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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
08-17-2012, 01:15 PM
  #101
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Hmm sounds cool

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08-17-2012, 03:12 PM
  #102
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Donald Fehr held a conference call today nothing really groundbreaking was said but here are some tweets summing it up for you guys:

Multiple Jesse Spector tweets in one quote:

Quote:
Don Fehr, on conference call, says he hasn't spoken to Gary Bettman since Wednesday, but expects to over the weekend.. Fehr: Players' proposal calls for $100M a year to "Industry Growth Fund" to help teams in distress.. Don Fehr's reply to reporters question on whether he is receiving pressure from players worried about missing games: "No." Fehr calls non-financial discussions "workmanlike ... which you absolutely have to have." Fehr irritated with question about NFL/NBA being closer to 50/50 than 57%. Says revenue is not calculated the same way "even remotely." Fehr talks about baseball's lack of cap, rising franchise values and long-term labor stability as counter to comparison to NBA/NFL. Fehr: "I wish I knew the answer" on lockout. If one happens, it's "something (the owners) chose to do." Fehr: Reason we have a salary cap is, and owners agree, salary cap pays players less than free market would. Don Fehr: "There are no caps on what a GM gets paid, coaches, ticket prices. The only place where there's a cap is on the players."
Aaron Ward:

Quote:
On NHLPA conference call, Don Fehr uses term "gulf between us" to describe where they are after both sides have offered proposals. #TSN Bottom line is NHL wants response to their proposal,NHLPA feels their proposal is proactive,addresses problems as they see it. #stalemate

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08-17-2012, 09:51 PM
  #103
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You gotta remember that Grange and the guys at SportsNet / Bob McCowan's crew (of which he's one) are all incredibly Toronto-oriented and don't know squat about the Isles real situation.

Just a couple nights ago they were talking about how the "situation in Long Island" is hopeless and the area could never support a team (with or without a new building)
They're right. LI proper (nassau/suffolk) can't support a team new building or not and as this article points out it's not worth it even with a new building.

New Islanders Arena Won’t Mean New Money For Nassau*County

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/...nassau-county/

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08-18-2012, 07:15 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
They're right. LI proper (nassau/suffolk) can't support a team new building or not and as this article points out it's not worth it even with a new building.

New Islanders Arena Won’t Mean New Money For Nassau*County

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/...nassau-county/
The article completely ignored the County's portion of sales tax revenues which makes it practically worthless as a real estimation. (Unless I missed it somewhere.) There's also more than a few other variables that have been ignored.

A better question to pose would have been to figure out if the building paid for itself and how many years (assuming it did) did it take? Was the NVMC a good investment? I'd love to know the answer to that.

Along with the missing sales tax revenues being included, let's also remember that there's a certain amount of prestige involved with having a pro sports team that needs to be accounted for. Those four Stanley Cups obviously had some kind of positive effect on the area and should not be ignored.

I think it's safe to say that it's very unlikely we'll see that kind of success again, but who is to say that a high caliber team and new building couldn't help revitalize the area to some degree? (Most importantly, what kind of outside dollars would a new building and successful team bring?)

Having said all of that, I'm not really disagreeing with the concept that buildings like these can often end up being losing propositions for the municipality. However, it's not easy to really measure the full positive effect of having the team and it's easy to ignore hard to measure variables. Unfortunately, it's also hard to measure the true loss to the County in the case of losing the team. In the case of the loss, we also have to end up measuring what (if anything) the County gains by the loss from whatever alternative development goes up there.

...ad nauseam.

,
Mitch

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Old
08-18-2012, 08:50 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
They're right. LI proper (nassau/suffolk) can't support a team new building or not and as this article points out it's not worth it even with a new building.

New Islanders Arena Won’t Mean New Money For Nassau*County

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/...nassau-county/
My point is that the larger affluent suburban population of NYC and the number of businesses in LI and NYC area by far dwarf Saskatoon and QC.

