swap gionta and bourque as necessary.

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08-16-2012, 01:51 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Galchenyuk is our 1st line center of the future, and Plekanec can be the best 2nd line center in the NHL whose name is not "Evgeni Malkin".

I hope we can trade Desharnais at the end of the year for a lot of futures.
futures? he's like 25 years old. You know, same age as Price(Mind you DD is born in 86 so at best a year older). What do you expect to get? DD provides us with an offensive weapon. So what if he's not a true #1 C or whatever. The guy put up 60 points either way. He can help us, he's on a good contract and he's young. What do you think people would give for him?

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08-16-2012, 01:59 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
futures? he's like 25 years old. You know, same age as Price(Mind you DD is born in 86 so at best a year older). What do you expect to get? DD provides us with an offensive weapon. So what if he's not a true #1 C or whatever. The guy put up 60 points either way. He can help us, he's on a good contract and he's young. What do you think people would give for him?
I don't know what his trade value is so I'm not sure we should trade him. I hope he can fetch at least a 1st rounder.

The only reason he got 60 points is that he got the two best wingers and disproportionate offensive zone starts and PP time. We simply transferred offensive production from Eller and Plekanec to Desharnais, there's no evidence he actually did better than they would have done.

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08-16-2012, 02:02 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Pacioretty-DD-Gionta
Cole-Plekanec-Bourque

DD and pacioretty have played together since the AHL, only makes sense. Swap gionta and bourque as necessary.
No more Bourque on Pleks' wing PLZ!! I think I would try Armstrong over that lazzy D'Agostini clone.. Seriously, Doan would be a perfect fit there but its far from a done thing, so hopefully one of our kids is ready for that role (Leblanc Gallagher)

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08-16-2012, 02:06 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't know what his trade value is so I'm not sure we should trade him. I hope he can fetch at least a 1st rounder.

The only reason he got 60 points is that he got the two best wingers and disproportionate offensive zone starts and PP time. We simply transferred offensive production from Eller and Plekanec to Desharnais, there's no evidence he actually did better than they would have done.
Eller had a career year. Did you feel he should've hit 50 points or something?

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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
No more Bourque on Pleks' wing PLZ!! I think I would try Armstrong over that lazzy D'Agostini clone.. Seriously, Doan would be a perfect fit there but its far from a done thing, so hopefully one of our kids is ready for that role (Leblanc Gallagher)
That's fine as well. Cole-Plekanec-Leblanc would be fine be me as well. Bourque can be on first line with DD and gionta with Eller.

Cole-Plekanec-Leblanc
Pacioretty-Desharnais-Bourque
Gomez/Moen/Prust-Eller-Gionta

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08-16-2012, 02:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Imagine the trade value double-D might have if he's as overrated among GMs as he is on this board.
Unfortunately, there is no more Milburry in this league.. Oh wait, maybe we have a chance to get Flames' first round pick with Jay Feaster there..

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08-16-2012, 02:12 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Give me the right to doubt strongly about DD being moved to the wing.. The kid would get mishandled big time along the board..

I will add another thing about Desharnais, while he has a good vision and is a poison around the net, his puck skills remains pretty average.. Sorry but I just cant jump in DD's bandwagon..
Still our best forward in shootout.

DD has been underrated all his life, nothing change now. We will see and hope for the best. I still predict 70+ pts this year, and wouldnt be surprised at all if he reach the 80 pts mark.

And the Pacioretty-DD discussion is ridiculus ! Sorry but every center of this ligue have good linemate. DD did better then Plekanec, Eller, he became our 1st line center, and got our best wingers. Sure they help each other, no question, hockey is a team game, big new ! I do remember the junior years of DD. He was playing with promising linemate as Lascek, Zaggrapan or Boisclair. At this time, most people tought that DD was a good junior player, btu most of his production was from those great guys around him. Lascek play now in the LNAH (!), Boisclair too + CHL, and Zagrapan (1st rounder, 13th overall) played 2-3 AHL bad years, then KHL, and now SM-liiga... DD ?

Brock Trotter was a star playing alonside DD ! And I don't talk abour his ECHL only year... (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...026942008.html)

Every ****in time, DD is not the reason everybody produce around him. Its a joke !

