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David Desharnais next contract

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Old
08-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #126
LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
A player who only manages 16 goals and 60 points given the spectacular assets of great linemates, great zone starts and 3 minutes a game of PP time is not a player we should build around. I expect Plekanec would have had 65-75 points given those advantages.

Given those assets, a stanley cup contender would expect their 1st line center to produce 80+ points. We all hope that one day Galchenyuk will be able to produce 80-100 points with those kinds of advantages. I don't think Desharnais ever will.

He doesn't have the high-end offensive potential of Galchenyuk, the offensive ability of Plekanec or the defensive abilities of either Plekanec or Eller. There's no room for Desharnais long-term.
What says Cole and max are 'great'. You prove my point. If they had easy minutes, same as DD, why are they great and DD not good? Doesn't even make sense. I don't disagree that they're good but what's the logic here?

You admit Cole and Max had easier minutes but also say they are 'great'. Why? DD isn't as good as his points suggest because he gets easy minutes but Cole and Max are as good as they look?

You completely ignored this, until you address that, you're circling around like I expected you to.

Also, Plekanec will get 65-75 points but DD getting 60 in his first full year. Completely unworthy of the spot for 5 points?!? Seriously?


Quote:
OK, so you're crediting Desharnais for Pacioretty having his best season in his first full season.

I would guess that the vast majority of 22 year-olds have their "career seasons" in your definition of "career season".
To be honest, yes, my version of a career year for max isn't very useful. I did not credit DD for it though. I did not credit DD for it. I said he may have helped a little or a lot, but he complimented the line, I never said he was the key piece of it.

Quote:
Cole had his best season with Desharnais. Here are two possibilities:

1) David Desharnais is better than Eric Staal.
2) Cole had easier ice time this year.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????????????
#2. So wait, aren't great players who get easy minutes supposed to get 65-75 points a year?

Maybe all 3 benefitted? MAYBE they aren't the best wingers? Maybe gionta under easy minutes hits 35 goals too? Maybe Bourque under easy minutes his 30? So quality of wingers is no longer relevant.


Quote:
We have Plekanec and Eller down the middle. Next year we might have Galchenyuk. There is no such depth on wing. Actually, we're extremely weak on wing. I think we should keep the few good wingers we do have.
By the time Galchenyuk's a #1(I'll give it say...2 years? 1 year of Juniors + 1 year as an NHL rookie) Plekanec will be nearly 32 and going downhill. By that time, we'll make a decision. There's no reason to make one NOW.


Quote:
You can't match lines on the road but you can still pick who gets offensive zone starts, who gets PP time, and who gets which linemates.

We saw Plekanec play shutdown with Staubitz and White down the stretch. That is the flip side of of Desharnais playing offense with Cole and Pacioretty. One step forward, one step back.
Okay so if we played Plekanec with those two and DD with the others, would we be better off? The answer is no. So I don't see your point.

I agree Plekanec gets hard minutes and poor linemates but this has NOTHING to do with DD. Zero, nada. A team is supposed to have 4 top 6 wingers on average. Habs have 3 and bourque. Gionta was injured, not DD's fault either.

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08-16-2012, 04:15 PM
  #127
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I think there's a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that Desharnais is garbage and that we should trade him to be free of his limitations.

I think that going forward, we won't have each of Desharnais, Plekanec, Eller, and Galchenyuk on the team. I am guessing that the maximal trade value could be obtained at this year's deadline, though that could be wrong. It may be that we should wait until next summer. I am also assuming that since Desharnais is a decent player, he might fetch good value.

Our team is strong at center, weak on the wings, weak on defense, and with an average farm system. It makes sense to trade some of our center depth to build strength in those other areas.

Plekanec is the better player. I'd rather keep Plekanec. However, if he attracts much better trade bait, then I trade Plekanec and keep Desharnais.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
What says Cole and max are 'great'. You prove my point. If they had easy minutes, same as DD, why are they great and DD not good? Doesn't even make sense. I don't disagree that they're good but what's the logic here?

You admit Cole and Max had easier minutes but also say they are 'great'. Why? DD isn't as good as his points suggest because he gets easy minutes but Cole and Max are as good as they look?
I expect that Cole and Pacioretty would be 1st line forwards on most of the teams in the league, but I don't see them being 30-30 players elsewhere without these privileged minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Also, Plekanec will get 65-75 points but DD getting 60 in his first full year. Completely unworthy of the spot for 5 points?!? Seriously?
1) 5-15 points is huge.
2) Plekanec can also contribute 2-4 minutes a game of some of the best penalty killing abilities in the league... also huge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
By the time Galchenyuk's a #1(I'll give it say...2 years? 1 year of Juniors + 1 year as an NHL rookie) Plekanec will be nearly 32 and going downhill. By that time, we'll make a decision. There's no reason to make one NOW.
I never said the decision should be made now.

