HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

The MLD 2012 Assassination Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-17-2012, 01:04 PM
  #51
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
I realize that advocating for your boy is part of the game but keep facts on the table.
This is not at all a dig at TDMM or Zabrodsky (I’m staying out of that one) but let’s all remember this statement going forward.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 01:26 PM
  #52
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,850
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Not completely independent as you are limited to the number of defensemen you can use in a game. Bruins top 6 defensemen do not have an elite puck moving defenseman to quarterback the PP or act as a triggerman from the point. Chara has a great shot but takes too long to execute.

So the Bruins top 6 is great at limiting quality shots at ES but this impacts on their PP since none of the top6 are even close to ideal PP point men.
Yes. Two of the more notable puck-movers they've had recently, Dennis Wideman and Joe Corvo (though, the latter is much more of a shooter), were dealt with accordingly. Julien got a ton of miles out of Wideman, especially when we saw what happened when he was "in charge" of a defense this past year in Washington. He was horrendous. His ability to be a liability was neutralized by having Zdeno Chara babysit him. It was the best Wideman played in his career. Meanwhile, Corvo, who couldn't keep up and wasn't as needed because of his inability to move the puck vs. Wideman, was stuffed down in the lineup and kept out of the way.

Also noteworthy, Julien has gotten away with less than fleet of foot d-men in his time, especially in Boston. Scheme works very well with players with limited mobility on the back line, especially when they receive such a great deal of support from their conscientious two-way centers (such as Bergeron, Krejci, Kelly and Campbell, all regarded for their two-way or defensive play).

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 01:50 PM
  #53
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The 1948 Winter Olympics were held late January/early February 1948. The Czech plane crash occurred in November 1948. Your timeline is obviously out of whack.
.

Thanks for the correction. I should have said that the next spring, the team "cobble together" after the crash beat out Canada for Gold in the 1949 World Chanpionships.

Quote:
I realize that advocating for your boy is part of the game but keep facts on the table.
Yes, I'm twisting facts to make a player we originally drafted as a spare look better. It couldn't possibly be because I don't share your chauvinistic views on European hockey before the Summit Series.

Quote:
In 1950 the Soviet National Hockey Team was also decimated, losing 11 players, in a plane crash Sverdlovsk, which Vsevolod Bobrov avoided.
Guryshev and others avoided it too. The crash itself is a big reason the Soviets didn't make their hockey debut until 1954. And as tragic as the crash was, it didnt wipe out the entire team like what happened to the Czechs in 1950.

Quote:
Zabrodsky, Bobrov, Guryshev fit into the founders group. Neither played into the sixties like Sven Tumba or Sterner who played into the seventies. Compared to contemporaries Sven Tumba and Sterner would rank with Firsov as the top three Europeans.
Would you consider early era Canadians (say, before 1900) to be "founders" too?

Would you really rank Tumba and Sterner over Starshinov or Suchy?

Your artificial distinction of "founders" makes no sense. We're talking 5 players whose careers overlapped and the younger players did not particularly outperform the older ones

Quote:
1956 was not arbitrary as you imply, rather it reflects the changes in hockey, both in Europe and NA. Canada where the semi pro leagues were redefined with a clearer distinction between the amateur and pro leagues with procedures for amateur reinstatement.
So it means something for Canada. What does it mean for Europe?

Quote:
The European countries had moved beyond tragedies and political issues to establish leagues and national teams. The USA had taken steps towards unifying the various governing bodies, NCAA hockey was growing and elements were in place for the 1960 Olympic success.
Czechoslovakia hadn't recovered yet from 1950. If they had, why would the IIHF declare "an entire generation lost?"

http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-ii.../story-48.html


Quote:
Point about Zabrodsky illustrated the lack of depth and diverse talent on the Czechoslovakian team. Simply the best player on a weaker team appears statistically better than the best player on a stronger team.
What about the best player on the most dominant National Team in the World for a few years? Yes, the competition wasn't that strong, but it does say something that the Czechoslovaks were superior enough to the Soviets to train them in 1948; that Soviet team that

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 01:52 PM
  #54
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
This is not at all a dig at TDMM or Zabrodsky (I’m staying out of that one) but let’s all remember this statement going forward.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to find this statement ironic

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 01:58 PM
  #55
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm sure I'm not the only one to find this statement ironic
Right, because I have a problem with facts.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 02:31 PM
  #56
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
This is just going to be a board wide memo because I've been noticing it a lot more lately.