DD is just an exceptional hockey IQ, a dedicated player, and he's just beginning to shine. Pax - DD will be a force for the CH for years to come. Book it man

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08-16-2012, 02:17 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Eller had a career year. Did you feel he should've hit 50 points or something?



That's fine as well. Cole-Plekanec-Leblanc would be fine be me as well. Bourque can be on first line with DD and gionta with Eller.

Cole-Plekanec-Leblanc
Pacioretty-Desharnais-Bourque
Gomez/Moen/Prust-Eller-Gionta
Switch Gio and Bourque and you have there 2 very potent first lines.. Bourque will have to earn his ice time on the third line, personally I expect him to watch alot of games from the pressbox.. Unfortunately, Eller should have a defensively minded first role this year..

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08-16-2012, 02:18 PM
  #114
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If a player is given disproportionate offensive zone starts, power play time, and the team's two best offensive wingers then 16 goals and 34 assists isn't an accomplishment we should all celebrate, it's the expectation.

Koivu spent 10 years (not 1 year) matching and often surpassing that production while playing with whatever garbage wingers Gainey would cook up for him. 60 points with Brian Savage and Matt D'Agostini, not 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty.

Plekanec did much better when he had similarly good wingers. 70 points with Andrei Kostitsyn and Kovalev/Cammalleri.

Both Koivu and Plekanec achieved what they did on offense while also providing shutdown production on defense.

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08-16-2012, 02:18 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Switch Gio and Bourque and you have there 2 very potent first lines.. Bourque will have to earn his ice time on the third line, personally I expect him to watch alot of games from the pressbox.. Unfortunately, Eller should have a defensively minded first role this year..
I think if someone can get Bourque going it's a pure playmaker like DD. I don't think he'll make bourque a stud but Bourque has played with Plek and Eller and had no success. Eller gets a legit scoring winger on his line as well.

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08-16-2012, 02:20 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If a player is given disproportionate offensive zone starts, power play time, and the team's two best offensive wingers then 16 goals and 34 assists isn't an accomplishment we should all celebrate, it's the expectation.

Koivu spent 10 years (not 1 year) matching and often surpassing that production while playing with whatever garbage wingers Gainey would cook up for him.

Plekanec did much better when he had similarly good wingers.

Both Koivu and Plekanec achieved what they did on offense while also providing shutdown production.
44 assists. 20th rank in points by a center.

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08-16-2012, 02:21 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
44 assists. 20th rank in points by a center.
Completely irrelevant to my overall point, see:

If a player is given disproportionate offensive zone starts, power play time, and the team's two best offensive wingers then 16 goals and 44 assists isn't an accomplishment we should all celebrate, it's the expectation.

Koivu spent 10 years (not 1 year) matching and often surpassing that production while playing with whatever garbage wingers Gainey would cook up for him. 60 points with Brian Savage and Matt D'Agostini, not 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty.

Plekanec did much better when he had similarly good wingers. 70 points with Andrei Kostitsyn and Kovalev/Cammalleri.

Both Koivu and Plekanec achieved what they did on offense while also providing shutdown production on defense.

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08-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Completely irrelevant to my overall point, see:

If a player is given disproportionate offensive zone starts, power play time, and the team's two best offensive wingers then 16 goals and 44 assists isn't an accomplishment we should all celebrate, it's the expectation.

Koivu spent 10 years (not 1 year) matching and often surpassing that production while playing with whatever garbage wingers Gainey would cook up for him. 60 points with Brian Savage and Matt D'Agostini, not 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty.

Plekanec did much better when he had similarly good wingers. 70 points with Andrei Kostitsyn and Kovalev/Cammalleri.

Both Koivu and Plekanec achieved what they did on offense while also providing shutdown production on defense.
How can the expectation for a guy you feel isn't worth keeping to that he must finish top 20 in centers?

Besides, one would argue camalleri was our best offensive weapon, not maxpac or cole going into the year. One would argue gionta and cole have had comparable production over the length of their careers.