It should be made before Galchenyuk joins the team. I don't want to see him on the 4th line and I don't want to hear garbage about him needing to earn a roster spot. That means a trade at either the deadline or next summer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I agree Plekanec gets hard minutes and poor linemates but this has NOTHING to do with DD. Zero, nada. A team is supposed to have 4 top 6 wingers on average. Habs have 3 and bourque. Gionta was injured, not DD's fault either.
If Desharnais gets to take faceoffs in the offensive zone it means that other centers will take faceoffs in the defensive zone. It has everything to do with it.

If Desharnais plays 3 minutes a game on the PP it means other centers won't be playing 3 minutes a game on the PP. It has everything to do with it.

If Desharnais plays with Cole and Pacioretty it means that other centers will play with Ryan White, Brandon Prust, or Rene Bourque. It has everything to do with it.

Finally, Gionta being injured is irrelevant, because at any given time a typical Habs team will be missing a top-6 winger.

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Old
08-16-2012, 05:00 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Completely irrelevant to my overall point, see:

If a player is given disproportionate offensive zone starts, power play time, and the team's two best offensive wingers then 16 goals and 44 assists isn't an accomplishment we should all celebrate, it's the expectation.

Koivu spent 10 years (not 1 year) matching and often surpassing that production while playing with whatever garbage wingers Gainey would cook up for him. 60 points with Brian Savage and Matt D'Agostini, not 60 points with Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty.

Plekanec did much better when he had similarly good wingers. 70 points with Andrei Kostitsyn and Kovalev/Cammalleri.

Both Koivu and Plekanec achieved what they did on offense while also providing shutdown production on defense.
You know that the offensive zone starts that everyone goes wild about is like 1-2 faceoffs per game average. It's really not that big of a deal. So he starts 2 extra times in the offensive zone - he should, he was producing! Actually, just doing the stats now, it's less than one faceoff per game at ES. Desharnais gets 4.28 faceoffs per game at ES in the offensive zone, while Plekanec gets 3.80. So that's just under 1/2 a faceoff less per game.

Example; every two games, Desharnais takes 9 offensive zone ES faceoffs, Plekanec takes 8.

Big ****ing whoop. That argument is so overused when it means very little.

Secondly, Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty weren't SUPPOSED to be our two best wingers last season. They were supposed to be #3 and #4. Gionta and Cammalleri (who started with Plekanec) were supposed to be the best two wingers on the team.

Funny how in the few games Desharnais played with Cammalleri, he started to produce again (no idea why Cammalleri was removed from his line after this -- especially with the praise that Cammy had for DD). Leblanc also got a few points on this line.

Using D'Agostini is ridiculous. When he came up, he was on fire. He stopped playing with Koivu pretty quickly after he started slumping.

Plekanec also got plenty of PP time. Desharnais had just 16-minutes more than him this year. Plekanec had less PP time last year and produced more than he did this year with more time. Also, DD SHOULD start the PPs. Why? He wins the faceoff. Last year, he posted a 67% faceoff on the PP, while Plekanec had a 49%. That tells me DD deserves the ice first.

DD is always going to be an underdog though and he feeds off that. Can't wait to hear the excuses after he puts up another career year.


Last edited by One Man Rock Band: 08-16-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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Old
08-16-2012, 05:28 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
You know that the offensive zone starts that everyone goes wild about is like 1-2 faceoffs per game average. It's really not that big of a deal. So he starts 2 extra times in the offensive zone - he should, he was producing! Actually, just doing the stats now, it's less than one faceoff per game at ES. Desharnais gets 4.28 faceoffs per game at ES in the offensive zone, while Plekanec gets 3.80. So that's just under 1/2 a faceoff less per game.

Example; every two games, Desharnais takes 9 offensive zone ES faceoffs, Plekanec takes 8.
13% is a lot.

13% is the difference between 60 points and 69 points, between 30 goals and 34 goals. It's a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Secondly, Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty weren't SUPPOSED to be our two best wingers last season. They were supposed to be #3 and #4. Gionta and Cammalleri (who started with Plekanec) were supposed to be the best two wingers on the team.
Were there really people who thought Gionta would produce more than Cole and Pacioretty?

Who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
DD SHOULD start the PPs. Why? He wins the faceoff. Last year, he posted a 67% faceoff on the PP, while Plekanec had a 49%. That tells me DD deserves the ice first.
When has DD ever been a 67% faceoff player?

That would make him the best player in the league for faceoffs.

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Old
08-16-2012, 06:44 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
You know that the offensive zone starts that everyone goes wild about is like 1-2 faceoffs per game average. It's really not that big of a deal. So he starts 2 extra times in the offensive zone - he should, he was producing! Actually, just doing the stats now, it's less than one faceoff per game at ES. Desharnais gets 4.28 faceoffs per game at ES in the offensive zone, while Plekanec gets 3.80. So that's just under 1/2 a faceoff less per game.

Example; every two games, Desharnais takes 9 offensive zone ES faceoffs, Plekanec takes 8.