You CANNOT copy and paste full articles into bios. This is against site rules. Please just simply pick out the important parts that say what needs to be said about your player, then direct to the original source (be it web site, book, etc.).

I'm also going to copy and paste this into the first post in the bio thread.

vecens24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 02:32 PM
  #57
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Right, because I have a problem with facts.
Not a problem with facts but your "advocacy" used to be legendary. Weren't some people surprised you weren't a lawyer at some point? Just found it funny that's all. Carry on.

Since I'm talking so much about early Euros, I'll hit up jkrx's team soon.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 03:13 PM
  #58
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Mike Buckna, Amateur rules. etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
.

Thanks for the correction. I should have said that the next spring, the team "cobble together" after the crash beat out Canada for Gold in the 1949 World Chanpionships.



Yes, I'm twisting facts to make a player we originally drafted as a spare look better. It couldn't possibly be because I don't share your chauvinistic views on European hockey before the Summit Series.



Guryshev and others avoided it too. The crash itself is a big reason the Soviets didn't make their hockey debut until 1954. And as tragic as the crash was, it didnt wipe out the entire team like what happened to the Czechs in 1950.



Would you consider early era Canadians (say, before 1900) to be "founders" too?

Would you really rank Tumba and Sterner over Starshinov or Suchy?

Your artificial distinction of "founders" makes no sense. We're talking 5 players whose careers overlapped and the younger players did not particularly outperform the older ones



So it means something for Canada. What does it mean for Europe?



Czechoslovakia hadn't recovered yet from 1950. If they had, why would the IIHF declare "an entire generation lost?"

http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-ii.../story-48.html




What about the best player on the most dominant National Team in the World for a few years? Yes, the competition wasn't that strong, but it does say something that the Czechoslovaks were superior enough to the Soviets to train them in 1948; that Soviet team that
Czechoslovakian hockey in the forties is a tribute to a Canadian Mike Buckna:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Buckna

who put in the structure, organized and coached the national team in 1947 and 1948.So the Czechs had an edge because their game had Canadian elements and a Canadian coach. Basically what the Czechs brought to the Soviet Union is a reflection of what Mike Buckna introduced in Czechoslovakia.

My point that you twist into chauvinism is about the two sets of rules that existed in hockey starting with the 1943-44 season and the start of the 1969-70 season. The NHL, pro and semi pro leagues and all of Canada used the red line and allowed the aggressive forecheck in the offensive zone. The NCAA, AAU and AHA in the USA and Europe did not recognize the red line and did not allow body checking by the offensive team in the defensive zone. This seriously hampered the development of USA trained hockey players in the fifties and early sixties. It impacted European hockey as well. Both the USA and Europe had to reshape programs in 1969. The results were obvious with the influx of USA and European trained players by the mid 1970s.

Founders. Early Canadian hockey as well.

Suchy lacked on and off ice discipline somewhat like Guy Lafleur. Vyacheslav Starshinov and him would rank 4th and 5th. Did not have the complete game that Sven Tumba and Sterner did or the explosive varied offense that Firsov did.

1956 Soviet gold medal was a clear signal to European hockey that the structure in place was solid.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 04:15 PM
  #59
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Not a problem with facts but your "advocacy" used to be legendary. Weren't some people surprised you weren't a lawyer at some point? Just found it funny that's all. Carry on.
Advocacy, based on facts, perhaps...

it was raleh that made that statement and it is just as baseless now as it was then, particuarly the bolded:

Well, mostly that was just a joke. However, you will notice that he is by far the best in this group at making cases for his players. He has the ability to sell you on a guy, then in the next draft rip that guy to pieces...whether he means to or not haha.

haha, you make it sound like a bad thing. It's actually pretty impressive! I forget who it was, maybe VCL, was absolutely shocked to find out Seventies wasn't a lawyer!

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 05:58 PM
  #60
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Right, because I have a problem with facts.
Made me think of this...


Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 07:14 PM
  #61
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
My point that you twist into chauvinism is about the two sets of rules that existed in hockey starting with the 1943-44 season and the start of the 1969-70 season. The NHL, pro and semi pro leagues and all of Canada used the red line and allowed the aggressive forecheck in the offensive zone. The NCAA, AAU and AHA in the USA and Europe did not recognize the red line and did not allow body checking by the offensive team in the defensive zone. This seriously hampered the development of USA trained hockey players in the fifties and early sixties. It impacted European hockey as well. Both the USA and Europe had to reshape programs in 1969. The results were obvious with the influx of USA and European trained players by the mid 1970s.
Don't you find it odd that we always assume the NHL rules were the "right rules" at the time.

There's no denying that a lot of players who went from European/American rules into he NHL failed. The question is, why did they fail. Did they fail bacause they couldn't adjust to the rules, or because they just weren't good enough?

In the ATD, it's important to identify the best hockey players, and not just the best players who can play an NHL style. Since the ATD games are played in no particular era, with no particular set of rules, and in n particular style, the fact that some players played under abnormal rules isn't really relevant.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 08:01 PM
  #62
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Don't you find it odd that we always assume the NHL rules were the "right rules" at the time.

There's no denying that a lot of players who went from European/American rules into he NHL failed. The question is, why did they fail. Did they fail bacause they couldn't adjust to the rules, or because they just weren't good enough?

In the ATD, it's important to identify the best hockey players, and not just the best players who can play an NHL style. Since the ATD games are played in no particular era, with no particular set of rules, and in n particular style, the fact that some players played under abnormal rules isn't really relevant.
No assumptions are being made about the NHL rules being the right rules. History has shown very clearly that the NHL rules forced the defensemen to move the puck faster, transition better, to play with their heads-up. It also made the game more interesting the defensive team could no longer simply play keep away to kill time.

Then you have the impact on the forwards who had to develop a forechecking game, improve corner work in the offensive zone plus they had to change their break-out from their defensive zone, playing with their heads-up, coming back deeper into their defensive zone and changing their exit angles.

Failure is failure regardless of the reason.

And that is what the appreciation of the rules does.Look at the results of various NHL rule changes over the years, starting with the forward pass.

Player skills are defined by how quickly a defenseman moves the puck, how well a forward forechecks or plays in his defensive zone.

In context this means that a Jean Paul Lamirande, 1959 WC best defenseman but a quickly discarded NHL defenseman who built a solid career in minor and semi-pro ranks was better than or equal to the best European and American defensemen, mainly because he was not rushed like he was in NHL or pro/semi pro hockey.

So again we are either undervaluing the NA players the quality of Connie Broden, Jean Paul Lamirande, and other Canadians who did well in international play or ignoring weaknesses in European and American players who had gaps in their games.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 08:25 PM
  #63
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Failure is failure regardless of the reason.
Maybe, but the reason determines how much we value that failure.

Quote:
In context this means that a Jean Paul Lamirande, 1959 WC best defenseman but a quickly discarded NHL defenseman who built a solid career in minor and semi-pro ranks was better than or equal to the best European and American defensemen, mainly because he was not rushed like he was in NHL or pro/semi pro hockey.

So again we are either undervaluing the NA players the quality of Connie Broden, Jean Paul Lamirande, and other Canadians who did well in international play or ignoring weaknesses in European and American players who had gaps in their games.
There's a big difference between going to one tournement, where having one good week of hockey can put you at the top of the scoring leaderboard, and going to multiple tournements and repeatedly showing up on the leaderboard.

Lots of Canadian guys went over and had one good week. That's not the same as what many of the top Europeans did.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 08:35 PM
  #64
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Czechoslovakian hockey in the forties is a tribute to a Canadian Mike Buckna:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Buckna

who put in the structure, organized and coached the national team in 1947 and 1948.So the Czechs had an edge because their game had Canadian elements and a Canadian coach. Basically what the Czechs brought to the Soviet Union is a reflection of what Mike Buckna introduced in Czechoslovakia.
Yup, Buckna brought Canadian training to Czechoslovakia, who then in turn brought it to the USSR.

