HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Pittsburgh - Colorado

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-18-2012, 01:52 PM
  #76
Zen Arcade
eat the record cover
 
Zen Arcade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 13,973
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'd swap TK out for McGinn in a flash (comparable offense, bigger, more physical), but I can understand why he's more valuable to Colorado than anyone right now.
If we're talking third liner for third liner, sure. Some people seem to think he'd be a longterm winger solution, I don't. I still support the idea of moving Kennedy for a more physical/defensive player and running a true shutdown line anchored by Sutter.

Zen Arcade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #77
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,898
vCash: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
You guys started it by bringing up Simon Despres.
In what realm is Despres and Landeskog comparable? We have a need, it isn't Martin, it's someone like Despres. Why should we move a top 4 d and potential top 6 winger for assets we don't need?

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:03 PM
  #78
MichiganWolverines
Big Mac Attack
 
MichiganWolverines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
In what realm is Despres and Landeskog comparable? We have a need, it isn't Martin, it's someone like Despres. Why should we move a top 4 d and potential top 6 winger for assets we don't need?
I wouldn't trade Simon Despres alone for Jamie McGinn and Jan Hejda he's our best prospect besides Joe Morrow. By the way they are assets that you need because when I went onto the organization report you guys said that you wanted a top pairing defenceman and a bottom-6 forward. So that's what I purposed.

MichiganWolverines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:06 PM
  #79
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,898
vCash: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
I wouldn't trade Simon Despres alone for Jamie McGinn and Jan Hejda he's our best prospect besides Joe Morrow. By the way they are assets that you need because when I went onto the organization report you guys said that you wanted a top pairing defenceman and a bottom-6 forward. So that's what I purposed.
Paul Martin is not equal to a top pairing defenceman, but by all means, use him in that capacity and let me know how it goes.

And we're not moving McGinn for bottom 6 help, which we don't need in my opinion.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:10 PM
  #80
MichiganWolverines
Big Mac Attack
 
MichiganWolverines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Paul Martin is not equal to a top pairing defenceman, but by all means, use him in that capacity and let me know how it goes.

And we're not moving McGinn for bottom 6 help, which we don't need in my opinion.
Just because he had one bad year doesn't mean that he's not a top pairing defenceman.

MichiganWolverines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:11 PM
  #81
Ivan13
Avs/Habs fan
 
Ivan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 13,478
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
I wouldn't trade Simon Despres alone for Jamie McGinn and Jan Hejda he's our best prospect besides Joe Morrow. By the way they are assets that you need because when I went onto the organization report you guys said that you wanted a top pairing defenceman and a bottom-6 forward. So that's what I purposed.
Martin isn't a 1st pairing d-man and Avs have enough of bottom 6 forwards, but I guess you're more familiar with our teams needs than we are.

Ivan13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:11 PM
  #82
Zen Arcade
eat the record cover
 
Zen Arcade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 13,973
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Paul Martin is not equal to a top pairing defenceman, but by all means, use him in that capacity and let me know how it goes.
He played in that capacity for the better part of the past 7 years. But yeah, he did have a bad year last year so he's basically a healthy scratch in the AHL.

Zen Arcade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:11 PM
  #83
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,898
vCash: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Just because he had one bad year doesn't mean that he's not a top pairing defenceman.
He never was a top pairing defender, he's always been a good #3 that plays #2 minutes in a pinch and their clubs are worse off for it.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:20 PM
  #84
avsman
Registered User
 
avsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
He never was a top pairing defender, he's always been a good #3 that plays #2 minutes in a pinch and their clubs are worse off for it.
Exactly what i was gonna say

avsman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:28 PM
  #85
Pure
Registered User
 
Pure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,942
vCash: 665
The value isn't bad, but I don't think it fits the Avs' needs unless Sherman truly believes Martin can return to his top pairing form. Seems like a Sherman buy low sell high kinda trade.

Pure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 02:56 PM
  #86
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Golden Swallow
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
He never was a top pairing defender, he's always been a good #3 that plays #2 minutes in a pinch and their clubs are worse off for it.
Criticizing Martin based on last year is understandable, but you either have a funny definition of a top-pairing defenseman where icetime is concerned, or you haven't checked out Martin's minutes relative to other defensemen around the league.

He's often in the top 30 of all defensemen in terms of TOI/G, and never far outside the top 30. There are 30 teams in the NHL. He hasn't played top-pairing minutes "in a pinch". He's consistently played top-pairing minutes every year for the last half-decade plus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
If we're talking third liner for third liner, sure. Some people seem to think he'd be a longterm winger solution, I don't. I still support the idea of moving Kennedy for a more physical/defensive player and running a true shutdown line anchored by Sutter.
I think he has that potential. But it all comes back to him already having found chemistry in Colorado, and consequently being more valuable to the Avs than anyone else.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 03:20 PM
  #87
BrickAHL
#NotUs
 
BrickAHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,819
vCash: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
No, he isn't.

