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08-17-2012, 07:35 PM
  #151
Milhouse40
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Originally Posted by Soltantgris View Post
@BSL

Getzlaf, never scored more then 25 goals. Won a stanley cup.

JoeThonrton, scored 1 time more the 25 goals. He's a 20 goals scorer, and is the 1st center of a powerful team.

HenrikSedin, first line, aournd 20 goals per.

DD, at his first NHL season, got 16 goals. Not a huge amount, ok. But if you watched the game, you know that he scored like 0 goals for the first 10 games or so. [You know he was much more agressive around the net on the 2nd part of the season (was more an more comfortable, confident). If I do remember well, DD was a PPG player for the last 40 games or so. Those 16 goals could easily become 25 this year.

But know what ? DD will still chose to pass. It's the primary target of a good center.

And you dont have to use this tone sir. It's just a game, and it's just opinions. We will see in a near future.
Can't agree with you since DD didn't score a single goal in the last 11 games of the season.

Eller scored 16 also......2 in powerplay, one less than Desharnais but he played 59 minutes....not 266 minutes like Desharnais!!!

Imagine if that guy had the same amount of PP, same amount of ice time, easy minutes and good wingers......25-30 goals easy!!!!

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08-17-2012, 07:44 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
You know that the offensive zone starts that everyone goes wild about is like 1-2 faceoffs per game average. It's really not that big of a deal. So he starts 2 extra times in the offensive zone - he should, he was producing! Actually, just doing the stats now, it's less than one faceoff per game at ES. Desharnais gets 4.28 faceoffs per game at ES in the offensive zone, while Plekanec gets 3.80. So that's just under 1/2 a faceoff less per game.

Example; every two games, Desharnais takes 9 offensive zone ES faceoffs, Plekanec takes 8.

Big ****ing whoop. That argument is so overused when it means very little.

Secondly, Erik Cole and Max Pacioretty weren't SUPPOSED to be our two best wingers last season. They were supposed to be #3 and #4. Gionta and Cammalleri (who started with Plekanec) were supposed to be the best two wingers on the team.

Funny how in the few games Desharnais played with Cammalleri, he started to produce again (no idea why Cammalleri was removed from his line after this -- especially with the praise that Cammy had for DD). Leblanc also got a few points on this line.


Using D'Agostini is ridiculous. When he came up, he was on fire. He stopped playing with Koivu pretty quickly after he started slumping.

Plekanec also got plenty of PP time. Desharnais had just 16-minutes more than him this year. Plekanec had less PP time last year and produced more than he did this year with more time. Also, DD SHOULD start the PPs. Why? He wins the faceoff. Last year, he posted a 67% faceoff on the PP, while Plekanec had a 49%. That tells me DD deserves the ice first.

DD is always going to be an underdog though and he feeds off that. Can't wait to hear the excuses after he puts up another career year.
Not really all that surprising as he faces weaker opposition. Plekanec gets the tougher minutes.
Not a knock on DD, it was the right way to do it.

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08-17-2012, 07:59 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not really all that surprising as he faces weaker opposition. Plekanec gets the tougher minutes.
Not a knock on DD, it was the right way to do it.
Well why put a soft/perimeter player like Cammalleri against tough competition? Oh right, we had terrible management.

I hope DD gets put against tougher competition this year so we can see what he can do.

But this one argument (unlike the ridiculous offensive zone starts argument) that actually holds weight. But then again, why would a rookie (close enough) ever be put against the toughest NHL competition, right?

How many rookies or young players are put against weak competition and don't hit 60 points in their first year?

I also hate how DD it's always offensive zone starts and easy competition but that's almost never brought up for Cole or Patches. Seems ridiculous, right?

I dont get how he has so many doubters still. He did for his whole career and he just keeps making them look stupid. You'd think people would learn sooner or later.

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08-17-2012, 09:15 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Well why put a soft/perimeter player like Cammalleri against tough competition? Oh right, we had terrible management.

I hope DD gets put against tougher competition this year so we can see what he can do.

But this one argument (unlike the ridiculous offensive zone starts argument) that actually holds weight. But then again, why would a rookie (close enough) ever be put against the toughest NHL competition, right?