With a new/reno building and a decent team, the Isles can certainly be successful there, esp. with the ~$30M cable deal, which will be at least 10x bigger than whatever local cable deal is available in those two centres.

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08-18-2012, 10:41 AM
  #106
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I agree..if you build it they will come 8-). Also, when the team actually improves, the fans will come out of the woodwork.

The Devils would be in a similar spot if they hadn't had such a good run of 20 decent years. They SUCKED in the 80's and no one thought they'd make it out alive.

Toronto would have been down and out if it weren't for it being in Canada and such a large city full of hockey culture. I would have been a Toronto fan, but the combination of the Leafs bad play and their own (at that time Harold Ballard), I chose the Islanders.

The funny thing is..I remember checking attendance for the Nordique's games in the 80's..they averaged over 15k per game if I remember correctly which is not bad at all, especially at that time where arenas could only hold 14-19k.

Anyone got any contacts in Facebook..because they got money for a new arena 8-) Facebook Coliseum anyone? 8-)

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08-18-2012, 11:47 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
My point is that the larger affluent suburban population of NYC and the number of businesses in LI and NYC area by far dwarf Saskatoon and QC.

With a new/reno building and a decent team, the Isles can certainly be successful there, esp. with the ~$30M cable deal, which will be at least 10x bigger than whatever local cable deal is available in those two centres.
Population/income size means nothing if people aren't interested as LI has shown the last 30 years. Maybe in Brooklyn/Queens it would be different but not LI proper and their lack of fan/corporate support. Maybe Quebec gets revenue sharing? Maybe QC has less expenses than LI. They left Winnipeg and went back. QC is not impossible.

You can't just say with a new/reno building and a decent team, the Isles can certainly be successful. Prove it. Give numbers, facts and examples like the article did. Back it up otherwise it's just wishfull thinking. Can't get decent without revenue.

The cable deal means nothing if expenses are higher than revenues as they've been forever. Even with the TV deal NYI is last in revenue. A new arena with no corporate support won't change that much.

A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They’d still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they’re small market. The money just isn’t there and the revenue streams wouldn’t be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes, club seating etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs- Caps, Lakers, Cavs, Kings)

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08-18-2012, 11:58 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
The article completely ignored the County's portion of sales tax revenues which makes it practically worthless as a real estimation. (Unless I missed it somewhere.) There's also more than a few other variables that have been ignored.

A better question to pose would have been to figure out if the building paid for itself and how many years (assuming it did) did it take? Was the NVMC a good investment? I'd love to know the answer to that.

Along with the missing sales tax revenues being included, let's also remember that there's a certain amount of prestige involved with having a pro sports team that needs to be accounted for. Those four Stanley Cups obviously had some kind of positive effect on the area and should not be ignored.

I think it's safe to say that it's very unlikely we'll see that kind of success again, but who is to say that a high caliber team and new building couldn't help revitalize the area to some degree? (Most importantly, what kind of outside dollars would a new building and successful team bring?)

Having said all of that, I'm not really disagreeing with the concept that buildings like these can often end up being losing propositions for the municipality. However, it's not easy to really measure the full positive effect of having the team and it's easy to ignore hard to measure variables. Unfortunately, it's also hard to measure the true loss to the County in the case of losing the team. In the case of the loss, we also have to end up measuring what (if anything) the County gains by the loss from whatever alternative development goes up there.

...ad nauseam.

,
Mitch
Sales tax on what? Tickets? Concessions, parking? The article mentioned them. Is that number really significant enough to matter and be a difference maker? How has it been for the last 30 years? I heard nassau loses money on NVMC and that's with spending nothing on it for upkeep. It's why they don't care if NYI leave and are considering the biotech reserach stuff to replace it.


Prestige? After 4 cups what has nassau done to ensure prestige the last 30 years? Would that be the asbestos, leaky roof, burst pipes or something else?

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Old
08-18-2012, 02:23 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
The article completely ignored the County's portion of sales tax revenues which makes it practically worthless as a real estimation. (Unless I missed it somewhere.) There's also more than a few other variables that have been ignored.