Big ****ing whoop. That argument is so overused when it means very little.

Secondly, Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty weren't SUPPOSED to be our two best wingers last season. They were supposed to be #3 and #4. Gionta and Cammalleri (who started with Plekanec) were supposed to be the best two wingers on the team.

Funny how in the few games Desharnais played with Cammalleri, he started to produce again (no idea why Cammalleri was removed from his line after this -- especially with the praise that Cammy had for DD). Leblanc also got a few points on this line.

Using D'Agostini is ridiculous. When he came up, he was on fire. He stopped playing with Koivu pretty quickly after he started slumping.

Plekanec also got plenty of PP time. Desharnais had just 16-minutes more than him this year. Plekanec had less PP time last year and produced more than he did this year with more time. Also, DD SHOULD start the PPs. Why? He wins the faceoff. Last year, he posted a 67% faceoff on the PP, while Plekanec had a 49%. That tells me DD deserves the ice first.

DD is always going to be an underdog though and he feeds off that. Can't wait to hear the excuses after he puts up another career year.
There is maybe only 12 or 15 FO to take per game for a Top-6 center, in itself, its significant, but not "decisive". However, there is much more behind those faceoffs than the simple action of being there to take them.

It means a lot when you have to start every shift in a good situation, because more often than not, they goes together.

Starting most of your shifts in the defensive zone and/or against the best players of the opponent with Rene Bourque alongside you is quite a challenge.

Desharnais was producing ? Well, he was used in a extremely favourable situation. With faceoffs, but also with the competition he had to face. Playing against players that were usually weaker than the ones faced by Plekanec and even Eller (vastly underrated. If Plekanec had to play with Bourque, think about that poor Eller...) probably had a lot to do with the fact that he can produce and help others to produce, too.

He did have a nice season, went even better than expected, but we shouldnt be blinded by those numbers which are vastly boosted by how we was used, and often at the expense of the overall balance of the team.

How much, thats the question, but thinking that he is or will be more important to a team than a player as complete and valuable as Plekanec is very naive at this point or its means that you are simply unable to step back and look at the big picture.

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Old
08-16-2012, 08:38 PM
  #131
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I love Desharnais, but like I said earlier, I have a bad feeling about him and think he'll be the odd man out when Gally and Eller step up to #1 and #2 centre roles. Where Plekanec will be by then is anyone's guess.

But I'm up for giving him a 1-2 year deal for a fair price (2.5-3M?) and then locking him up long term at (hopefully) a team friendly deal if he really breaks out or at least shows some consistency in that time.

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08-16-2012, 10:17 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Were there really people who thought Gionta would produce more than Cole and Pacioretty?

Who?
Let's not be revisionist. We expected a production of 25-25 for Cole, and something around 28-30 for Patch. Nobody expected them having 30+ seasons.

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08-16-2012, 10:42 PM
  #133
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When you can get a hold of a guy like Desharnais, who has faced adversity and showed that kind of determination, its great. Desharnais stepped up last year and claimed his first 60 pts season. I'd be more comfortable to ink Desharnais long term than most players ... I believe his head is straight and his determination level will make him a fun player to watch even if he ends up on a 2nd or 3rd line and posts a 45 pts year. Put 10m for 3 years + bonuses and I'm sure he\s going to wrestle his agent to the ground to ink it. I might be wrong, but he doesnt strike me as the type of guy who will sit on a contract like kaberle.

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08-17-2012, 01:29 AM
  #134
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Imo...

Desharnais will be traded in a year or two...I love how crafty he is and he is a joy to watch...but can his 5'6 frame take it during playoffs? Not fair to him since it's a little early to ask this but I still have to ask. Plekanec is getting a very fair salary and Desharnais will ask for similar money... Pleks is not injury prone and is consistent and is solid defensively and is disciplined (and also has good work ethic). As crafty as Desharnais is...we have a chance to get boigger/taller since a long long time...and not just taller/bigger but better. Salary Cap...we can't keep Desharnais (he will want
$3.5 - 4 mil/year or more, unless...we can keep everyone, then of course I'm all for keeping Desharnais...maybe Leblanc will be traded once his value goes up there but imo it will be a huge mistake since Leblanc could be a very solid one for our Habs.... I'd only trade Pleks if the other team overpays or else forget it...we underrate Pleks a lot imo).



Centers (for next 4-5 seasons):
Plekanec
Galchenyuk/Eller
Eller/Galchenyuk
Leblanc (winger/center...great for center depth in case of injuries)

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08-17-2012, 03:18 AM
  #135
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I dont know if DD can replicate last year. I have some questions about that. However, I suspect the progression of Lars Eller will have alot to do with whether DD will be offered a long term deal.

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08-17-2012, 04:30 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Let's not be revisionist. We expected a production of 25-25 for Cole, and something around 28-30 for Patch. Nobody expected them having 30+ seasons.
The goal scoring expectations for Cole were built around him getting almost all of his goals on even strength like he has for most of his career. Scoring 11 PP goals threw those expectations out of wack when he's typically getting less than 5 of them on a season.