How many rookies or young players are put against weak competition and don't hit 60 points in their first year?

I also hate how DD it's always offensive zone starts and easy competition but that's almost never brought up for Cole or Patches. Seems ridiculous, right?

I dont get how he has so many doubters still. He did for his whole career and he just keeps making them look stupid. You'd think people would learn sooner or later.
See it that way.....Desharnais is where he is today because of his doubters.....in a way, we.re helping him and you are not....

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08-17-2012, 09:35 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
See it that way.....Desharnais is where he is today because of his doubters.....in a way, we.re helping him and you are not....
Someone had to believe to get him where he is today.

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08-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Soltantgris View Post
@BSL

Getzlaf, never scored more then 25 goals. Won a stanley cup.

JoeThonrton, scored 1 time more the 25 goals. He's a 20 goals scorer, and is the 1st center of a powerful team.

HenrikSedin, first line, aournd 20 goals per.

DD, at his first NHL season, got 16 goals. Not a huge amount, ok. But if you watched the game, you know that he scored like 0 goals for the first 10 games or so. You know he was much more agressive around the net on the 2nd part of the season (was more an more comfortable, confident). If I do remember well, DD was a PPG player for the last 40 games or so. Those 16 goals could easily become 25 this year.

But know what ? DD will still chose to pass. It's the primary target of a good center.

And you dont have to use this tone sir. It's just a game, and it's just opinions. We will see in a near future.
Yeah sorry my tone is too serious sometimes...no offense to anyone.

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08-17-2012, 09:57 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not really all that surprising as he faces weaker opposition. Plekanec gets the tougher minutes.
Not a knock on DD, it was the right way to do it.
False.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/17/time...r-all-30-teams

DD's line faced tougher opposition, and still managed to finish with a pretty nice +- ratio. Our first line wasnt the problem last year... we just had no defense, no 2nd line, no 3rd line, no 4th line, and our goaltender was unable to win game !

DD will hit 70+ this year. Book it. Next subject ?

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08-17-2012, 09:57 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Yeah sorry my tone is too serious sometimes...no offense to anyone.
No worry, im like you often

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Old
08-17-2012, 10:03 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Soltantgris View Post
False.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/17/time...r-all-30-teams

DD's line faced tougher opposition, and still managed to finish with a pretty nice +- ratio. Our first line wasnt the problem last year... we just had no defense, no 2nd line, no 3rd line, no 4th line, and our goaltender was unable to win game !

DD will hit 70+ this year. Book it. Next subject ?
They played tougher defensemen. The chart and that method does a poor job of showing differences in forward opposition. That chart also shows they weren't playing all that great forward opposition, which is reinforced by other QoC stats.

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08-17-2012, 10:04 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by seanont View Post
The Habs have not had a great scoring center since Beliveau and finding one is the hardest spot to fill in Hockey.

DD has had one full season as a hab and the truth is you would be hard pressed to find us another center who has played for the Canadians in the past 30 years who had a better first full season. DD is not our long term answer or savor at center but this notion that any center we have would have done better with the same players is just BS because if they could have done better they would have because DD was not suppose to be even on our team as he was signed to be a AHL player to be called up on occasion to help with injuries.
A 5.7 UN-drafted player just doesn't leapfrog to the top center spot by luck.
here our leading centers in goals
Jean Béliveau
507
Jacques Lemaire
366
Henri Richard
358
Howie Morenz
256
Peter Mahovlich
223
Guy Carbonneau
221
Elmer Lach
215
Ralph Backstrom
215
Pierre Mondou
194
Vincent Damphousse
184
I never said we needed a 50 goal center. I said we need a 30 + goal center, badly. And I was not referring to guy Carbonneau types either. I was referring to no. 1-2 Centers. And Carbs would eat DD for lunch on the D game.

Beliveau, Lemaire, and Damphousse were all multiple 30 goal scorers, and sometimes 40 goal scorers.

Beliveau and Lemaire were specifically who I was thinking about. They scored goals, and we won many cups with them. They were truly great centers.

We won a cup with Vinny too. From 92-94, he scored 38, 39 and 40 goals for us.