Quote:
My point that you twist into chauvinism is about the two sets of rules that existed in hockey starting with the 1943-44 season and the start of the 1969-70 season. The NHL, pro and semi pro leagues and all of Canada used the red line and allowed the aggressive forecheck in the offensive zone. The NCAA, AAU and AHA in the USA and Europe did not recognize the red line and did not allow body checking by the offensive team in the defensive zone. This seriously hampered the development of USA trained hockey players in the fifties and early sixties. It impacted European hockey as well. Both the USA and Europe had to reshape programs in 1969. The results were obvious with the influx of USA and European trained players by the mid 1970s.
Dreakmur already covered this for the most part.

But to add to what he said, I don't see how this is relevant in determining the best players in Europe. The best players in Europe before 1969 were Anatoli Firsov and Jan Suchy, and they remained the best players in Europe for a few years after the rule changes.

Quote:
Founders. Early Canadian hockey as well.
Okay. You're certainly entitled to that view. Good to see it is consistently applied.

Quote:
Suchy lacked on and off ice discipline somewhat like Guy Lafleur.
Can you provide a source for Suchy lacking on ice discipline? I realize he was a drunk off the ice.

Quote:
Vyacheslav Starshinov and him would rank 4th and 5th. Did not have the complete game that Sven Tumba and Sterner did or the explosive varied offense that Firsov did.

1956 Soviet gold medal was a clear signal to European hockey that the structure in place was solid.
You're entitled to your views, though I don't know if many would agree with them. Starshinov was more dominant in a better league than either Tumba or Sterner and Suchy was much more dominant internationally over better competition than any of them.

Does the fact that Tumba and Sterner tried out for the NHL and the others didn't have any influence on your views?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 09:13 PM
  #65
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Research

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Maybe, but the reason determines how much we value that failure.



There's a big difference between going to one tournement, where having one good week of hockey can put you at the top of the scoring leaderboard, and going to multiple tournements and repeatedly showing up on the leaderboard.

Lots of Canadian guys went over and had one good week. That's not the same as what many of the top Europeans did.
Jean Paul Lamirande was in his second WC when he won the best defenseman:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lamirje01.html

his point total in 1959 was 1G/0A hardly leader board quality numbers.

The USA teams featured many regular spanning two olympics and many WCs - John Mayasich, Christian brothers amongst others.Likewise for Canada especially once the Team Canada concept with Father David Bauer was established. On defense you had regulars like Gary Begg, Marshall Johnston, Terry O'Malley. Johnston was fairly efficient moving the puck under the pre 1969-70 International rules but a slug in the NHL Likewise Lou Nanne an NCAA defenseman who played an eficient international game on defence but had to convert to forward in the NHL because he could not handle the pressure.

The international rules gave a false impression, overrated of European and NA player skills.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 09:33 PM
  #66
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

But to add to what he said, I don't see how this is relevant in determining the best players in Europe. The best players in Europe before 1969 were Anatoli Firsov and Jan Suchy, and they remained the best players in Europe for a few years after the rule changes.


Can you provide a source for Suchy lacking on ice discipline? I realize he was a drunk off the ice.



You're entitled to your views, though I don't know if many would agree with them. Starshinov was more dominant in a better league than either Tumba or Sterner and Suchy was much more dominant internationally over better competition than any of them.

Does the fact that Tumba and Sterner tried out for the NHL and the others didn't have any influence on your views?
Sven Tumba and Sterner had longevity. Firsov and Suchy were mid sixties on.

Suchy on ice discipline. Check his PIMs. For the European Bobby Orr in a non physical environment they indicate a lack of on ice discipline.

http://internationalhockeylegends.bl...jan-suchy.html

Starshinov. The Soviet league was never as balanced top to bottom of as the Swedish league was

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 10:21 PM
  #67
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jean Paul Lamirande was in his second WC when he won the best defenseman:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lamirje01.html

his point total in 1959 was 1G/0A hardly leader board quality numbers.

The USA teams featured many regular spanning two olympics and many WCs - John Mayasich, Christian brothers amongst others.Likewise for Canada especially once the Team Canada concept with Father David Bauer was established. On defense you had regulars like Gary Begg, Marshall Johnston, Terry O'Malley. Johnston was fairly efficient moving the puck under the pre 1969-70 International rules but a slug in the NHL Likewise Lou Nanne an NCAA defenseman who played an eficient international game on defence but had to convert to forward in the NHL because he could not handle the pressure.

The international rules gave a false impression, overrated of European and NA player skills.
As I said before, it's easy to have oe great week, but it's tough to duplicate.

