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Old
08-18-2012, 05:29 PM
  #101
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I love how everyone hates on SoCal still...I think some of you need go on twitter....Lupol, Bissonette, O'Brien, and Upshall have all spent part of this summer and last in LA/OC. I see pics of them all between Newport and LA....Avery was still out here until last year when he sold his house after his dust up with police, Igor Larionov and his family is out here, Valeri Bure is out here...Some of these guys never played a game for the Kings in there lives. I see Sheldon Souray and Chris Chelios around all the time. Kip Brennan is in Hermosa. Ethan Moreau lives in SoCal. Gretzky is back out here full time. Parros is in Hermosa. I saw O'Donnell a few summers ago out here as well. Rob Blake lives here. I can keep going and going....
The Twitter Kings:

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08-18-2012, 06:11 PM
  #102
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That's a decision for the GM and coaching staff, and I think Suter will surprise you a little. I think there's a bit more going on behind the scenes then we know about and buying Westgarth out would have made more sense if they had no intent to play him at all.
Please answer the 2 questions below, and then please enlighten us with all your wisdom as to how Holden "couldn't be more wrong:"

How important was Westgarth in the last 20 games of the season, during which the Kings played their best hockey and ended up clinching a playoff spot?

And how important was Westgarth in the playoffs, during which the Kings went 16-4 and won the STANLEY ****ING CUP?

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08-18-2012, 06:34 PM
  #103
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Its not that i dont want to keep gagne I just feel that theres more value in keeping clifford and king in 3 4th line roles there used to. Gagne is a top 6 player needing the linemates and mins that u get playing it. Now that penner resigned he had cemistry with richard and carter i cant see them getting rid of him. We have 6 nhl level lw wingers one must go and gagne is the odd one out imo
Every line still gets receives alot of ice time, and we also need him for the power play. You want the best team possible and he helps that more than Clifford does.

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Old
08-18-2012, 07:07 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Please answer the 2 questions below, and then please enlighten us with all your wisdom as to how Holden "couldn't be more wrong:"

How important was Westgarth in the last 20 games of the season, during which the Kings played their best hockey and ended up clinching a playoff spot?

And how important was Westgarth in the playoffs, during which the Kings went 16-4 and won the STANLEY ****ING CUP?
TM didn't do this, but normally an enforcer's role decreases at the end of the year and they aren't used during the playoffs. This goes for many successful teams including Pittsburgh in 2009 with Eric Godard, Detroit with Aaron Downey in 2008, and persists to this day. Eager and more particularly Shawn Thornton were capable players who were also enforcers, the Kings had no-one in that capacity but it has been established since the late 1990's that that's not their time of year. Early December games against the Florida Panthers [featuring Westy's contemporary George Parros and Eric Gudbranson], Minnesota [featuring Matt Kassian and Zenon Konopka], and early february games against NYR [featuring Mike Rupp, Stu Bickel, Arron Asham, and Micheal Haley] are just examples of games where teams have enforcers and additional toughness available. Dwight King and Jordan Nolan are not nearly as good fighters as some people make them out to be and would be virtually annihilated as our toughness against an NYR during the regular season. Don't be fooled by New Jersey either, Cam Janssen and Eric Boulton played a combined 99 regular season games last year, scoring 1 point but adding much more in toughness. What did NJ do this year? They buy out Boulton and sign his an almost identical player in Krys Barch to a nearly identical deal, while Boulton, he of 0 points in 51 games last year, signs a 1-way with the Islanders, who also add Matt Carkner [for 3 years], the man who beat up 6'7 Brian Boyle in the Senators-Rangers opening series after Boyle took liberties with Carlson the game before. The Ducks lose Parros to Florida but sign Stuabitz to try to replace him. He's smaller but has fought a few heavyweights and might fight Westgarth. The Coyotes have Biz for 2 more years [like us with Westgarth] and signed Joel Rechlicz to a 2-way just in case, while San Jose also re-signed Frazer McLaren who could give us headaches for years to come with his decent speed and very physical style. Dallas is soft as pudding but they're already the laughing stock of the league in every way and nobody in Texas even cares about them anymore, just look at their attendance trend. There are plenty more names I could mention, but there's a use for these players in an 82 game season without a doubt and the only reason there was so little of them last year was because of the 3 tragic deaths, not because of a magic trend against enforcers that never seems to take effect and is as much a myth as the loch ness monster.