And you forgot Bobby smith, who scored 30 or more twice for us, including our cup year in 86.

Essentially, almost all Habs cup winning teams since 1955 have featured at least one center with 30-40 goals.

I stand by my argument that this teams needs a consistent no 1-2 30-40 goal center to win cups, not DD.

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08-17-2012, 10:23 PM
  #161
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I never said we needed a 50 goal center. I said we need a 30 + goal center, badly. And I was not referring to guy Carbonneau types either. I was referring to no. 1-2 Centers. And Carbs would eat DD for lunch on the D game.

Beliveau, Lemaire, and Damphousse were all multiple 30 goal scorers, and sometimes 40 goal scorers.

Beliveau and Lemaire were specifically who I was thinking about. They scored goals, and we won many cups with them. They were truly great centers.

We won a cup with Vinny too. From 92-94, he scored 38, 39 and 40 goals for us.

And you forgot Bobby smith, who scored 30 or more twice for us, including our cup year in 86.

Essentially, almost all Habs cup winning since the sixties have featured at least one center with 30-40 goals.
30-40 goals scoring center in 93 is basically a 22-27 goal center now days. That was the highest scoring era and we're in one of the lowest. In 93 there were 22 30 goal centers, this year there were 5.

40 goals in 93 got you 11st place. This year 11st place is at 25 goals.

Same in 86, 20 30 goal centers.

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08-17-2012, 10:24 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Soltantgris View Post
False.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/17/time...r-all-30-teams

DD's line faced tougher opposition, and still managed to finish with a pretty nice +- ratio. Our first line wasnt the problem last year... we just had no defense, no 2nd line, no 3rd line, no 4th line, and our goaltender was unable to win game !

DD will hit 70+ this year. Book it. Next subject ?
Road games.....not the same when you're coach have the last change-up!

DD was +17 at home
But we was -7 on the road

At the same time

Pleky was -15 at home
And +0 on the road

How come Plekanec was suddenly the best player on the team on the road ???
(30 points on the road)

Mayby that line was pure gold at home.....but on the road it's not the same.

Even Pacioretty was -12 on the road.

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08-17-2012, 10:40 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Thornton is an underachiever, one of the greatest in the game's history.

Sedin scores 20 goals and 80 assists, not 20 goals and 40 assists.

Getzlaf? Overrated.
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Thank you for raising your expectations.

What the Habs need of a 1st line center who gets good linemates, disproportionate offensive zone starts, and tons of power play time is simple: 30 goals and 80 points, give or take.
Interesting. The last time the Montreal Canadiens were in the cup final aside from 1993, when Vinny scored 39 goals, was in 1989.

Bobby Smith went 32 51 83 points that year.


Last edited by bsl: 08-17-2012 at 10:53 PM.
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08-18-2012, 12:11 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Road games.....not the same when you're coach have the last change-up!

DD was +17 at home
But we was -7 on the road

At the same time

Pleky was -15 at home
And +0 on the road

How come Plekanec was suddenly the best player on the team on the road ???
(30 points on the road)

Mayby that line was pure gold at home.....but on the road it's not the same.

Even Pacioretty was -12 on the road.
that comparison for me is total BS. The bell center has always been - if not the hardest place to defend- one of the hardest places to play at home. Look at our record at home last year and here is one thing we should work on. Our top line getting shut down away is ''normal'' . what's not normal is the secondary scoring being so low ... that line played its part. If you have a working 2nd line ... you can take off ''some'' of the focus on your 1rst line, and give them slack on the rope.

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08-18-2012, 01:56 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
that comparison for me is total BS. The bell center has always been - if not the hardest place to defend- one of the hardest places to play at home. Look at our record at home last year and here is one thing we should work on. Our top line getting shut down away is ''normal'' . what's not normal is the secondary scoring being so low ... that line played its part. If you have a working 2nd line ... you can take off ''some'' of the focus on your 1rst line, and give them slack on the rope.
Total bull. Look at the Habs home and away records compared to the rest of the conference. Its totally random whether the team will do proportionately better or worse at home compared to other home teams.

The big factor was who had last change, or randomness, not the crowd.

