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Roster Thoughts and Offseason Speculation for the 2012-2013 Season III

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Old
08-16-2012, 05:02 AM
  #26
Telos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I'm thinking when Brown is up for a new contract he's going to get $5 to $5.5M per year.
I've been thinking the very same thing for few months now. I think Brown is going to be in the 5's when he re-signs. Hope for another discount and in the 4's, but I think $5.75 or around there is fair value.

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Old
08-16-2012, 05:39 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
I've been thinking the very same thing for few months now. I think Brown is going to be in the 5's when he re-signs. Hope for another discount and in the 4's, but I think $5.75 or around there is fair value.
Part of me expects Brown to take a discount because of the person he is, the other part of me feels he deserves a big contract for taking the first discount/sticking with the team for so long. Looking at how much money Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Doughty and Quick will be making in the next 4-10 years makes it hard to justify anything under that $5.75 you mentioned. Of course it also shouldn't be too hard to give him a long term contract to drive the cap number down.

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08-16-2012, 06:43 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcard View Post
Part of me expects Brown to take a discount because of the person he is, the other part of me feels he deserves a big contract for taking the first discount/sticking with the team for so long. Looking at how much money Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Doughty and Quick will be making in the next 4-10 years makes it hard to justify anything under that $5.75 you mentioned. Of course it also shouldn't be too hard to give him a long term contract to drive the cap number down.
3.1M for a guy whose career high in goals is 17 isn't really a discount.

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08-16-2012, 11:04 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I'm thinking when Brown is up for a new contract he's going to get $5 to $5.5M per year.
I don't think anyone will be arguing that he's earned it.

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08-16-2012, 11:10 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
3.1M for a guy whose career high in goals is 17 isn't really a discount.
Who had a career high in goals of 17? Not Brown's. His last five years are 33, 24, 24, 28, and 22. While being in the top-5 in hits for the whole NHL. In this era of 5M for third liners Brown could very well be the most underpaid player in the NHL.

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08-16-2012, 11:24 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadite View Post
Who had a career high in goals of 17? Not Brown's. His last five years are 33, 24, 24, 28, and 22. While being in the top-5 in hits for the whole NHL. In this era of 5M for third liners Brown could very well be the most underpaid player in the NHL.
he's talking about when he signed it.

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08-16-2012, 12:19 PM
  #32
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Simmonds would be a 2.5 mill a year player on the Kings, the same Kings who just gave Penner and Stoll 3+ mill?

As KingLB said, Simmonds is a lot more than just offense, he brings a ton to the table, and he is only going to get better.

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08-16-2012, 12:46 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Simmonds would be a 2.5 mill a year player on the Kings, the same Kings who just gave Penner and Stoll 3+ mill?

As KingLB said, Simmonds is a lot more than just offense, he brings a ton to the table, and he is only going to get better.
I agree with Herbiveroud Rex.

Simmonds is only going to get better. When he fills out more is going to be a physical force

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08-16-2012, 12:54 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I think if Simmonds got PP time in LA, then he probably would have scored 20 goals. Meaning 4M per season wouldn't be too far out of reach.

When I look at the recent signings of guys like Hemsky and Ruttu, Simmonds at 4M looks reasonable in comparison.
Call me crazy but I thought those signings were laughable also.


Guess that's just the way it is now. Not every GM is concerned about reasonable contracts.

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08-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #35
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After what Brandon Prust got, I am not surprised by this. Simmonds showed he can be dominant in the East...he destroyed Dorsett and Brewer in fights and was a monster on the power play.

The amount of guys in the league who can score, play power play, skate and fight...and not only that but fight well are limited. Lucic, Simmonds, and Clowe. Chris Stewart can't score consistently, Hartnell can't dominate in fights like the first three guys, Nathan Horton can't stay healthy, Iginla is on the downside and rarely fights....

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Old
08-16-2012, 01:43 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
he's talking about when he signed it.
Ehe. I don't remember when he signed the extension. I thought it was the following career stats season. Either way 3.1M at the time for a 23 year old with 46 pts wasn't out of the norm.

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08-16-2012, 02:05 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
After what Brandon Prust got, I am not surprised by this. Simmonds showed he can be dominant in the East...he destroyed Dorsett and Brewer in fights and was a monster on the power play.

The amount of guys in the league who can score, play power play, skate and fight...and not only that but fight well are limited. Lucic, Simmonds, and Clowe. Chris Stewart can't score consistently, Hartnell can't dominate in fights like the first three guys, Nathan Horton can't stay healthy, Iginla is on the downside and rarely fights....
This

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Old
08-16-2012, 02:17 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
After what Brandon Prust got, I am not surprised by this. Simmonds showed he can be dominant in the East...he destroyed Dorsett and Brewer in fights and was a monster on the power play.

The amount of guys in the league who can score, play power play, skate and fight...and not only that but fight well are limited. Lucic, Simmonds, and Clowe. Chris Stewart can't score consistently, Hartnell can't dominate in fights like the first three guys, Nathan Horton can't stay healthy, Iginla is on the downside and rarely fights....
Hatnell can throw a bit too. There are a couple of others but not many.