Cole's even strength scoring last year was essentially the same as it has been in his recent seasons. You expect him to score 20+ goals per 80 games on even strength, he got 24 which is just a little higher than typical for him, he got 22 the year before.

Pacioretty's scoring was a wild card though. He was dominant in 2010-11, in fact his scoring totals from that year hardly did him justice.

Going into 2011-12 Cole and Pacioretty were the best candidates for even strength offense. Cammalleri was a mid-level scorer on evens whose real talent was on the power play. Gionta was a very strong even strength goal scorer and good even strength defensive forward who rarely got assists.

The other expectation was for the team to run balanced lines and play power versus power rather than focusing on getting one line to score.

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08-17-2012, 04:32 AM
  #137
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I wouldn't imagine signing DD is a top priority for management. He's locked in for a bargain rate and has several RFA years ahead of him.

If he can replicate last season's productivity, DD will be looking at a very nice payday for years to come. Should he put up significantly better numbers-say 70-75 points-then he'll command some serious pay. Given that his first professional contract was for $400/week, I think he'll find a way to get by on whatever his next deal is.

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08-17-2012, 10:37 AM
  #138
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I don't get why everyone is in such a hurry to move our C depth. We FINALLY have depth at C ... something we've been begging for years.
This whole thread is so fail. What the ****. Does no one remember when Habs had great centers?

And why would we extend DD anyway. Why should we? Why is this a topic? There is no need to do this.

We have NO depth at C. We are crap at C and I've been posting this for 2 years. Our centers do not score goals.

Check our goal total for centers last year, and then ask if this might be a reason we finished 27th overall, because it's a huge reason. When are people on this board going to realize this? And don't say his assists count. They don't.

Go talk to Jean Beliveau about centers scoring goals. It is the difference between cup contenders and not. At least one C on your team has to be a big goal scorer. Has to.

When Gretz needed to score goals, he did. When Sid needed to score goals, he did. All great centers can switch to goal scoring mode if required. Gally is that guy, I pray, finally. DD will never ever be that guy, and we have better and bigger centers that play other roles he cannot. I love DD, but he is useless for our team in building a cup winner.

We have **** all in goal scoring at C, and DD is exactly the wrong type of center for us the next 3 years. He's great, but he's ****ing awful in combo with Eller and Pleks, who can't score goals either. You going to trade one of them before DD? No ****ing way.

The last thing we need is yet another second line, small, really small C who can't score goals. DD is wonderful but he's just an awful top 2 C for the Habs medium term.

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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Lars Eller didn't had any chance to prove it either.

I remember Pacioretty....first two season stuck on the third line......
86 games, only had 6 goals and 19 passes for 25 points.

And we put him on the second (With Gomez nonetheless) and he put up 14 goals and 10 passes for 24 points in 37 games.

Eller is in the same position as Pacioretty was. Never got a chance so far.

And Eller got 16 goals last year.
16 goals playing 300 minutes less than Desharnais
Playing 200 PP minutes less than Desharnais
Playing with far worst winger than Desharnais
Playing a shutdown type of game.

Give him all that Desharnais had last years......and you have a center able to score 25-30 goals a year. Passes are great.....Goals are way better!!!

Just look at powerplay.

Eller scored 2 goals playing 52 minutes in PP
Desharnais scored 3 goals playing 266 minutes in PP

And don't start with the arguments that he is a playmaker not a scorer (just like Gomez and Koivu used to be) cause Pacioretty only scored 4 goals in 250 minutes of PP


What proof Desharnais had before getting his chance?? None, he got his chance because if this guy don't put up offensive, he's totally useless (can't play shutdown, can't play physical, can't play energy line.....so he must be on an offensive line or on the bench).
Agreed. Put DD in Eller's role last year. Switch it up. Let's see what happens then.

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Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Do you understand that in order to get those goals, they have to get the passes first ? Ever played hockey ?

Weak and flawed argumentation...
There are many, many unassisted goals scored in Hockey. Ever play it? And second assists should be eliminated from scoring also. We need goals from our centers, not average assist totals with very good wingers, and no goals.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Imagine the trade value double-D might have if he's as overrated among GMs as he is on this board.
This is such a love fest. Yeah I love DD, but what a joke this is. Guys here need to get some perspective on the centers that actually play on good teams. We finished 27th overall last year and posters here are celebrating DD? They should be ****ing pissed off at him, Pleks and Eller. I know I am. They can't score on a ****ing barn door. Christ.

DD had a full time role on this team that finished 27th. He is not a child. He wears the Habs jersey. He deserves to take **** like every player on that team. Every player. They all failed, and they don't need hugs from us. Raise your expectations for players on the the Habs. And injuries are no excuse. Step up and play, replace the injured player. If you can't, you're not good enough. Your team is not good enough.