If DD is such a misplaced player in that role, then why did ALL 3 have career years? I understand if you say Cole and Max bring more to the table, absolutely. I just don't understand the logic of saying DD should be shipped out or whatever as he's not worth keeping. So two guys, 1 in his first full NHL season and the other on likely his last contract make career years playing with a guy not worth keeping? I mean, has cole never played with anyone good before? He played with Staal and made less points. I don't understand the logic, either the entire line played over their heads and none of them are that good or DD may actually be a relatively good offensive player.

Now, offensive vs two-way. Sure, DD is no Plekanec, he's no bergeron or kesler but the guy is still an asset. He gets paid 850k per year. Now, capspace means nothing if you don't use it but...DD+Cole made 5.35 last year. Add in maxpac and they made 7 mil per year. We can go in circles about DD and the production of the team all we want but our entire first line made 7 mil last year and will do so again this year. If we're arguing about Plekanec's wingers, blame management, not DD. DD does not NEED to be moved. He's affordable and productive. The canadiens may have a duo max-DD(AHL together and they have chemistry) that may end up one of the best bargain duos in the league. Now, does it mean max and cole can't find a better center? For sure they can but we have an asset here that can compliment these two skilled wingers and allow our other dangerous players like Plekanec to be on other lines. Now, plekanec doesn't have as good of wingers as DD, sure, but gionta produces as much as cole. Bourque had good years, etc... Does it mean they are as good now? Maybe not. STILL, this isn't a reason to get rid of DD, it never will be. Management needs to use that bargain and use the additional cap to find a winger(s) to make OTHER dangerous lines.

Some will argue DD got soft minutes, easy minutes. He played with cole and max the majority of the time, did they get soft minutes too? Are they only benefiting because of eller's and plekanec's defensive responsibilities? Yes, but few would admit it. It goes both ways. This whole discussion is based on a fallacy as if DD is stopping the team from being competitive or something. He's adding to the success of the team, habs just don't have an established 2nd or 3rd line. We had AK, we had cammalleri and so on and we let them go. Now we have bourque and people have no confidence in him...fine but this does not make DD expendable, it makes the need for a legit top 6 winger a priority, that's all.

Again, we can go in circles all you or the others want but no one can tell me why DD shouldn't be on the team. He helped a line, maybe very little, maybe a lot, but we had a dangerous line and if he's a borderline NHLer(not saying u said that) and has so much chemistry that he passes as a top 6 center, even better no? What's the debate? Desharnais is not getzlaf, he's not giroux or malkin. Yeah, we all know. Some overrate him and that's wrong but he's an asset to this team. If they choose to mix the lines he'll still be an asset. If he's on 3rd line he's still an asset, even on 4th. Because he has vision for a PP, he has the ability to step into a top 6 center role in a pinch.

I want the guy to stay. I'm not prepared to give hm a 6 year extension but I sure as hell would give him a 2-3 year deal at the right price.

BTW, plekanec had a 'solid' 39 points after his 69 point year with the AKs. He started the year with both of them and they had to mix the lines as it wasn't getting done. So not sure what you're proving.


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08-16-2012, 02:44 PM
  #119
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Amen.

But time will tell.

Sooooon I hope.

****in CBA.

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08-16-2012, 02:52 PM
  #120
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When Koivu was getting 60 points a year playing with Oleg Petrov, Chris Higgins, and Matt D'Agostini, fans complained that he wasn't a 1st line center, and that we needed more "size down the middle". Now that Desharnais gets 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty, we all celebrate.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
How can the expectation for a guy you feel isn't worth keeping to that he must finish top 20 in centers?
It's conceivable Desharnais was top-20 in the NHL for winger quality, power play time, and offensive zone starts; should a combined "offensive opportunity" metric be developed.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
If DD is such a misplaced player in that role, then why did ALL 3 have career years?
They all had disproportionate offensive zone starts and power play time.

Finally, you have absolutely no idea if that was Pacioretty's career year. It's his first full season.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
BTW, plekanec had a 'solid' 39 points after his 69 point year with the AKs. He started the year with both of them and they had to mix the lines as it wasn't getting done. So not sure what you're proving.
It was the worst year of Plekanec's career.

