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Old
08-18-2012, 11:27 AM
  #226
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by pooleboy View Post
Lol if burke traded kadri for anything less than a bonifide #1 starter I would be dissapointed. Niemi isn't much of an upgrade if at all over Reimer, + his chicago team wqas amazing...
So if Niemi isn't much if at all an upgrade on Reimer, and Luongo isn't much if at all an upgrade on Niemi, then...

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08-18-2012, 11:31 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So if [B]Niemi isn't much if at all an upgrade on Reimer[/B], and Luongo isn't much if at all an upgrade on Niemi, then...
bolded statement is true

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08-18-2012, 12:35 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So if Niemi isn't much if at all an upgrade on Reimer, and Luongo isn't much if at all an upgrade on Niemi, then...
When will you get that your trade proposal was absolutely horrible, Luongo is not that big of an upgrade over Niemi when you take in consideration the contract, Sharks won't pay near that much for a goalie. And in any case, why would we give you guys Boyle for such a bad return?

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08-18-2012, 01:07 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by IBLEAF View Post
bolded statement is true
Is any goalie in the eyes of a Leafs fan? Realistically every goalie, available or not, I have seen Leaf fans (80% IMO) say that said goalie is Marginally better then Reimer. If said statement is true, then why even state a goalie is needed in Toronto?

Now I believe Toronto needs a goalie. Reimer is good, but I think he was unfairly pushed into a position before he was able to adjust to the game here. He needed a little more time to develop. But you never know this year he might be huge.

Also I don't see a need for Toronto to be in this trade. Kadri + Ashton + 2nd is what LifeLeafer claimed as a fair deal for Lou (I respect his opinion and believe that is fair value.) Now Niemi isn't as good but does not need to be moved from SJ, is cap friendlier, and SJ is happy with him. Meaning from him to move from SJ would require more than Lou. So getting Niemi simply just for Kadri is a steal. No matter the upside from Kadri (upside being key here due to lack of NHL experience).

This trade is a benefit to Vancouver hence to homer trade, Toronto gambles both on moving Kadri and gambles on Niemi becoming Toskala 2.0, and SJ gets it dry. SJ definitely says no, and Toronto can arguably says no.

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08-18-2012, 03:56 PM
  #230
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I think Niemi would be a nice fit for Toronto, he is strong mentally and would probably handle the pressure coming from media etc really well. I wouldn't trade him yet though... At least not for Kadri who is still very unproven.

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08-18-2012, 04:04 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Is any goalie in the eyes of a Leafs fan? Realistically every goalie, available or not, I have seen Leaf fans (80% IMO) say that said goalie is Marginally better then Reimer. If said statement is true, then why even state a goalie is needed in Toronto?

Now I believe Toronto needs a goalie. Reimer is good, but I think he was unfairly pushed into a position before he was able to adjust to the game here. He needed a little more time to develop. But you never know this year he might be huge.

Also I don't see a need for Toronto to be in this trade. Kadri + Ashton + 2nd is what LifeLeafer claimed as a fair deal for Lou (I respect his opinion and believe that is fair value.) Now Niemi isn't as good but does not need to be moved from SJ, is cap friendlier, and SJ is happy with him. Meaning from him to move from SJ would require more than Lou. So getting Niemi simply just for Kadri is a steal. No matter the upside from Kadri (upside being key here due to lack of NHL experience).

This trade is a benefit to Vancouver hence to homer trade, Toronto gambles both on moving Kadri and gambles on Niemi becoming Toskala 2.0, and SJ gets it dry. SJ definitely says no, and Toronto can arguably says no.
Why is anyone taking the OP's trade proposal serious? I for one, have never seen a three way trade involving that many players or formatted like that. It's unrealistic unless your on BeAGM on NHL 12.

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08-18-2012, 04:07 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by FlamingShark View Post
I think Niemi would be a nice fit for Toronto, he is strong mentally and would probably handle the pressure coming from media etc really well. I wouldn't trade him yet though... At least not for Kadri who is still very unproven.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Niemi really isn't a good goalie. But he has something that you don't see in every goalie, including the one's we classify elite. And that is he makes the TIMELY saves. I don't know how many times I've seen great goalies playing on stacked teams unable to make the important saves at the right time.