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08-16-2012, 04:02 PM
  #39
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I just think Homer should have waited one more season to see if Simmonds kept up this kind of play. To me it's a bit risky to give him that much money on his first extension after one good season.

And his +/- numbers still bother the **** out of me.


Some Flyers fan PMed me and told me I sounded bitter, and then made cracks about us being "Flyers West"

L.A. has the cup son, move along.

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08-16-2012, 04:23 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I just think Homer should have waited one more season to see if Simmonds kept up this kind of play. To me it's a bit risky to give him that much money on his first extension after one good season.

And his +/- numbers still bother the **** out of me.


Some Flyers fan PMed me and told me I sounded bitter, and then made cracks about us being "Flyers West"

L.A. has the cup son, move along.
It would be a compliment to them to call them Kings East.

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Old
08-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #41
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Is it me, or are Flyers forwards like Texas Tech QBs, you can plug-in any competent player with some level of skill and get 25 goals. TTU QBs are a virtual lock for 4000 yards passing, thats the reference.


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08-16-2012, 04:58 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
You realize he now makes more than Jarret Stoll, Alexandre Burrows, Ryane Clowe, Dave Bolland, Chris Kunitz, Val Filpulla, Matt Duchene, Milan Hejduk, Stephen Weiss, Tomas Kopecky, Joe Pavelski (Same), David Perron, Patric Hornqvist and Paul Gaustad? Not to mention tons of others.
For what Simmonds brings, and his room for growth.... The only guys I take over Simmonds on this list are Pavelski, Weiss and Duchene assuming he re-finds his game.

Including guys like Kopecky, Stoll, Gaustad and Hejduk (great career, but come on) is insulting. No GM in there right mind would trade Simmonds for any two of these guys.

Simmonds turns 24 next week, he has tons of room for improvement, he has a unique skillset, he hits, he skates well, he is serviceable defensively, he fights and he showed this year he could be a real force on the PP. To bad we never got to find that out in LA because TM insisted on sending out guys like Smyth, Stoll and Handzus and never gave Wayne any PP time.

Actually, after the silly money thrown around this summer to marginal players, the contracts signed by Simmonds and Pacioretty seem like bargains.

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08-16-2012, 05:37 PM
  #43
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Is it me, or are Flyers forwards like Texas Tech QBs, you can plug-in any competent player with some level of skill and get 25 goals.
That's because Lavvy's Pond hockey system is all offense no defense and why the give up 3 or more goals per game from Oct on. It's also the reason why they won't get past the 2nd round and it's very frustrating to watch. Their D and most of their forwards (not named Courtier, Read and Wellwood) are defensively irresponsible and get manhandled in their own zone. After watching his forwards get beaten all year it's no wonder Homer brought in TM to coach the PHantoms. At least now when they bring up a prospect, they'll be better at protecting their zone.

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08-16-2012, 05:41 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I just think Homer should have waited one more season to see if Simmonds kept up this kind of play. To me it's a bit risky to give him that much money on his first extension after one good season.

And his +/- numbers still bother the **** out of me.

Some Flyers fan PMed me and told me I sounded bitter, and then made cracks about us being "Flyers West"

L.A. has the cup son, move along.
And apparently his defense has gotten even worse than his last year here. He showed a lot of promise as a responsible 2-way forward early with the Kings. Then when he was tried on scoring lines, it's like he completely forgot that's what got him in the NHL to begin with. Simmonds looks like a good crash bang 2nd-liner, though. At least on that team.

I'd still do that trade 100x over. Waiting on Brayden Schenn to become our 2nd-line center (remember when some thought he could be our first line center?), would've thrown off the timing for everything. Right now, he's shown some flashes of playing like a young Mike Richards, but he's more known for getting his ass knocked out in fights than doing anything notable on offense or defense. Both he and Wayne were big minus players for Philly in the playoffs.

The bitter comment is always amusing. You just experienced a feeling that the board member who PM'd you has likely never felt in his life. Bitter? Life is SWEET! You think Dallas is bitter for having won that Stanley Cup instead of keeping Iginla? And that's a loose comparison at best because neither Simmonds or Schenn are HOF caliber talents. Philadelphia is a breeding ground for forwards. Defensemen, not so much. They're not winning the Cup until they achieve that balance.

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Old
08-16-2012, 06:30 PM
  #45
Telos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
3.1M for a guy whose career high in goals is 17 isn't really a discount.
It is when you consider the length and the timeframe, given that that was the time when Penner and Vanek received their offer sheets, and the Kings didn't want to have that problem with Brown. Six years at $3.1 was a very reasonable number, and obviously turned into a flawless steal after that year.

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08-16-2012, 06:38 PM
  #46
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You guys think Simmonds matches or surpasses the numbers he produced this year? Claude Giroux contributed to a majority of his points, and he got to play cleanup on the Flyers' PP.

As for those revisiting the trade, look at it this way. If the Kings don't trade for Mike Richards, then it's also unlikely they get Jeff Carter.