Every player has one year in their career that is their worst. That's a mathematical identity.


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08-16-2012, 03:09 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's conceivable Desharnais was top-20 in the NHL for winger quality, power play time, and offensive zone starts; should a combined "offensive opportunity" metric be developed..
If he's productive given the opportunity, why have this discussion?


Quote:
They all had disproportionate offensive zone starts and power play time.

When Koivu was getting 60 points a year playing with Oleg Petrov, Chris Higgins, and Matt D'Agostini, fans complained that he wasn't a 1st line center, and that we needed more "size down the middle". Now that Desharnais gets 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty, we all celebrate. .
I'm a huge Koivu fan but he's not here now. Comparing a guy who we don't have to another doesn't change my opinion. You work with what you have.

Quote:
Finally, you have absolutely no idea if that was Pacioretty's career year. It's his first full season. .
First off I said I said he had a career year. I never said this will be his career year when he's done his career. It is his currently his career year, don't twist the words, it is what what it is.

Now, you admitted max had easy minutes as well yet you believe he'll make more when he gets...harder minutes?

What I particularly love is the fact you admit all 3 had easy minutes and I can assume based on that you'd admit it was a factor(if not major factor) in their career years. Now...we're basing these guys under easy minutes as 'best wingers on the team'. That's the fallacy here. 1 member of the line "is not as good as his production suggests" yet the other two "are as good as the production suggests". Maybe max and Cole are expendable too? I mean, they had similar point productions and all had easy minutes.


Quote:
It was the worst year of Plekanec's career.

Every player has one year in their career that is their worst. That's a mathematical identity.
Yes and plekanec has only 2 years with 60 points or more. Plekanec is the superior player but it does not change the fact DD is an asset to the team.



Now, for sake of discussion, I'm gonna go to NHL.com and look up some stats.

Here we go, road points. You know...where you don't get to match lines as you wish as you don't have 2nd change? Evidently, it will be harder minutes for ALL our players there no?

Desharnais ties Cole in points(DD has 1 less GP). Desharnais surpasses max with 2 points more in 2 games more(again, higher PPG on road for DD).

The leader in points on the road for forwards? Plekanec with a solid 30. Not surprised, we'd both agree plekanec does matchups and on the road he's less likely to do and will get better matchups and our first line would not.

Now, at home, under 2nd change max has a staggering 42 points in 41 games. That's 18 more than during his less protected minutes on the road. Desharnais rolls in with 35, as opposed to 25 on the road and so does Cole 36vs25. Plekanec in defensively responsibility has 22 pts at home, decreasing as he's allowed to do defensive matchups.

Essentially, it's normal to have more points at home than on the road if you're a top line or in general. Now...my argument is, when in harder minutes where you can be matched up against Cole, Max and DD still had similar production. DD was 2nd in PPG for forwards on the road(only slightly, i'll say it's a 3 way tie at #2).

Again, DD fits in just fine. His lack of being a true stud does not change the fact he can produce and be an asset. DD is not perfect, he's not a selke candidate and he's not koivu. I know, you know, but it doesn't make him a bad player either, be objective.

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08-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If a player is given disproportionate offensive zone starts, power play time, and the team's two best offensive wingers then 16 goals and 34 assists isn't an accomplishment we should all celebrate, it's the expectation.

Koivu spent 10 years (not 1 year) matching and often surpassing that production while playing with whatever garbage wingers Gainey would cook up for him. 60 points with Brian Savage and Matt D'Agostini, not 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty.

Plekanec did much better when he had similarly good wingers. 70 points with Andrei Kostitsyn and Kovalev/Cammalleri.

Both Koivu and Plekanec achieved what they did on offense while also providing shutdown production on defense.
You talk about overrating but you are underrating dd. I consider myself anglophone even though i'm bilingual. I don't know if it is a french hating thing but give credit where it is do. The guy is an amazing hockey player.

Granted he is small and some here have a size obsession but that doesnt stop the fact that everywhere he has been produced points. There is no point in trading him now when his value is not high.

Trading him would be a huge mistake and we would all start whining when he will be producing else where.