A better question to pose would have been to figure out if the building paid for itself and how many years (assuming it did) did it take? Was the NVMC a good investment? I'd love to know the answer to that.

Along with the missing sales tax revenues being included, let's also remember that there's a certain amount of prestige involved with having a pro sports team that needs to be accounted for. Those four Stanley Cups obviously had some kind of positive effect on the area and should not be ignored.

I think it's safe to say that it's very unlikely we'll see that kind of success again, but who is to say that a high caliber team and new building couldn't help revitalize the area to some degree? (Most importantly, what kind of outside dollars would a new building and successful team bring?)

Having said all of that, I'm not really disagreeing with the concept that buildings like these can often end up being losing propositions for the municipality. However, it's not easy to really measure the full positive effect of having the team and it's easy to ignore hard to measure variables. Unfortunately, it's also hard to measure the true loss to the County in the case of losing the team. In the case of the loss, we also have to end up measuring what (if anything) the County gains by the loss from whatever alternative development goes up there.

...ad nauseam.

,
Mitch
The biological facilities and housing will be the driving force behind local sales to surrounding businesses. That means, in essence, moving 10,000 buyers of your goods and services two to three nights a week away for good. Then that means millions in sales tax revenues disappear. That means businesses close down in time, meaning even more tax revenue dries up. It means taxes go up even more, so people vacate and the house prices drop significantly, meaning lower property tax collections. Which means services drop, so layoffs begin. Which means......

Let's just say the aim should be to INCREASE spending on local businesses. This is one key thing about the LHP I supported (not the huge size and cost of schools and roads hitting taxpayers). Wanna get LI out of a recession? Spend locally. (and for GOD'S SAKE! Stop buying stuff at WalMart!)

This rationale is why I would LOVE for Suffolk to be the #2 choice if Nassau screws the pooch (I doubt they will). Long Island, whether you believe in trickle down eco or not, would benefit by making people spend locally.

One tiny caveat, Mr. B.Wang: THE TEAM CAN'T SUCK FOREVER FOR THIS TO HAVE A MEASURABLE EFFECT! Go get a real GM, boy! Go! GO!!!

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Old
08-20-2012, 11:20 AM
  #110
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Population/income size means nothing if people aren't interested as LI has shown the last 30 years.

Go to any rink in Long Island. People wearing Ranger Merchandise out numbers Islander Merchandiser 2:1.

I have been to 2 parties in Long Island over the summer talking hockey to people, very few were Islander fans.

The majority of the long Island population could give a rats ass about the Isles

Brooklyn is our best hope

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08-20-2012, 12:21 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon Asher View Post
Population/income size means nothing if people aren't interested as LI has shown the last 30 years.

Go to any rink in Long Island. People wearing Ranger Merchandise out numbers Islander Merchandiser 2:1.

I have been to 2 parties in Long Island over the summer talking hockey to people, very few were Islander fans.

The majority of the long Island population could give a rats ass about the Isles

Brooklyn is our best hope
No, WINNING is our best hope. A joke in Queens/Brooklyn (Ranger Country) won't do anything but bring the punchline to their neighborhood. Yet a winning team in Uniondale, Commack, Flushing or Atlantic Yards will draw interest. You have to WIN.

Now, having said that, the way to WIN is to go where the MONEY IS.

That means Wang sells to Brooklyn's Ratner or he makes less money than in Nassau. Wang sells to Wilpon or he makes less money in Queens. Wang gets a partner and goes to a Queens or Suffolk locale and he'll be alright (NO WAY can he afford to partner with Ratner! What did the building cost and how much more to retrofit the rink dimensions - if they ever decide to make a perfect basketball arena into a hockey arena too?).

So that leaves Nassau - fix the building or build new, Wang can stand alone as owner. So.....does Wang sell or partner or does he stay in Nassau? By the look of the new seats and modest improvements done for free (as far as Wang is concerned, aside from the lockerroom, he's getting Nassau to pay the money they should have long ago), it looks like Nassau.....but does it look like a winning team?