If you told me in 2010 that the Kings would add Mike Richards and Jeff Carter and only had to give up Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Jack Johnson, a 1st and a 2nd round pick, I'd call you crazy. Adding those two players is like acquiring Mike Ricci and Tony Amonte within a year, which would be classified as terrific acquisitions during the late 90s era of hockey.

I still like Simmonds though and hope that Kyle Clifford can become a similar style player who can defend his teammates, crash the net and score those gritty goals. What I really love about Simmonds' game is his play along the boards. He's relentless in his puck pursuit and retrieval and 9 out of 10 times, he's coming out with the puck in those board battles. That's what Clifford needs to become.

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08-16-2012, 06:48 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
You guys think Simmonds matches or surpasses the numbers he produced this year? Claude Giroux contributed to a majority of his points, and he got to play cleanup on the Flyers' PP.

As for those revisiting the trade, look at it this way. If the Kings don't trade for Mike Richards, then it's also unlikely they get Jeff Carter.

If you told me in 2010 that the Kings would add Mike Richards and Jeff Carter and only had to give up Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Jack Johnson, a 1st and a 2nd round pick, I'd call you crazy. Adding those two players is like acquiring Mike Ricci and Tony Amonte within a year, which would be classified as terrific acquisitions during the late 90s era of hockey.

I still like Simmonds though and hope that Kyle Clifford can become a similar style player who can defend his teammates, crash the net and score those gritty goals. What I really love about Simmonds' game is his play along the boards. He's relentless in his puck pursuit and retrieval and 9 out of 10 times, he's coming out with the puck in those board battles. That's what Clifford needs to become.
His stats might be inflated from playing with the Flyers, but they're no fluke.

Remember Simmonds was one of the Kings better scorers at even strength. Terry never made an effort to develop his offense game. I thought he clearly deserved PP time, but didn't get it.

It reminds me of Brown with Andy Murray versus Brown with Crawford. One coach tried to develop his offensive game, and the other didn't.

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08-16-2012, 07:00 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telos View Post
It is when you consider the length and the timeframe, given that that was the time when Penner and Vanek received their offer sheets, and the Kings didn't want to have that problem with Brown. Six years at $3.1 was a very reasonable number, and obviously turned into a flawless steal after that year.
Brown hadn't accomplished anything yet.

DL was taking a risk that Brown would pan out as a player. He was right, and now the contract is a steal. Initially though, the contract was probably a slight overpayment.

Simmond's 4M cap hit takes up 5.7% of the current cap (70.2M).
Brown's 3.1M at the time took up 6.2% of the Cap (50.3M).

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Old
08-16-2012, 07:28 PM
  #49
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You guys think Simmonds matches or surpasses the numbers he produced this year? Claude Giroux contributed to a majority of his points, and he got to play cleanup on the Flyers' PP.
Surpasses? I'd say no, he got a lot of points on the PP and a lot of what made the PP effective most of the year was Jagr, both his agility and ability to move into the zone and within the zone. Jagr and Giroux had 'it' and played off each other well and Simmonds benefitted from that. I think that PP will suffer/struggle for a bit until they find who can replace what Jagr brought on the PP. They also lost Carle and Mez, who played the point on the PP. MEz esp. was good there, had a great shot. Nobody yet to replace that.
Also, it depends on how Lavvy uses Simmonds. Homer said post season, when asked aobut the rookies, that he wanted 'Sean' to get more minutes 5 on 5 and PP time. I hope he meant that because Courtier's game grew by leaps and bounds all year, he's one terrific 6 foot plus bundle of two way talent. Fearless and confident in all 3 zones and smart. Two more years and 25 lbs or so and he and Giroux will be a solid corp at top 6 center.
With the injuries and mismanagement of the D corps, and losing offense as well, I think they'll struggle. Also, teams within the conference got better and that will affect them. They only beat out the Devils by 1 point in the division to stay in 3rd.

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Old
08-16-2012, 07:33 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeshamrock View Post
That's because Lavvy's Pond hockey system is all offense no defense and why the give up 3 or more goals per game from Oct on. It's also the reason why they won't get past the 2nd round and it's very frustrating to watch. Their D and most of their forwards (not named Courtier, Read and Wellwood) are defensively irresponsible and get manhandled in their own zone. After watching his forwards get beaten all year it's no wonder Homer brought in TM to coach the PHantoms. At least now when they bring up a prospect, they'll be better at protecting their zone.
EXACTLY.

I watched Ville Leino go from a 53 point player with 19 goals on the Flyers playing the 3rd line...to a 2nd line forward on a defense first system of Lindy Ruff and BOOM...the guy has 25 points, and only seven goals.

Of course because of his year in Philly his contract number inflates WAY above his actual talent level.

Carter and Richards are FURTHER examples of this. Get them out of Philly on a less offensive team with a more defensive focus and their numbers dip. Their effectiveness in all-around situations improves but their offense dips.

It's not science, or bitterness like that stupid Flyers fan implied. It's the truth. Simmonds is not a player worth 4 mil a year imo. he's a max 3 mil RIGHT NOW to me. His numbers imply a better talent level and performance than reality.


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