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08-18-2012, 04:10 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Why is anyone taking the OP's trade proposal serious? I for one, have never seen a three way trade involving that many players or formatted like that. It's unrealistic unless your on BeAGM on NHL 12.
Yes, this is the only 3 way proposal ever posted on HF. If you have some specific criticism, speak your mind and I'll try to address it. My intention was to invoke constructive criticism on a basis could be made, as the Leafs need a goalie, the Sharks could use an upgrade in net, and Vancouver would like to have roster players coming back instead of prospects. The 3 seemed at the time to be logical trading partners. If someone has a counter-proposal that they feel fits their teams needs better, feel free to put it up.

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08-18-2012, 04:13 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, this is the only 3 way proposal ever posted on HF. If you have some specific criticism, speak your mind and I'll try to address it. My intention was to invoke constructive criticism on a basis could be made, as the Leafs need a goalie, the Sharks could use an upgrade in net, and Vancouver would like to have roster players coming back instead of prospects. The 3 seemed at the time to be logical trading partners. If someone has a counter-proposal that they feel fits their teams needs better, feel free to put it up.
There is no counter proposal that works with the sharks getting Lu. It is a no go. We don't need an upgrade at goal.

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08-18-2012, 04:49 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, this is the only 3 way proposal ever posted on HF. If you have some specific criticism, speak your mind and I'll try to address it. My intention was to invoke constructive criticism on a basis could be made, as the Leafs need a goalie, the Sharks could use an upgrade in net, and Vancouver would like to have roster players coming back instead of prospects. The 3 seemed at the time to be logical trading partners. If someone has a counter-proposal that they feel fits their teams needs better, feel free to put it up.
Well, what you've put up is Hansen and Luongo for Clowe, Boyle, and a first. The Sharks already have a solid starting goalie, you're trying to offer us a goalie who had basically the same stats last year. In essence, it's a replacement that is minimal at best. What's worse is that the difference in their play doesn't justify the difference in their contracts. What's more is that Luongo's cap hit will affect us until he's less than a backup quality goalie.

Then we'll also lose Boyle, who is still one of the best puck-moving defensemen in the league. He still plays 25 minutes a game and after playing with a broken foot, he was able to put up 50 points last year, and arguably he could've hit 55 or 60 if he was completely healthy.

Then there's Hansen and Clowe. We lose a top-6 player for a 2nd-3rd line tweener. Hansen may be an improving player but we still lose one of the better power forwards in the league. If you want to argue that Kadri and Hansen offsets that loss, the problem is that there isn't enough evidence that Kadri is ready to play in the top-6 in the NHL and since the sharks play a power vs power system, that means Kadr will have to play against top competition right away. So if we want to develop Kadri right and give him the sheltered minutes he probably needs, we'd be playing him on the 3rd line and Hansen will also be on the 3rd line, so there will be a hole on in our top-6.

Also there's the issue that Toronto don't want to give up Kadri for Niemi. Reimer may one day become a good goalie, the last year has shown a questionable future. Maybe it's just a sophomore slump or maybe it's the beginning of a Steve Mason or DiPietro like decline, it's impossible to know for sure. Right now, Niemi is a much better goalie than Reimer.

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08-18-2012, 05:00 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
Well, what you've put up is Hansen and Luongo for Clowe, Boyle, and a first. The Sharks already have a solid starting goalie, you're trying to offer us a goalie who had basically the same stats last year. In essence, it's a replacement that is minimal at best. What's worse is that the difference in their play doesn't justify the difference in their contracts. What's more is that Luongo's cap hit will affect us until he's less than a backup quality goalie.

Then we'll also lose Boyle, who is still one of the best puck-moving defensemen in the league. He still plays 25 minutes a game and after playing with a broken foot, he was able to put up 50 points last year, and arguably he could've hit 55 or 60 if he was completely healthy.

Then there's Hansen and Clowe. We lose a top-6 player for a 2nd-3rd line tweener. Hansen may be an improving player but we still lose one of the better power forwards in the league. If you want to argue that Kadri and Hansen offsets that loss, the problem is that there isn't enough evidence that Kadri is ready to play in the top-6 in the NHL and since the sharks play a power vs power system, that means Kadr will have to play against top competition right away. So if we want to develop Kadri right and give him the sheltered minutes he probably needs, we'd be playing him on the 3rd line and Hansen will also be on the 3rd line, so there will be a hole on in our top-6.