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08-16-2012, 03:44 PM
  #123
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I think if someone can get Bourque going it's a pure playmaker like DD.
I rather see a receipe for desaster, a line that will be exposed defensively and not productive enough offensively.. Then, some fans will start to realize what Plekanec had to deal with last year and start realizing Desharnais needs to be surrounded better to be useful to the team..

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08-16-2012, 03:45 PM
  #124
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If he's productive given the opportunity, why have this discussion?
A player who only manages 16 goals and 60 points given the spectacular assets of great linemates, great zone starts and 3 minutes a game of PP time is not a player we should build around. I expect Plekanec would have had 65-75 points given those advantages.

Given those assets, a stanley cup contender would expect their 1st line center to produce 80+ points. We all hope that one day Galchenyuk will be able to produce 80-100 points with those kinds of advantages. I don't think Desharnais ever will.

He doesn't have the high-end offensive potential of Galchenyuk, the offensive ability of Plekanec or the defensive abilities of either Plekanec or Eller. There's no room for Desharnais long-term.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
First off I said I said he had a career year. I never said this will be his career year when he's done his career. It is his currently his career year, don't twist the words, it is what what it is.
OK, so you're crediting Desharnais for Pacioretty having his best season in his first full season.

I would guess that the vast majority of 22 year-olds have their "career seasons" in your definition of "career season".


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
What I particularly love is the fact you admit all 3 had easy minutes and I can assume based on that you'd admit it was a factor(if not major factor) in their career years. Now...we're basing these guys under easy minutes as 'best wingers on the team'.
Cole had his best season with Desharnais. Here are two possibilities:

1) David Desharnais is better than Eric Staal.
2) Cole had easier ice time this year.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????????????


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
That's the fallacy here. 1 member of the line "is not as good as his production suggests" yet the other two "are as good as the production suggests". Maybe max and Cole are expendable too? I mean, they had similar point productions and all had easy minutes.
We have Plekanec and Eller down the middle. Next year we might have Galchenyuk. There is no such depth on wing. Actually, we're extremely weak on wing. I think we should keep the few good wingers we do have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Now, for sake of discussion, I'm gonna go to NHL.com and look up some stats.

Here we go, road points. You know...where you don't get to match lines as you wish as you don't have 2nd change? Evidently, it will be harder minutes for ALL our players there no?

Desharnais ties Cole in points(DD has 1 less GP). Desharnais surpasses max with 2 points more in 2 games more(again, higher PPG on road for DD).

The leader in points on the road for forwards? Plekanec with a solid 30. Not surprised, we'd both agree plekanec does matchups and on the road he's less likely to do and will get better matchups and our first line would not.

Now, at home, under 2nd change max has a staggering 42 points in 41 games. That's 18 more than during his less protected minutes on the road. Desharnais rolls in with 35, as opposed to 25 on the road and so does Cole 36vs25. Plekanec in defensively responsibility has 22 pts at home, decreasing as he's allowed to do defensive matchups.

Essentially, it's normal to have more points at home than on the road if you're a top line or in general. Now...my argument is, when in harder minutes where you can be matched up against Cole, Max and DD still had similar production. DD was 2nd in PPG for forwards on the road(only slightly, i'll say it's a 3 way tie at #2).

Again, DD fits in just fine. His lack of being a true stud does not change the fact he can produce and be an asset. DD is not perfect, he's not a selke candidate and he's not koivu. I know, you know, but it doesn't make him a bad player either, be objective.
You can't match lines on the road but you can still pick who gets offensive zone starts, who gets PP time, and who gets which linemates.

We saw Plekanec play shutdown with Staubitz and White down the stretch. That is the flip side of of Desharnais playing offense with Cole and Pacioretty. One step forward, one step back.

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08-16-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ubercron9000 View Post
You talk about overrating but you are underrating dd. I consider myself anglophone even though i'm bilingual. I don't know if it is a french hating thing but give credit where it is do. The guy is an amazing hockey player.
I'm francophone ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubercron9000 View Post
Trading him would be a huge mistake and we would all start whining when he will be producing else where.
Not if we trade him for good value.

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