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08-18-2012, 05:05 AM
  #166
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I think a lot of us agree on this...we enjoy watching Desharnais and his crafty/creative style, but we can't keep all of 'em (if we can...great!).


For me it's:
<Plekanec (very fair contract compared to other solid two-way #1b or #2 centers).
<Galchenyuk
<Eller
<Leblanc (top 9 winger/top 9 center...great for center depth in case of injuries)



Desharnais will ask for $4mil/year...but I want to see how well he does in playoffs first (can his 5'6 frame take it?) AND I want to see how he does without Cole and/or Pacioretty (any center can do well with Pacioretty and Cole uh oh! I just got myself in trouble with that comment! I'd love to see how Eller would do with Cole+Pacioretty...same as Pleks). Give Desharnais a harder task...give him Rene ''works so hard'' Bourque!

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08-18-2012, 06:57 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Desharnais will ask for $4mil/year...but I want to see how well he does in playoffs first (can his 5'6 frame take it?) AND I want to see how he does without Cole and/or Pacioretty (any center can do well with Pacioretty and Cole uh oh! I just got myself in trouble with that comment! I'd love to see how Eller would do with Cole+Pacioretty...same as Pleks). Give Desharnais a harder task...give him Rene ''works so hard'' Bourque!
Desharnais did not start his NHL career with Pacioretty and Cole. He produced with limited minutes and limited linemates.

If he hadn't been able to produce without the benefit of good linemates he never would have been given good linemates to begin with.

But DD is a french speaking local and a small center. Perfect combo magnet for irrational knocks and doubts.

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08-18-2012, 07:59 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
that comparison for me is total BS. The bell center has always been - if not the hardest place to defend- one of the hardest places to play at home. Look at our record at home last year and here is one thing we should work on. Our top line getting shut down away is ''normal'' . what's not normal is the secondary scoring being so low ... that line played its part. If you have a working 2nd line ... you can take off ''some'' of the focus on your 1rst line, and give them slack on the rope.
It's not about where you play, it's about against who you play.

At home, they choose the match-up (line) so they put that line against a weaker line.
On the road, they don't choose.....other coachs probably saw that MTL was a one line punch, so they put their best checking line aganst them.

You know the result.

How come 2 of your best players at home , were two of the worst on the road (just behind Gomez and Kaberle)?

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08-18-2012, 08:11 AM
  #169
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Come on people!!!! A center is a policeman on the ice. At any given time he must be able to go to the corners, in front of his own net or the opposition's and help out his teammates. In the NHL you need size to be effective at that. This is not NHL12. You don't have one center who's a sniper, another dangler, and another play maker that somehow magically all works out. Centers are the most important position. You need to be a gritty 2 way player who can win 1 on 1 battles. ON ALL THE LINES!
If Galchenyuk and Eller become what they are suppose to be, then you go Gally, Plecs, Eller as your 3 centers. Desharnais doesn't fit the equation.
For all of you saying it's cause he's french that he gets so much hate, give your head a shake. He's small, slow and has no shot.
If it where up to me for his next contract, I would definitely let him play out this season, on a 2nd line, with 2nd class linemates, and #2 pp duties. If he manages to keep up his production (which I highly doubt) I would then offer him an extension. But to give the guy 20 million$ over what he's accomplished so far would be insane.

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08-18-2012, 08:28 AM
  #170
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Wow! People still doubting DD and thinking that Eller will be a top 6

What would be funny is that they split up Patches and DD, and DD still gets 60+pts while Patches doesn't quite beat his previous year's stats.

I think that will show peeps how out-of this world is Desharnais' vision.

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08-18-2012, 08:29 AM
  #171
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Come on people!!!! A center is a policeman on the ice. At any given time he must be able to go to the corners, in front of his own net or the opposition's and help out his teammates. In the NHL you need size to be effective at that. This is not NHL12. You don't have one center who's a sniper, another dangler, and another play maker that somehow magically all works out. Centers are the most important position. You need to be a gritty 2 way player who can win 1 on 1 battles. ON ALL THE LINES!
If Galchenyuk and Eller become what they are suppose to be, then you go Gally, Plecs, Eller as your 3 centers. Desharnais doesn't fit the equation.
For all of you saying it's cause he's french that he gets so much hate, give your head a shake. He's small, slow and has no shot.
If it where up to me for his next contract, I would definitely let him play out this season, on a 2nd line, with 2nd class linemates, and #2 pp duties. If he manages to keep up his production (which I highly doubt) I would then offer him an extension. But to give the guy 20 million$ over what he's accomplished so far would be insane.