The fact that some players attended multiple WCs and Olympics means basically nothing. I'm talking about guys who excelled at multiple tournaments.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 11:18 PM
  #68
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Sven Tumba and Sterner had longevity. Firsov and Suchy were mid sixties on.

Suchy on ice discipline. Check his PIMs. For the European Bobby Orr in a non physical environment they indicate a lack of on ice discipline.

http://internationalhockeylegends.bl...jan-suchy.html

Starshinov. The Soviet league was never as balanced top to bottom of as the Swedish league was
I'm going to wind down this conversation soon since it has very little to do with MLD players. But I have to respond briefly to these claims.

1)351 PIMs in 561 league games is all the evidence you have of lack of discipline for Suchy? Pretty weak.

2) The balance or lack thereof of the Soviet league isn't particularly important when we are talking about someone who led the league in goals multiple times. It would be relevant to margins of leading, not the fact of leading. Seriously, the Soviet National Team completely wiped the floor with the Swedish National Team (and everyone else) in the mid-late 60s, but your claim is that Sweden actually had better players because the Soviets tended to hoard their best players on the same team in their respective domestic leagues? Makes no sense.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-18-2012 at 12:09 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2012, 11:41 PM
  #69
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Fran Huck plus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As I said before, it's easy to have oe great week, but it's tough to duplicate.

The fact that some players attended multiple WCs and Olympics means basically nothing. I'm talking about guys who excelled at multiple tournaments.
Fran Huck, 4 events, over a PPG, IIHF HOFer

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/huckfr01.html

Bill Cleary USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cl...8ice_hockey%29
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=39311

1959 WC Best Forward. 1956 Silver, 1960 Gold medal Olympian, IIHF HOFer

John Mayasich USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mayasich
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=12619

1962 WC Best Defenseman. 1956 Silver, 1960 Gold medal Olympian.IIHF HOFer.

Bill Christian:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=12718

1960 Gold Medal Olympian, IIHF HOFer.

Marshall Johnston:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...johnsma01.html

4 events, IIHF HOFer

Looks that they excelled by IIHF standards.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 12:08 AM
  #70
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Brynäs IF review

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Brynäs IF

Coach: Tommy Sandlin
Captain: Sven Tumba
Ass. Captains: Ulf Dahlen and Rolle Stoltz

Uffe Sterner - Sven Tumba - Mikael Renberg
Jörgen Pettersson - Niklas Bäckström - Ulf Dahlen
P.J. Axelsson - Thomas Gradin - Niklas Sundström
Johan Franzén - Nisse Nilsson - Ronald Pettersson
Sune Almqvist, Willy Lindström

Lasse Björn - Rolle Stoltz
Kim Johnsson - Niklas Kronwall
Marcus Ragnarsson - Alexander Edler
Axel Nilsson, Tobias Enström

Pelle Lindbergh
Leif "Honken" Holmqvist

PP1

Sterner - Tumba - Renberg
Björn - Stoltz

PP2

Pettersson - Bäckström - Dahlen
Edler - Kronwall

PK1

Gradin - Sundström
Johnsson - Ragnarsson

PK2

Sterner - Axelsson
Stoltz - Björn
You should have just called this team "Tre Kronor" and been done with it. I'm going to try to give this team a fair review, but you definitely know more about the styles that these guys played than I do.

First line
Opinions on Tumba depend on what you think of the quality of European hockey during the 50s and 60s, when the performance of their teams was no better than Canadian amateurs. My thoughts? The true standout Europeans are worth recognizing. Canada had much more depth, but the standout Canadians would move on to the NHL. There were indeed some standout Europeans who excelled in tournament after tournament, and Tumba is one of them. I ran his numbers on the HOH board and am very impressed that over more than a decade of World Championships and Olympics, he NEVER finished lower than 4th on his team in scoring, usually leading Tre Kronor or finished 2nd. And (as was news to me), his domestic stats as reported by SIHR are worthless - the domestic league comprised of two "divisions" that didn't play each other, with one division much stronger than the other. So when someone finished ahead of Tumba domestically, it was often just by beating up on the weak division.