I don't like this deal, because we haven't really seen what McGinn is capable of (though I doubt he's replaceable by Kennedy) and I think trading Hejda for anything other than a defensive defenseman would be a very big mistake.
Stop lying.

BrickAHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 03:29 PM
  #88
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,898
vCash: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Criticizing Martin based on last year is understandable, but you either have a funny definition of a top-pairing defenseman where icetime is concerned, or you haven't checked out Martin's minutes relative to other defensemen around the league.

He's often in the top 30 of all defensemen in terms of TOI/G, and never far outside the top 30. There are 30 teams in the NHL. He hasn't played top-pairing minutes "in a pinch". He's consistently played top-pairing minutes every year for the last half-decade plus.
Oh, so we're using TOI/G to decide whether someone is a top pairing defender or not?Beauchemin for Norris everyone.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 03:37 PM
  #89
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Golden Swallow
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Oh, so we're using TOI/G to decide whether someone is a top pairing defender or not?Beauchemin for Norris everyone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

I never once said that the more minutes you play, the better defenseman you are.

You said Martin has been a #3 who played #2 minutes in a pinch. That's clearly false. He plays top-pairing minutes regularly, not just "in a pinch".

Martin was below average for most of last year and downright terrible for parts of it, especially in the playoffs. Hate him for that...I do. But don't patently make things up.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 03:45 PM
  #90
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,898
vCash: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

I never once said that the more minutes you play, the better defenseman you are.

You said Martin has been a #3 who played #2 minutes in a pinch. That's clearly false. He plays top-pairing minutes regularly, not just "in a pinch".

Martin was below average for most of last year and downright terrible for parts of it, especially in the playoffs. Hate him for that...I do. But don't patently make things up.
Whether he plays more minutes or not really doesn't clarify him as being better than a #3 either.

Tell me, how many teams has he been a part of where there was even an argument he shouldn't be playing more minutes? Rafalski in 06-07 for the Devils and Letang for the Penguins. Quite simply put, Martin has never been on a team where he is a luxury 2nd pairing defender since before the lockout.

But that doesn't make him a top pairing defender, it makes him a good #3 being used as a #2 in a pinch, because there are no better options.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 03:54 PM
  #91
Nihiliste
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Nihiliste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,408
vCash: 542
IDK I think Martin would make the Avs better. I have no real interest in Kennedy though, nor do I think the Avs would move Mcginn so soon (even though I'm not really convinced he's a convincing upgrade over Kennedy). He's a good defender who seems to have been a bad fit in Pittsburgh. I think he'd be able to play freely in Colorado and might look good along with EJ.

Some posters seemed receptive to a Hejda for Martin trade, I would do that in a heartbeat despite his contract. Doubt the Pens would though.

OP isn't nearly as bad as some posters are making it out to be; these may not be the right pieces for the Avs but the OP attempted to make a fair proposal with balanced value and I don't think he's far off the mark.

Nihiliste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 04:00 PM
  #92
Flat Stanley
Registered User
 
Flat Stanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,205
vCash: 500
Paul Martin is not a top pairing defenseman, but he can play there if there is a much better defenseman next to him. Martin had a bad year last year but he's been a solid player throughout his career.

To add on to what I said about Martin being a top pairing defenseman, you don't look at him and say "he's a top pairing guy" but he can play that role if you need him to if it fits your lineup. Like right now for the Penguins, we have Letang, Orpik, Martin, Niskanen and Engelland starting on D next season. They are moving Niskanen to the #4 spot and Orpik has played #3 next to Michalek last season. Orpik may be the better option on a pair with Niskanen than Martin would be. Now there is the top pairing spot next to Letang, Paul Martin can play on the top pair with Letang, giving the chance for Simon Despres to improve and maybe take that role in the future.

So the Penguins really can't trade Martin, and they won't until some prospects are ready for the NHL.

Flat Stanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 04:22 PM
  #93
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Golden Swallow
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
But that doesn't make him a top pairing defender, it makes him a good #3 being used as a #2 in a pinch, because there are no better options.
No. Nobody needs to play their #2 defenseman 23 minutes a night. Some teams don't even play their #1 that much, never mind that the Pens had a line-up that also included Michalek, who played the most minutes on Phoenix's blueline before coming over in 2010.

In 2010, Team USA's coach and GM had this to say about his injury and loss to the team:

Quote:
Martin, when healthy, was looking like the best blueliner for Team USA. It's a big hole to fill.

"We lose, had he played all season long, our most reliable defenseman, I would think. He can play in every situation," said Wilson.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/blog/_/name/l...mike-komisarek

Quote:
“He’s one of the best defensemen the U.S. has”
http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/f...ympic_chances/

Martin then became a UFA that summer, got paid like a top-pairing defenseman, and was being sought at that price by multiple other teams.