Perhaps you did not know: Lafleur, Lemaire, Lapointe, Savard and many others used to hear it from fans when they lost. And they expected that. Not hugs. They wore the CH. Rookie or vet, did not matter. Times were different yes, and it's tougher now. But I see no reason to give any player on the Habs a break, and a pat on the back for finishing 27th.

If there is a better Center than DD that can help the Habs win, then I want that player, not DD. So should you.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
If he's productive given the opportunity, why have this discussion?

I'm a huge Koivu fan but he's not here now. Comparing a guy who we don't have to another doesn't change my opinion. You work with what you have.

Again, DD fits in just fine. H
No, you don't just 'work with you have'. NHL teams can act, they are not helpless. Get better players that fill needs you have, like goal scoring centers.

No. DD does not 'fit in just fine'. He's yet another small, non goal scoring center on a team that has had far too many of them the last 15 years. Wonder if that might have any relation to not winning cups. Hmm.

Look. In conclusion, you guys are gonna torch me. I know this. But I see a disproportionate amount of expectation for this player, especially given his size, and his very small playing sample. I see no realism at all regarding DD.

Further, I'm amazed that Habs fans think this highly of a center that is at best average, given this team's history of great centers.

Edit: I will eat every damn word of what I just wrote if DD adjusts and scores 30 goals next year. Because Pleks and Eller will not, and that is what we need. If he's as good as you say, that is what he has to do, he should step up and score goals. I am not interested in his assists. I want to see goals from him. And mark me: He will lose his job if he does not do this. See you in a year.


Last edited by bsl: 08-17-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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08-17-2012, 12:59 PM
  #139
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This whole thread is so fail. What the ****. Does no one remember when Habs had great centers? .
The Habs have not had a great scoring center since Beliveau and finding one is the hardest spot to fill in Hockey.

DD has had one full season as a hab and the truth is you would be hard pressed to find us another center who has played for the Canadians in the past 30 years who had a better first full season. DD is not our long term answer or savor at center but this notion that any center we have would have done better with the same players is just BS because if they could have done better they would have because DD was not suppose to be even on our team as he was signed to be a AHL player to be called up on occasion to help with injuries.
A 5.7 UN-drafted player just doesn't leapfrog to the top center spot by luck.
here our leading centers in goals
Jean Béliveau
507
Jacques Lemaire
366
Henri Richard
358
Howie Morenz
256
Peter Mahovlich
223
Guy Carbonneau
221
Elmer Lach
215
Ralph Backstrom
215
Pierre Mondou
194
Vincent Damphousse
184

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08-17-2012, 12:59 PM
  #140
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
This whole thread is so fail. What the ****. Does no one remember when Habs had great centers?

And why would we extend DD anyway. Why should we? Why is this a topic? There is no need to do this.

We have NO depth at C. We are crap at C and I've been posting this for 2 years. Our centers do not score goals.

Check our goal total for centers last year, and then ask if this might be a reason we finished 27th overall, because it's a huge reason. When are people on this board going to realize this? And don't say his assists count. They don't.

Go talk to Jean Beliveau about centers scoring goals. It is the difference between cup contenders and not. At least one C on your team has to be a big goal scorer. Has to.

When Gretz needed to score goals, he did. When Sid needed to score goals, he did. All great centers can switch to goal scoring mode if required. Gally is that guy, I pray, finally. DD will never ever be that guy, and we have better and bigger centers that play other roles he cannot. I love DD, but he is useless for our team in building a cup winner.

We have **** all in goal scoring at C, and DD is exactly the wrong type of center for us the next 3 years. He's great, but he's ****ing awful in combo with Eller and Pleks, who can't score goals either. You going to trade one of them before DD? No ****ing way.

The last thing we need is yet another second line, small, really small C who can't score goals. DD is wonderful but he's just an awful top 2 C for the Habs medium term.



Agreed. Put DD in Eller's role last year. Switch it up. Let's see what happens then.



There are many, many unassisted goals scored in Hockey. Ever play it? And second assists should be eliminated from scoring also. We need goals from our centers, not average assist totals with very good wingers, and no goals.



This is such a love fest. Yeah I love DD, but what a joke this is. Guys here need to get some perspective on the centers that actually play on good teams. We finished 27th overall last year and posters here are celebrating DD? They should be ****ing pissed off at him, Pleks and Eller. I know I am. They can't score on a ****ing barn door. Christ.

DD had a full time role on this team that finished 27th. He is not a child. He wears the Habs jersey. He deserves to take **** like every player on that team. Every player. They all failed, and they don't need hugs from us. Raise your expectations for players on the the Habs. And injuries are no excuse. Step up and play, replace the injured player. If you can't, you're not good enough. Your team is not good enough.

Perhaps you did not know: Lafleur, Lemaire, Lapointe, Savard and many others used to hear it from fans when they lost. And they expected that. Not hugs. They wore the CH. Rookie or vet, did not matter. Times were different yes, and it's tougher now. But I see no reason to give any player on the Habs a break, and a pat on the back for finishing 27th.