My thoughts on Tumba? Given his fiesty, competitive nature, I could definitely see him as a 4th liner in the ATD. I think he's a good building block for a first line here, albeit a hard to build around one as a goal scoring center. The more I look at Tumba, the more I like him than either Bobrov or Zabrodsky - his consistency and longevity as a top player in tournaments is outstanding.

I'm less impressed by his linemates, though Ulf Sterner probably is good enough to deserve to be on a scoring line here. Tumba is known as a guy who brings a lot of goalscoring and some grit, but not as much playmaking as you'd like from a top center. So he needs one of his wings to carry the playmaking of the line. Sterner reads like a good playmaker; the only question is - how much of it was from center and how much was from wing? I know he's sometimes listed as C/LW, but how much of his production came from LW? I honestly don't know.

Renberg has great "glue guy" attributes, but I think his offense is subpar for a top line, even as a glue guy. He's definitely not the playmaker Tumba needs, so hopefully Sterner can do it.

Other Forwards
I love Backstrom and Dahlen on your second line. We coveted Backstrom highly for his two-way ability - great second line-center here. And Dahlen brings passable offense and defense to go along with elite boardwork. Jörgen Pettersson is a jack-of-all trades, master at known. He might be a bit over his head on a scoring line, though. I could see your second line really frustrating some of the softer scoring lines out there, with Dahlen and Pettersson controlling the puck along the boards and Backstrom playing well defensively.

Third line is solid. Axelsson is a pretty good defensive specialist. You could do better than Gradin and especially the lesser Sundstrom, I think, but those are the sacrifices you make when you restrict yourself to all Swedes. Neither is THAT bad for his role with Gradin leaning more towards offense and lesser Sundstrom leaning more towards defense.

Unless you know something about Nils Nilsson that I don't, I see him as an offense-only player who probably should have waited until the AAA. Not a typical 4th liner. Though the fact that you do have two defensively responsible lines in your 2nd and 3rd make it easier to swallow. His real life linemate Roland Pettersson does have some typical 4th line skills. Franzen is basically a grinder in the regular season at this level, but he can chip in some playoff goals.

Sune Almqvist is an example of hurting your team by sticking too rigidly to a theme. In all the World Championships in the 1920s and 1930s, Sweden medaled once, winning a single silver. Great Britain and US amateurs were significantly better than Sweden over this period. You'd better hope that you don't need to dress him due to injury, because he'll be completely over his head. Lindstrom is a lot better, but still subpar as far as I can tell. Unimpressive totals in the WHA and NHL, though he does seem to raise his game in the postseason.

Lack of depth could really kill you if there are injuries.

Defense

If you're going to draft 1950s Swedes, why not draft their longtime top pairing of Lasse Björn - Rolle Stoltz? I'd really feel more comfortable with them if they weren't your top pairing, however. They didn't stand out THAT much against the European competition of the 1950s. Bjorn was Best Defenseman at the 1954 WCs and that's it - a pretty thin resume to be honest. Stoltz was Best Defenseman at the 1963 WCs and was selected the best player in Sweden in 1959 (an honor that Tumba never received for some reason - Hobnobs said on HOH that it was because the newspaper that gave the award thought he was too arrogant).

Kim Johnsson is not as historically significant as Bjorn or Stoltz, but he might be your best defenseman. He received All Star votes on two separate occasions - not an easy task for a defensive defenseman in the modern era. He was Jacques Lemaire's go-to guy back when Minnesota was a defensive powerhouse. Kronwall probably deserves to be a MLD defenseman by now.

You literally picked Ragnarsson right after I decided to PM Dreakmur that he might be worth looking into instead of Scott Hannon. Not a guy you want to give a lot of minutes to at this level, but a very good defensive specialist for a bottom pair. I guess Edler is worthy by now of bottom pairing duty.

Tobias Enstrom is a great spare - does anyone think he should dress over Edler?

Axel Nilsson is another pre-World War 2 Swede who I think is a scrub at this level. Swedish hockey was just not that developed back then.

I see a unit lacking a true #1 but well put together (other than the last spare).

Goaltending

Lindbergh had one amazing season, but it really was just one amazing season. Even before his tragic death, he didn't really stand out in his other NHL seasons. I was sold a little bit on him last year though - he was very good in Sweden (including in the World Championships), so he definitely was more than a one-season wonder. I'm just not sure how much more. His overall resume is probably a bit below average for a starter here, right?