Also there's the issue that Toronto don't want to give up Kadri for Niemi. Reimer may one day become a good goalie, the last year has shown a questionable future. Maybe it's just a sophomore slump or maybe it's the beginning of a Steve Mason or DiPietro like decline, it's impossible to know for sure. Right now, Niemi is a much better goalie than Reimer.

So realistically, what kind of returns are you looking for with Boyle+Clowe? The best you can expect is a younger replacement who's worse now.

I'll also just say that Luongo is certainly worth the 1.5 mil difference in cap hit than Niemi. If Wilson is unwilling to take cap circumvention contracts on principle, that's a different story.

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08-18-2012, 05:21 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So realistically, what kind of returns are you looking for with Boyle+Clowe? The best you can expect is a younger replacement who's worse now.

I'll also just say that Luongo is certainly worth the 1.5 mil difference in cap hit than Niemi. If Wilson is unwilling to take cap circumvention contracts on principle, that's a different story.
You could...just...not trade them...

The Sharks are in win now mode as much as Vancouver. Giving up their best defenseman for an older upgrade in net does not make sense in any way for them. Not to mention its not luongo's cap hit that scares teams. It's the length and actual money he's being paid. The Sharks are a successful team but they aren't swimming in money the same way the Canucks are lately.

Niemi is better than Reimer, but at the expense of the teams only projected top six forward it doesn't seem like the right move for them either.

Vancouver make out like bandits in this one so try don't complain lol.

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08-18-2012, 05:24 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So realistically, what kind of returns are you looking for with Boyle+Clowe? The best you can expect is a younger replacement who's worse now.

I'll also just say that Luongo is certainly worth the 1.5 mil difference in cap hit than Niemi. If Wilson is unwilling to take cap circumvention contracts on principle, that's a different story.
If we are going to trade Boyle alone it will be a young top 6 forward, add in Clowe the value is going to be a lot higher.

No he isn't considering how much salary has to be paid out, the cap hit is not what is actually being paid and don't bring your **** about the last few years since that is not soon. And like it has been said MANY times, Wilson WON'T take on that contract.

I don't get why you think this is a good trade for the anyone but the Canucks.

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08-18-2012, 05:27 PM
  #239
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You could...just...not trade them...

The Sharks are in win now mode as much as Vancouver. Giving up their best defenseman for an older upgrade in net does not make sense in any way for them. Not to mention its not luongo's cap hit that scares teams. It's the length and actual money he's being paid. The Sharks are a successful team but they aren't swimming in money the same way the Canucks are lately.

Niemi is better than Reimer, but at the expense of the teams only projected top six forward it doesn't seem like the right move for them either.

Vancouver make out like bandits in this one so try don't complain lol.
How am I complaining? Many Sharks fans have talked about moving out Clowe and Boyle, and I would like to know how they feel they can improve their team by doing so. If Sharks fans feel Clowe and Boyle are unmovable because there's no one to replace them, they should say so, but I was under the impression they were being shopped to improve their team. I tried to involve them in a trade that improves them in goaltending, speed, and youth, but it seems that there is no point in moving them for anything, as the holes theybleave can't be filled.

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08-18-2012, 05:32 PM
  #240
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Now I get why Nucks fans are some of the most hated fans on the board

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08-18-2012, 05:36 PM
  #241
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If we are going to trade Boyle alone it will be a young top 6 forward, add in Clowe the value is going to be a lot higher.

No he isn't considering how much salary has to be paid out, the cap hit is not what is actually being paid and don't bring your **** about the last few years since that is not soon. And like it has been said MANY times, Wilson WON'T take on that contract.

I don't get why you think this is a good trade for the anyone but the Canucks.
How could they trade Boyle if there's no one to replace his 25-minutes a night and Puck moving skills? They'd be a better team now with Boyle than with a young top 6 forward, at least that's the impression I get.

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08-18-2012, 05:43 PM
  #242
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You need to let me know which Sharks fans thought that was a good idea so I can make sure they get a stern talking-to.
the sad thing is, i could probably name off the names of who they were.

Just go to the sharks board and look at those who think speed is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and that Clowe's a dummy who cant skate or play D.

but ya, we dont wanna make our rivals for the cup better, we learned that with erhoff.

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08-18-2012, 05:47 PM
  #243
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Everyone just take it easy. I think there was a mistake in this proposal and they really meant Cory Schneider. I think SJ might be interested then but I don't think TO would be.