If there is a better Center than DD that can help the Habs win, then I want that player, not DD. So should you.



No, you don't just 'work with you have'. NHL teams can act, they are not helpless. Get better players that fill needs you have, like goal scoring centers.

No. DD does not 'fit in just fine'. He's yet another small, non goal scoring center on a team that has had far too many of them the last 15 years. Wonder if that might have any relation to not winning cups. Hmm.

Look. In conclusion, you guys are gonna torch me. I know this. But I see a disproportionate amount of expectation for this player, especially given his size, and his very small playing sample. I see no realism at all regarding DD.

Further, I'm amazed that Habs fans think this highly of a center that is at best average, given this team's history of great centers.

Edit: I will eat every damn word of what I just wrote if DD adjusts and scores 30 goals next year. Because Pleks and Eller will not, and that is what we need. If he's as good as you say, that is what he has to do, he should step up and score goals. I am not interested in his assists. I want to see goals from him. And mark me: He will lose his job if he does not do this. See you in a year.
Thank you for raising your expectations.

What the Habs need of a 1st line center who gets good linemates, disproportionate offensive zone starts, and tons of power play time is simple: 30 goals and 80 points, give or take.

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08-17-2012, 01:11 PM
  #141
Soltantgris
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@BSL

Getzlaf, never scored more then 25 goals. Won a stanley cup.

JoeThonrton, scored 1 time more the 25 goals. He's a 20 goals scorer, and is the 1st center of a powerful team.

HenrikSedin, first line, aournd 20 goals per.

DD, at his first NHL season, got 16 goals. Not a huge amount, ok. But if you watched the game, you know that he scored like 0 goals for the first 10 games or so. You know he was much more agressive around the net on the 2nd part of the season (was more an more comfortable, confident). If I do remember well, DD was a PPG player for the last 40 games or so. Those 16 goals could easily become 25 this year.

But know what ? DD will still chose to pass. It's the primary target of a good center.

And you dont have to use this tone sir. It's just a game, and it's just opinions. We will see in a near future.

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08-17-2012, 01:34 PM
  #142
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A good piece :

Montreal_png

Sometimes someone in the stat community comes out with something that should be so obvious, it's right in front of your face, but no one has done it before. This is what Eric T from our SB Nation sister site Broad Street Hockey as well as the new NHL Numbers blog has done.

What you see in this image is a usage chart of Montreal Canadiens forwards, separated by quality of competition based on the ice time of the opponents each player faces. The really excellent thing about it is that he's separated the forwards a player faces from the defensemen.

I'll let Eric explain his methodology by linking his original piece, while you can also check out the usage charts Eric posted today for all 30 teams here.

One of the things that stood out to me was how much better this makes the top line from last year look. Desharnais faced tougher competition that Toronto's Mikhail Grabovski for example. However the most impressive thing to me was how tightly Pacioretty and Cole were checked.

Any reservations we had about Max Pacioretty being able to handle tough minutes can likely be put to rest.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

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08-17-2012, 01:35 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Soltantgris View Post
@BSL

Getzlaf, never scored more then 25 goals. Won a stanley cup.

JoeThonrton, scored 1 time more the 25 goals. He's a 20 goals scorer, and is the 1st center of a powerful team.

HenrikSedin, first line, aournd 20 goals per.

DD, at his first NHL season, got 16 goals. Not a huge amount, ok. But if you watched the game, you know that he scored like 0 goals for the first 10 games or so. You know he was much more agressive around the net on the 2nd part of the season (was more an more comfortable, confident). If I do remember well, DD was a PPG player for the last 40 games or so. Those 16 goals could easily become 25 this year.

But know what ? DD will still chose to pass. It's the primary target of a good center.

And you dont have to use this tone sir. It's just a game, and it's just opinions. We will see in a near future.
Thornton is an underachiever, one of the greatest in the game's history.

Sedin scores 20 goals and 80 assists, not 20 goals and 40 assists.

Getzlaf? Overrated.

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08-17-2012, 02:12 PM
  #144
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Thornton is an underachiever, one of the greatest in the game's history.


Getzlaf? Overrated.
I'm not sure how scoring over a 1000 career points makes you an underachiever? His playoff stats are questionable but not horrible and it takes a team to win and a hot goalie but I'm not sure he can be faulted for that. He came into the league highly rated but he was not hyped like Crosby or Lindros as the next one.

Getzlaf is pretty solid player...

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08-17-2012, 02:15 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
...
You realize the guy I replied to said 'trade DD for futures'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Thank you for raising your expectations.

What the Habs need of a 1st line center who gets good linemates, disproportionate offensive zone starts, and tons of power play time is simple: 30 goals and 80 points, give or take.
Not sure what you're thanking him for. You clearly have different ideas for DD's spot. You're the one I'm referencing in my reply to him.