You don't build a good team by trading your best players. I doubt that Desharnais could have much trade value, and he's possibly our best center, probably our best player on the PP and he's also probably a better player than Eler and Leblanc will ever be, while there are big question marks over Galchenyuk.

The job of a good centerman is to be good. Whether he's 6'5 or 5'6, he has to be able to put up points, and to be efficient at controlling the puck and defensively. Something Desharnais has proven he can do. He's actually better at it than Plekanec.

In a few years, if Galchenyuk and Eller become legit top-6 forwards, we'll just have to switch some players from center to the wings.

But more importantly, long term plans never work as you think they will. Eller might bust completely, Plekanec might ask for a trade. We just don't know. But one things for sure, Desharnais' a keeper.

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08-18-2012, 08:35 AM
  #172
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Right now, Desharnais is the type of player who, when given disproportionate PP time, easy forward competition, two 1st line wingers, and tons of offensive zone starts manages to... become the 20th most productive center in the league for points.

That's right, he is 20th among centers in the NHL in spite of all his advantages. If 1st line center was a regular season rank, the Habs wouldn't even make the playoffs. Meanwhile, if you look at the guys above him, they can also contribute on the PK, and they tend to have a much higher goals to assist ratio.Desharnais isn't even top-30 among centers for goals scored. He is in 54th place. Even worse, on average, the 19 centers ahead of Desharnais in points and 53 centers ahead of Desharnais in goals achieved what they did with inferior winger quality to Desharnais.

Fundamentally, we don't need a center who only manages to be 20th in the league for points in spite of a multitude of advantages. If you're going to give a center all those advantages that create imbalances and difficulties that cascade everywhere else in the roster, you need him to be a top-5.


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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Gionta out-goaled cole for the majority the last years, look it up. Entering this season it was expected Gionta would hit 30 goals before Cole or max would.
The only way Gionta hits 30 goals is if he gets sufficient power play time and offensive zone starts to do so. If that happens, Cole and Pacioretty will in turn NOT hit 30 goals assuming they are on different lines.

Power play time and offensive zone starts are a zero-sum game. If one line gets more, the other lines get less.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
And If I gave Eller DD job he wouldn't make 60 points.
Absolutely no evidence for that claim.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not to say it's as extreme as the example I gave but Eller isn't a top 6 center, not yet and maybe not ever.
But at the very least Eller is an effective 3rd line center.

Desharnais is not an effective 1st line center. He is 20th in the league in that role in spite of having a multitude of advantages.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
What do you suggest, tanking? Well, you did make a thread about it so yes, it is. I also want a top pick but again, whats this have to do with DD? If you REALLY want to tank trade plekanec, this team will crumble.
Plekanec should be traded if we receive a great offer, same as every other player on the team.

However, I'll note that my goal is to see a stanley cup contender. You can have a contender with Plekanec as your 2nd line center. You cannot have a contender with Desharnais as your 1st line center.

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08-18-2012, 08:42 AM
  #173
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You don't build a good team by trading your best players. I doubt that Desharnais could have much trade value, and he's possibly our best center, probably our best player on the PP and he's also probably a better player than Eler and Leblanc will ever be, while there are big question marks over Galchenyuk.
You believe that Desharnais is one of our best players, and that he has no trade value.


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08-18-2012, 08:54 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You believe that Desharnais is one of our best players, and that he has no trade value.

Why would good players have trade value?

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08-18-2012, 10:35 AM
  #175
durojean
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 944
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Usually weaker opposition means other opponents shutdown line. The Desharnais line still produced against them.

Desharnais was playing his first complete season in the nhl... Please, just please give him some slack. He's a good player and he's still adjusting.

We also can win a stanley cup with Desharnais as our second line center. The fact is Plekanec or Desharnais should be 2 line center in a good team but I also give the edge to Desharnais for first line.

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