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08-18-2012, 06:10 PM
  #244
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How could they trade Boyle if there's no one to replace his 25-minutes a night and Puck moving skills? They'd be a better team now with Boyle than with a young top 6 forward, at least that's the impression I get.
Yes...which is why he won't be traded, and the young top 6 forward would have to be a Couture like forward, at least that's the only way I would trade him.

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08-18-2012, 06:10 PM
  #245
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Everyone just take it easy. I think there was a mistake in this proposal and they really meant Cory Schneider. I think SJ might be interested then but I don't think TO would be.
Not a chance.

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08-18-2012, 06:12 PM
  #246
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Everyone just take it easy. I think there was a mistake in this proposal and they really meant Cory Schneider. I think SJ might be interested then but I don't think TO would be.
I don't know how many times this has to be said, but the Sharks aren't interested in trading for ANY goalies, really. Heck, a fair number of fans (including myself) want to trade Niemi without any other goalies coming back. The Sharks prospect pool isn't great, but one thing they have in spades in quality goaltending prospects. And their defensive prospects aren't that bad either (short of a likely #1-level defensive prospect). Where the Sharks need help is forward depth. Both in the NHL, and in their system.

But again, the Sharks have no interest in Luongo, or Schneider, or Bernier, or pretty any other goalie out there. Heck, I doubt DW would even trade for Lundquist if he were available given that DW has said he wants to be cheaper in goal.

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08-18-2012, 06:39 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
How could they trade Boyle if there's no one to replace his 25-minutes a night and Puck moving skills? They'd be a better team now with Boyle than with a young top 6 forward, at least that's the impression I get.
The Sharks don't need Boyle on the team, but they don't need to trade him unless a significant piece is coming back. The only way the Sharks trade Boyle is if a young Top-6 forward is coming back. Think someone like Voracek.
Hansen is not a Top-6 forward, Kadri is not a Top-6 forward. Neither of those players help the team win-now.

Think about it this way. Hansen, Kadri, and Luongo is a considerable downgrade from Boyle, Clowe, and Niemi. Luongo is better than Niemi, but Clowe and Boyle will help the team a lot more than Hansen and Kadri. However, if you were to trade Boyle for Voracek (hypothetical, I know Philly says no), while the D is worse, the forward core is considerably better.
There is no one on Vancouver (that's not untouchable) that's worth losing Boyle, let alone Boyle and Clowe.

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08-18-2012, 06:41 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
How am I complaining? Many Sharks fans have talked about moving out Clowe and Boyle, and I would like to know how they feel they can improve their team by doing so. If Sharks fans feel Clowe and Boyle are unmovable because there's no one to replace them, they should say so, but I was under the impression they were being shopped to improve their team. I tried to involve them in a trade that improves them in goaltending, speed, and youth, but it seems that there is no point in moving them for anything, as the holes theybleave can't be filled.
*THEY don't complain. As in the Canucks. Phone typo.

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08-18-2012, 06:42 PM
  #249
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I like how Luongo is treated like his name is Dipietro. Don't want him? Fine, but don't try to belittle his talent. Vancouver easily has the strongest goaltending quad in the league with Luo, Schneider, Lack, and very underrated (hobey baker nominated) Cannata. Schnieder already can duel with everyone's temporary favourite (Quick), some think Lack is better than Schnieder. That is why Luongo is being moved. Go ahead and point at a handful of Luongo's off games (and totally ignore how the team played in front of him in those games), but this guy is going to the HOF. He held the fort in the Olympics when Brodeur crumbled, and he had 2 shutouts in the finals. His contract is nullified when he retires. Oh, and if you couldn't see the difference between the way the Canucks competed between the 1st 2 games vs. the Kings, and the others, then you didn't watch the games at all.

That said, the original proposal reeked of Homer-bias.

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08-18-2012, 06:46 PM
  #250
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Yes, this is the only 3 way proposal ever posted on HF. If you have some specific criticism, speak your mind and I'll try to address it. My intention was to invoke constructive criticism on a basis could be made, as the Leafs need a goalie, the Sharks could use an upgrade in net, and Vancouver would like to have roster players coming back instead of prospects. The 3 seemed at the time to be logical trading partners. If someone has a counter-proposal that they feel fits their teams needs better, feel free to put it up.
I get that there are lots of 3 way proposals on HF. But there all pretty ridiculous and unrealistic.

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