If indeed galchenyuk is that big #1 center, are we not allowed to have a 2nd or 3rd line center? It really makes no difference.

Post in question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Galchenyuk is our 1st line center of the future, and Plekanec can be the best 2nd line center in the NHL whose name is not "Evgeni Malkin".

I hope we can trade Desharnais at the end of the year for a lot of futures.
Man, futures would really look better on a line with max and cole than DD.

I can see it now.

Pacioretty-Futures-Cole

Futures with 30+ goals.

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08-17-2012, 02:40 PM
  #146
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DD's on-ice shooting % at even strength:

2009-10 - 7.14
2010-11 - 7.24
2011-12 - 10.39

Pacioretty's:

2009-10 - 5.11
2010-11 - 7.01
2011-12 - 10.24

Cole's:

2009-10 - 7.36
2010-11 - 9.55
2011-12 - 10.03

Does anyone think that the team will shoot above 10% when they are on the ice again next season? I don't, history has shown that these numbers come back to earth.

In Pacioretty's case, he has shown the ability to produce shots consistently, he should do his job even if the percentages come down, and he's the youngest of the group.

With Cole, given his age, I don't think he'll ever quite match last season again, though he'll hopefully still be a good player for the rest of his contract.

Desharnais will be turning 26 before the season. He is already in his prime. His underlying stats have not been as good as his wingers'. He is a very useful player at his current salary, but as far as an extension goes, I'd wait and see.

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08-17-2012, 02:49 PM
  #147
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One more vote for the "there's no need to make any kind of decision right now". In one or two year, Gally will be ready, Plekanec will be getting old, and we'll have a much better idea of Desharnais and Eller long-term worth. THEN it will make sense to think about trading anyone. There's absolutely no need to get crazy right now about our center depth, the timing is just not right to care about this.

And where people see Desharnais as a failed first line center, I see him as a future elite third line center, PP specialist. The guy makes anybody around him produce and is cheap as hell. On a team that always struggles for offense, he's a keeper.

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08-17-2012, 04:50 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not sure what you're thanking him for. You clearly have different ideas for DD's spot. You're the one I'm referencing in my reply to him.
No, bsl and I have the same idea. We want a legitimate 1st line center in the 1st line center spot. Someone like Tavares, Crosby, Toews, Kopitar, etc. That's what the Habs need to compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
If indeed galchenyuk is that big #1 center, are we not allowed to have a 2nd or 3rd line center?
Desharnais is only "effective" because of his privileged minutes, linemates, and PP time.

If you were to give him Eller's job, of playing shutdown with Rene Bourque, Travis Moen, etc, he wouldn't do very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Pacioretty-Futures-Cole

Futures with 30+ goals.
Both bsl and I want the team to become a consistent Stanley Cup contender. The scenario you laugh at is what we need to be a contender.

Neither of us care for 8th place and 1st round playoff exits.

Galchenyuk or next year's 1st rounder may fulfill that role of future 1st line center. If not, we won't be contending for the cup any time soon.

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One more vote for the "there's no need to make any kind of decision right now".
Nobody is proposing that Desharnais be traded right now.

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08-17-2012, 05:21 PM
  #149
One Man Rock Band
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13% is a lot.

13% is the difference between 60 points and 69 points, between 30 goals and 34 goals. It's a big difference.


Were there really people who thought Gionta would produce more than Cole and Pacioretty?

Who?


When has DD ever been a 67% faceoff player?

That would make him the best player in the league for faceoffs.
If you are really using 1 faceoff every two games as a defense, I don't even need to argue that. It's a joke and you know it. Yes, Plekanec takes more actual defensive zone draws -- for a few reasons. One, he's an awesome two-way center. Two, he wins faceoffs in the defensive zone. Desharnais is still young in his NHL career but got better defensively as the year went on. But he's horrible at defensive zone faceoffs where-as he excels in the offensive zone circle (Plekanec is really weak there).

Fair enough, but Gionta was still expected to put up 20-25 goals, which hurt Plekanec after he got hurt. Cammalleri was expected to put up 25-30 goals. Cole 20-25, Pacioretty probably around the same. Our winger depth seemed fine going into the season and the lines struggled until we finally found one that clicked. Unfortunately, Cammalleri turned into a prima-donna (more than he was) and Gionta got injured.

If you read what I said, he was 67% on the PP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
This whole thread is so fail. What the ****. Does no one remember when Habs had great centers?

And why would we extend DD anyway. Why should we? Why is this a topic? There is no need to do this.

We have NO depth at C. We are crap at C and I've been posting this for 2 years. Our centers do not score goals.

Check our goal total for centers last year, and then ask if this might be a reason we finished 27th overall, because it's a huge reason. When are people on this board going to realize this? And don't say his assists count. They don't.

Go talk to Jean Beliveau about centers scoring goals. It is the difference between cup contenders and not. At least one C on your team has to be a big goal scorer. Has to.