Only if the rookies pan out - or Snow quits.

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:18 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon Asher View Post
Population/income size means nothing if people aren't interested as LI has shown the last 30 years.

Go to any rink in Long Island. People wearing Ranger Merchandise out numbers Islander Merchandiser 2:1.

I have been to 2 parties in Long Island over the summer talking hockey to people, very few were Islander fans.

The majority of the long Island population could give a rats ass about the Isles

Brooklyn is our best hope
Exactly.

Brooklyn is the ONLY hope. Can't win without revenue. Just see the revenue thread to know NYI doesn't have enough revenue on LI to compete and get fans attention.

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Old
08-20-2012, 04:59 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon Asher View Post
Population/income size means nothing if people aren't interested as LI has shown the last 30 years.

Go to any rink in Long Island. People wearing Ranger Merchandise out numbers Islander Merchandiser 2:1.

I have been to 2 parties in Long Island over the summer talking hockey to people, very few were Islander fans.

The majority of the long Island population could give a rats ass about the Isles

Brooklyn is our best hope
You have to put a winning product on the ice. OTH and I may not agree on much, but you have to win to ***** in seats unless you're in Toronto. 20+ years of mostly losing tries the patience of paying customers.

If you win, with a new building to cash in the extra bodies, Nassau works. If you in and own the team in Brooklyn, it works. Losing in either place won't work. Renting in Brooklyn doesn't work. Paying out of pocket to renovate the Coli doesn't work.

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08-21-2012, 12:48 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
You have to put a winning product on the ice. OTH and I may not agree on much, but you have to win to ***** in seats unless you're in Toronto. 20+ years of mostly losing tries the patience of paying customers.

If you win, with a new building to cash in the extra bodies, Nassau works. If you in and own the team in Brooklyn, it works. Losing in either place won't work. Renting in Brooklyn doesn't work. Paying out of pocket to renovate the Coli doesn't work.
Paying out of pocket if you run the team like Mike Ilitch works. He owns the whole area, now.

"To succeed in business.....you have to not suck."
- Dale Carnegie

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08-21-2012, 12:57 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
You have to put a winning product on the ice. OTH and I may not agree on much, but you have to win to ***** in seats unless you're in Toronto. 20+ years of mostly losing tries the patience of paying customers.

If you win, with a new building to cash in the extra bodies, Nassau works. If you in and own the team in Brooklyn, it works. Losing in either place won't work. Renting in Brooklyn doesn't work. Paying out of pocket to renovate the Coli doesn't work.
This oversimplification of winning solving all is mind numbing. No team wins all the time. What happens during average or losing years? Then what? That's where steady revenue from corporate support etc and broader fan base takes over. That possibly happens in Brooklyn NOT nassau.

Unless you're in Toronto, Montreal, Philly, NYR and a few others you need additional revenue during down times. And revenue is more than fans in seats. It's corporate support, luxury box sales, club seating sales, media revenue etc. Again, you can't win without revenue in the first place as NYI have shown for 20 years.

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08-21-2012, 01:56 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
Sales tax on what? Tickets? Concessions, parking? The article mentioned them. Is that number really significant enough to matter and be a difference maker? How has it been for the last 30 years? I heard nassau loses money on NVMC and that's with spending nothing on it for upkeep. It's why they don't care if NYI leave and are considering the biotech reserach stuff to replace it.


Prestige? After 4 cups what has nassau done to ensure prestige the last 30 years? Would that be the asbestos, leaky roof, burst pipes or something else?
I'm not talking about restoring the prestige or the problems with the building. I'm talking about the positive effects while the prestige was still in place. I'm talking about the benefits of having a successful local team and a local venue for events for that period of time. The last part of your post doesn't have anything to do with what I'm discussing.

The article mentioned a surcharge, not the benefits of sales taxes relating to the team. So that portion of the sales tax which goes to the County on anything Islanders related or brought in by the team existing doesn't appear to be entirely accounted for.