Holmqvist is a very good backup. I'd honestly love to see a comparison between him and Lindbergh, but I'm not going to put forth what would be a pretty big undertaking.

Coaching and leadership

As the inventor of the 1-3-1 and the guy who led Sweden to an upset win over the powerful Soviets at the 1987 World Championships, Gandlin is definitely a worthy coach here. And he's obviously a perfect fit for your team. Tumba is a solid captain, the assistants are okay.

Powerplay

Again the Tumba - Sterner combo. Tumba is good, Sterner is okay. Renberg has a role, but as a scorer, he's a weak link. Dahlen actually scored a lot of his goals in front of the net on the PP, so it might be worth a look at moving him up to the first unit. Stoltz and Bjorn seem like more overall defensemen, so on the powerplay, they are probably not so strong (correct me if I'm wrong).

Backstrom and Dahlen are great on the second PP; Pettersson's offense is quite poor for an ATD PP player. At least in the playoffs, I would seriously consider replacing Pettersson with Franzen. Kromwall and Edler are okay; nothing special.

Overall, seems a pretty weak powerplay. You don't really have a top-notch PP QB and Renberg and especially Pettersson are weak links up front.

Penalty Kill

Love the defensemen on the first unti. Bjorn-Stolz are okay for the second I guess. Axelsson is a great defensive specialist; do you think Sundstrom is really a better choice for the first unit? He's okay though. The centers are the only issue. Gradin has solid defensive credentials, but is nothing like an all-time great penalty killer. I have no idea if Sterner has defensive or PK credentials at all. I honestly think Backstrom might be your best choice as a PKing center.

Overall

Definitely the most competitive "theme team" I've ever seen in the MLD. But considering theme teams generally do very poorly, what is that saying? I think you definitely have some great pieces here - Sterner-Tumba, Backstrom-Dahlen, Johnsson and Ragnarsson on D. Not to mention a coach that nobody ever drafted before (as far as I know), but one who definitely should have been. I honestly think Sandlin is probably one of the better coaches in the draft.

After you had drafted the first 1/3 to 1/2 of your team, I was really excited to see what you could do with the rest. Ultimately though, restricting yourself to a certain class of players limits your options and does leave you with some significant weaknesses. Your PP is weak. (Were you relying on drafting Anders Eldebrink for your PP only to see him scooped away?) Your bottom 6 is okay, but probably below average. I don't really see a natural #1 defenseman.

And two of your spares are complete scrubs... I realize they were just drafted for era requirements, but...

Whether this team does damage depends entirely on how other GMs view European players from the 1950s and early 60s when the game hadn't fully developed yet, as your first unit depends almost entirely upon them.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-18-2012 at 12:16 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 12:16 AM
  #71
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Advocacy, based on facts, perhaps...

it was raleh that made that statement and it is just as baseless now as it was then, particuarly the bolded:

Well, mostly that was just a joke. However, you will notice that he is by far the best in this group at making cases for his players. He has the ability to sell you on a guy, then in the next draft rip that guy to pieces...whether he means to or not haha.

haha, you make it sound like a bad thing. It's actually pretty impressive! I forget who it was, maybe VCL, was absolutely shocked to find out Seventies wasn't a lawyer!
I think we all get a little caught up in our own teams sometimes.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 12:23 AM
  #72
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Suchy and Sixties Soviets

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm going to wind down this conversation soonb since it has very little to do with MLD players. But I have to respond briefly to these claims.

1)351 PIMs in 561 league games is all the evidence you have of lack of discipline for Suchy? Pretty weak.

2) The balance or lack thereof of the Soviet league isn't particularly important when we are talking about someone who led the league in goals multiple times. It would be relevant to margins of leading, not the fact of leading. Seriously, the Soviet National Team completely wiped the floor with the Swedish National Team (and everyone else) in the mid-late 60s, but your claim is that Sweden actually had better players because the Soviets tended to hoard their best players on the same team in their respective domestic leagues? Makes no sense.

You admitted that Suchy was a drunk. Athletes who are drunks off the ice are not reliable on the ice or on a team. Not in condition to practice, require special considerations which eventually undermine team morale and performance. Phil Esposito was pretty explicit about this when talking about the Bruins and their lack of SC success.