When Gretz needed to score goals, he did. When Sid needed to score goals, he did. All great centers can switch to goal scoring mode if required. Gally is that guy, I pray, finally. DD will never ever be that guy, and we have better and bigger centers that play other roles he cannot. I love DD, but he is useless for our team in building a cup winner.

We have **** all in goal scoring at C, and DD is exactly the wrong type of center for us the next 3 years. He's great, but he's ****ing awful in combo with Eller and Pleks, who can't score goals either. You going to trade one of them before DD? No ****ing way.

The last thing we need is yet another second line, small, really small C who can't score goals. DD is wonderful but he's just an awful top 2 C for the Habs medium term.



Agreed. Put DD in Eller's role last year. Switch it up. Let's see what happens then.



There are many, many unassisted goals scored in Hockey. Ever play it? And second assists should be eliminated from scoring also. We need goals from our centers, not average assist totals with very good wingers, and no goals.



This is such a love fest. Yeah I love DD, but what a joke this is. Guys here need to get some perspective on the centers that actually play on good teams. We finished 27th overall last year and posters here are celebrating DD? They should be ****ing pissed off at him, Pleks and Eller. I know I am. They can't score on a ****ing barn door. Christ.

DD had a full time role on this team that finished 27th. He is not a child. He wears the Habs jersey. He deserves to take **** like every player on that team. Every player. They all failed, and they don't need hugs from us. Raise your expectations for players on the the Habs. And injuries are no excuse. Step up and play, replace the injured player. If you can't, you're not good enough. Your team is not good enough.

Perhaps you did not know: Lafleur, Lemaire, Lapointe, Savard and many others used to hear it from fans when they lost. And they expected that. Not hugs. They wore the CH. Rookie or vet, did not matter. Times were different yes, and it's tougher now. But I see no reason to give any player on the Habs a break, and a pat on the back for finishing 27th.

If there is a better Center than DD that can help the Habs win, then I want that player, not DD. So should you.



No, you don't just 'work with you have'. NHL teams can act, they are not helpless. Get better players that fill needs you have, like goal scoring centers.

No. DD does not 'fit in just fine'. He's yet another small, non goal scoring center on a team that has had far too many of them the last 15 years. Wonder if that might have any relation to not winning cups. Hmm.

Look. In conclusion, you guys are gonna torch me. I know this. But I see a disproportionate amount of expectation for this player, especially given his size, and his very small playing sample. I see no realism at all regarding DD.

Further, I'm amazed that Habs fans think this highly of a center that is at best average, given this team's history of great centers.

Edit: I will eat every damn word of what I just wrote if DD adjusts and scores 30 goals next year. Because Pleks and Eller will not, and that is what we need. If he's as good as you say, that is what he has to do, he should step up and score goals. I am not interested in his assists. I want to see goals from him. And mark me: He will lose his job if he does not do this. See you in a year.
lol

We are talking extension because Desharnais is the one man rock band, bayyyybayyyy!

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08-17-2012, 06:06 PM
  #150
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, bsl and I have the same idea. We want a legitimate 1st line center in the 1st line center spot. Someone like Tavares, Crosby, Toews, Kopitar, etc. That's what the Habs need to compete.
Who doesn't? I want Malkin or better yet Gretzky in his prime. I still don't see how DD stops us from attaining that UNLESS he's part of the package for one. When the time comes, we'll assess but for now people suggest "DD is next one out within 1-2 years" as if Getzlaf and company have already signed the deal and we're just waiting. For all we know Gally ends up a star center or another average top 6 center. It's premature to talk about DD being on the way out, that simple. The guy has 1 full NHL season...


Quote:
Desharnais is only "effective" because of his privileged minutes, linemates, and PP time.

If you were to give him Eller's job, of playing shutdown with Rene Bourque, Travis Moen, etc, he wouldn't do very well.
We went through this, Cole and max had good years because of easy minutes. Now, you started this "but they are the best wingers".

Gionta out-goaled cole for the majority the last years, look it up. Entering this season it was expected Gionta would hit 30 goals before Cole or max would.

And If I gave Eller DD job he wouldn't make 60 points. Because they have different skillsets. It's like me saying if Plekanec had Parros' job, he wouldn't last. Okay, this proves what? that they are different players. Not to say it's as extreme as the example I gave but Eller isn't a top 6 center, not yet and maybe not ever.


Quote:
Both bsl and I want the team to become a consistent Stanley Cup contender. The scenario you laugh at is what we need to be a contender.

Neither of us care for 8th place and 1st round playoff exits.

Galchenyuk or next year's 1st rounder may fulfill that role of future 1st line center. If not, we won't be contending for the cup any time soon.
What do you suggest, tanking? Well, you did make a thread about it so yes, it is. I also want a top pick but again, whats this have to do with DD? If you REALLY want to tank trade plekanec, this team will crumble.

Quote:
Nobody is proposing that Desharnais be traded right now.
No, but people are proposing his time is done before it began.

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