Did the team winning those cups and "putting Long Island on the map" have nothing to do with who moved out to Long Island? What businesses moved out to Long Island at that time? What investments moved out to Long Island? What about businesses moving to Nassau that realized it wasn't a rural area? (I'm not just discussing the area adjacent to NVMC.)

Look, the reason why Long Island sucks is the cost of living/doing business on land and, IMHO, the massive amounts of nerve poisons we've used over a serious amount of years.

I'm sorry, but that article really wasn't an accurate cost-benefit analysis of the County owning the NVMC and the Islanders being its main tenant. The article is missing far too much information. That was my point. And yes, related sales tax revenue to having a sports and entertainment complex and pro sports team within Nassau County is missing. The benefits to the populace of having the venue there is missing.

,
Mitch


Last edited by mitchy22: 08-21-2012 at 02:02 AM. Reason: fixed some issues
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08-21-2012, 08:08 AM
  #117
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Why are posters discussing the future location of the team in the 2012 CBA Discussion thread?

Some posters have such one track minds its unreal.

Are we playing hockey this fall or not? Any updates?

They announced there would be a ruling on Lubby's grievance on 9/4/12, what does that mean in regards to the CBA.

Will talks be mostly completed by then, are the two sides so far it doesn't matter?

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08-21-2012, 11:57 AM
  #118
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I know its kind of intertwined but lets focus mostly on the CBA here.

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08-22-2012, 01:25 PM
  #119
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I'm thinking there is gonna be a lockout again this year, but by December it should be done. There is too much to cover and there are some fundamental issues that aren't being seen eye to eye.

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08-22-2012, 02:38 PM
  #120
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I'm thinking there is gonna be a lockout again this year, but by December it should be done. There is too much to cover and there are some fundamental issues that aren't being seen eye to eye.
iT SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS ALOT TO COVER FROM WHAT I BEEN HEARING. THE SIDES WERE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO EACH OTHER IN THERE PROPOSALS TO EACH OTHER

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08-22-2012, 02:52 PM
  #121
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If there is a lock out doesn't this all have to fall on Bettman? I can't see how a lockout would be good for the league or the game in general. Isn't it his job to ensure the long run success of this league? Can they take another hit?

Admittedly I have probably not followed as much as many of you so please tell me if you disagree with my perceptions on this but it seems like in a nutshell the owners put a ridiculous proposal out there and the players came back with something that could be worked with, starting by giving some concessions on the revenue split. the owners took the players to town last time and looks like they are trying to break the players again. All this at a time when this league should be doing everything to maintain its current base and promote themselves in a positive light as much as they can.. they don't exactly have the following of the NFL so there is plenty of room for growth.

the fact that they are still so far apart seems to bode poorly, I can't believe that this could happen again but it seems more and more likely that it will drag on.

C'mon Bettman let's be reasonable, get your house in order and let's play some hockey...

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08-22-2012, 03:04 PM
  #122
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Multiple lockouts under Bettman will not look good at all. If the players and owners are this far apart on issues I do not understand why negotiations did not begin sooner, can anyone shed light on that, why they began so late?

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08-22-2012, 06:24 PM
  #123
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I was thinking the same thing about starting so late, but I believe it takes quite a bit of time for negotiations between the players. They can't have these meetings and do a full schedule at the same time. There should be a more efficient way of doing this too.

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08-22-2012, 06:26 PM
  #124
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Multiple lockouts under Bettman will not look good at all. If the players and owners are this far apart on issues I do not understand why negotiations did not begin sooner, can anyone shed light on that, why they began so late?
Because no one does anything without a deadline breathing down their neck.

Bettman doesn't care how he looks, he cares about doing the owners' bidding and getting paid for getting them what they want. To date, he's been pretty successful at that.

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08-22-2012, 07:13 PM
  #125
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I know I've said it before but I will say it again; These sides should be meeting around the clock. None of this 2-3 hours meeting BS that they've been pulling. The lockout date is 3 weeks away. Absolutely BS!!!

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