Unless you actually saw the Swedes, Czechs and Soviets from the sixties play in Canada or televised international games. Add 6 solid minor leaguers including a good goalie to a middling junior team and the Soviet National team was very mortal playing to a .500 record even though they had the advantage of international rules.
Play them against a first year pro post Memorial Cup alumni / junior team and they get beat 9-3.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 12:44 AM
  #73
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Fran Huck, 4 events, over a PPG, IIHF HOFer

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/huckfr01.html

Bill Cleary USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cl...8ice_hockey%29
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=39311

1959 WC Best Forward. 1956 Silver, 1960 Gold medal Olympian, IIHF HOFer

John Mayasich USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mayasich
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=12619

1962 WC Best Defenseman. 1956 Silver, 1960 Gold medal Olympian.IIHF HOFer.

Bill Christian:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=12718

1960 Gold Medal Olympian, IIHF HOFer.

Marshall Johnston:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...johnsma01.html

4 events, IIHF HOFer

Looks that they excelled by IIHF standards.
First of all, your definition of excell must be a lot looser than mine. Frank Huck was never a top-5 scorer. Cleary and Cristian were only top-10 once each.

Second, you missed the best guy - Jackie McLeod. Top-2 in scoring for 3 consecutive years.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 12:46 AM
  #74
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Sven Tumba.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You should have just called this team "Tre Kronor" and been done with it. I'm going to try to give this team a fair review, but you definitely know more about the styles that these guys played than I do.

First line
Opinions on Tumba depend on what you think of the quality of European hockey during the 50s and 60s, when the performance of their teams was no better than Canadian amateurs. My thoughts? The true standout Europeans are worth recognizing. Canada had much more depth, but the standout Canadians would move on to the NHL. There were indeed some standout Europeans who excelled in tournament after tournament, and Tumba is one of them. I ran his numbers on the HOH board and am very impressed that over more than a decade of World Championships and Olympics, he NEVER finished lower than 4th on his team in scoring, usually leading Tre Kronor or finished 2nd. And (as was news to me), his domestic stats as reported by SIHR are worthless - the domestic league comprised of two "divisions" that didn't play each other, with one division much stronger than the other. So when someone finished ahead of Tumba domestically, it was often just by beating up on the weak division.

My thoughts on Tumba? Given his fiesty, competitive nature, I could definitely see him as a 4th liner in the ATD. I think he's a good building block for a first line here, albeit a hard to build around one as a goal scoring center. The more I look at Tumba, the more I like him than either Bobrov or Zabrodsky - his consistency and longevity as a top player in tournaments is outstanding.

I'm less impressed by his linemates, though Ulf Sterner probably is good enough to deserve to be on a scoring line here. Tumba is known as a guy who brings a lot of goalscoring and some grit, but not as much playmaking as you'd like from a top center. So he needs one of his wings to carry the playmaking of the line. Sterner reads like a good playmaker; the only question is - how much of it was from center and how much was from wing? I know he's sometimes listed as C/LW, but how much of his production came from LW? I honestly don't know.

Renberg has great "glue guy" attributes, but I think his offense is subpar for a top line, even as a glue guy. He's definitely not the playmaker Tumba needs, so hopefully Sterner can do it.


Sven Tumba. To give you a better picture of Sven Tumba, think Jean Beliveau. Beliveau is viewed as a playmaking center yet when needed he assumed goal scoring roles on the team.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid[]=297

check how Beliveau's G:A ratio varied as his role and linemates changed over the years.

Sven Tumba clearly illustrated in his brief tryout with the 1957-58 Quebec Aces that he could fill the playmaking role.

Ulf Sterner is definitely good enough to be a first line LW here and elsewhere.

Michael Renberg - do not recall Lindros and Leclair complaining about Renberg being the RW on their line:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...renbemi01.html

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 12:54 AM
  #75
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,445
vCash: 500
Amateurs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
First of all, your definition of excell must be a lot looser than mine. Frank Huck was never a top-5 scorer. Cleary and Cristian were only top-10 once each.

Second, you missed the best guy - Jackie McLeod. Top-2 in scoring for 3 consecutive years.
Wanted to limit the consideration to amateurs. Jackie McLeod was a reinstated pro, not eligible for the Olympics.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:00 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.