Your argument about Martin not being a top-pairing defenseman since the lockout - apart from last year - just doesn't hold any water. You have nothing to support your opinion.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 04:34 PM
  #94
Muffin
Avalanche Flavoured
 
Muffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,642
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No. Nobody needs to play their #2 defenseman 23 minutes a night. Some teams don't even play their #1 that much, never mind that the Pens had a line-up that also included Michalek, who played the most minutes on Phoenix's blueline before coming over in 2010.

In 2010, Team USA's coach and GM had this to say about his injury and loss to the team:



http://espn.go.com/nhl/blog/_/name/l...mike-komisarek



http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/f...ympic_chances/

Martin then became a UFA that summer, got paid like a top-pairing defenseman, and was being sought at that price by multiple other teams.

Your argument about Martin not being a top-pairing defenseman since the lockout - apart from last year - just doesn't hold any water. You have nothing to support your opinion.
They also chose Komisarek to play for team USA, they must be pretty good at evaluating talent.

Muffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 04:43 PM
  #95
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Golden Swallow
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
They also chose Komisarek to play for team USA, they must be pretty good at evaluating talent.
Komisarek was worthy of a Team USA selection based on his seasons with the Habs, and suggesting otherwise is revisionist history.

The fact that Komisarek sucks balls now, or that nobody would pick Martin for a national team based on last season, is completely beside the point.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 05:54 PM
  #96
Pure
Registered User
 
Pure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,942
vCash: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
IDK I think Martin would make the Avs better. I have no real interest in Kennedy though, nor do I think the Avs would move Mcginn so soon (even though I'm not really convinced he's a convincing upgrade over Kennedy). He's a good defender who seems to have been a bad fit in Pittsburgh. I think he'd be able to play freely in Colorado and might look good along with EJ.

Some posters seemed receptive to a Hejda for Martin trade, I would do that in a heartbeat despite his contract. Doubt the Pens would though.

OP isn't nearly as bad as some posters are making it out to be; these may not be the right pieces for the Avs but the OP attempted to make a fair proposal with balanced value and I don't think he's far off the mark.
Basically the same way I feel. I really like our acquisition of McGinn but to say hes a top six player at this point is pushing it. He does have that talent and potential, the same way that Martin could potentially return to his days with the Devils. That being said, Hejda is an underrated piece IMO, he was one of the key reasons why our defence improved last year and made life a little easier for Varly. I'd do this trade if we switch Hejda to O'Brien.

Pure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 06:03 PM
  #97
Zen Arcade
eat the record cover
 
Zen Arcade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 13,973
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Basically the same way I feel. I really like our acquisition of McGinn but to say hes a top six player at this point is pushing it. He does have that talent and potential, the same way that Martin could potentially return to his days with the Devils. That being said, Hejda is an underrated piece IMO, he was one of the key reasons why our defence improved last year and made life a little easier for Varly. I'd do this trade if we switch Hejda to O'Brien.
The Pens really have no use for O'Brien. They already have Engelland, who brings the same skillset at almost 1/4th of the cap hit.

Zen Arcade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 06:08 PM
  #98
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Golden Swallow
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41,810
vCash: 500
The Pens really have no use for any defenseman that's not a clear upgrade over Michalek, tbh. I don't think people are processing that we just dealt Michalek, and have a bunch of cheap, solid defense prospects knocking at the door.

We made a pitch for Suter because he represented a clear upgrade. That doesn't mean we're looking to take on any old defenseman.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 07:04 PM
  #99
SteenMachine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fenton, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 4,142
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfisher6 View Post
We're not even done with page 2!
I told you

SteenMachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2012, 10:16 PM
  #100
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 10,898
vCash: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No. Nobody needs to play their #2 defenseman 23 minutes a night. Some teams don't even play their #1 that much, never mind that the Pens had a line-up that also included Michalek, who played the most minutes on Phoenix's blueline before coming over in 2010.

In 2010, Team USA's coach and GM had this to say about his injury and loss to the team:



http://espn.go.com/nhl/blog/_/name/l...mike-komisarek



http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/f...ympic_chances/

Martin then became a UFA that summer, got paid like a top-pairing defenseman, and was being sought at that price by multiple other teams.

Your argument about Martin not being a top-pairing defenseman since the lockout - apart from last year - just doesn't hold any water. You have nothing to support your opinion.
I guess it's surprising these days that a teammate would have something good to say about another teammate...

And to say Martin would have been the best is silly, Rafalski wasn't just the best US defender, he was the best Olympic defender in the entire tournament.

TOI/G is not a statistic which can be used to quantify someone's playing ability. It simply is not. Just because someone plays a lot doesn't mean they are good. Just because someone plays a little doesn't mean they are bad. If someone gets more PP than PK minutes that doesn't mean they are bad defensively.

It is an extremely relative statistic based on the team, the year, the individual season a player was having, the coach, prior injuries and a dozen more possibilities. The mere fact you're trying to claim that because Martin played a lot of minutes on several teams which had mediocre at best defenders is like saying Tom Gilbert is a top pairing defender because he played 24 minutes per game with Edmonton/Minnesota.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:40 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.