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Old
08-18-2012, 07:33 PM
  #105
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Kevin Westgarth has appeared in 90 games in parts of three seasons with the Kings. He was only dressed for 25 games this past season. I know his role isn't to get on the scoreboard, but one goal and 5 points in 90 games with 19 fighting majors isn't going to be missed. Sure he's a good guy, but is his presence really a deterrent when enforcers have gone the way of the dinosaur?

What did Matt Carkner solve for the Senators? They ended up losing their series. Cam Janssen did nothing. B.J. Crombeen did nothing. Eric Boulton did nothing. These players are all worthless in today's game. A guy like Clifford or Kassian can play. Shawn Thornton can play hockey. The way of the league now is to have toughness in the form of middleweights who can play a shift and not waste away a roster spot.

If you are looking for toughness, Kyle Clifford will provide that for the Kings. Kevin Westgarth only throws with other heavyweights, and there are few of those around. He's also isn't a very good checker. He hardly connects with any hits because he is easy to avoid. Growing up I was a huge fan of guys like McSorley, Grimson and Twist, but players like that are pretty much extinct nowadays. It's like trying to find a power forward in today's NHL, they're a rare breed because it is rare where you find a player who can hit hard, score goals, and drop the gloves.

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08-18-2012, 07:38 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kevin Westgarth has appeared in 90 games in parts of three seasons with the Kings. He was only dressed for 25 games this past season. I know his role isn't to get on the scoreboard, but one goal and 5 points in 90 games with 19 fighting majors isn't going to be missed. Sure he's a good guy, but is his presence really a deterrent when enforcers have gone the way of the dinosaur?

What did Matt Carkner solve for the Senators? They ended up losing their series. Cam Janssen did nothing. B.J. Crombeen did nothing. Eric Boulton did nothing. These players are all worthless in today's game. A guy like Clifford or Kassian can play. Shawn Thornton can play hockey. The way of the league now is to have toughness in the form of middleweights who can play a shift and not waste away a roster spot.

If you are looking for toughness, Kyle Clifford will provide that for the Kings. Kevin Westgarth only throws with other heavyweights, and there are few of those around. He's also isn't a very good checker. He hardly connects with any hits because he is easy to avoid. Growing up I was a huge fan of guys like McSorley, Grimson and Twist, but players like that are pretty much extinct nowadays. It's like trying to find a power forward in today's NHL, they're a rare breed because it is rare where you find a player who can hit hard, score goals, and drop the gloves.
...Matt Kassian


There are at least 15 players just like Westgarth in the NHL, not to mention Westgarth did about as well statistically as Jordan Nolan, who could use a little more AHL seasoning before the deadline.

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08-18-2012, 08:46 PM
  #107
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TM didn't do this, but normally an enforcer's role decreases at the end of the year and they aren't used during the playoffs. This goes for many successful teams including Pittsburgh in 2009 with Eric Godard, Detroit with Aaron Downey in 2008, and persists to this day. Eager and more particularly Shawn Thornton were capable players who were also enforcers, the Kings had no-one in that capacity but it has been established since the late 1990's that that's not their time of year. Early December games against the Florida Panthers [featuring Westy's contemporary George Parros and Eric Gudbranson], Minnesota [featuring Matt Kassian and Zenon Konopka], and early february games against NYR [featuring Mike Rupp, Stu Bickel, Arron Asham, and Micheal Haley] are just examples of games where teams have enforcers and additional toughness available. Dwight King and Jordan Nolan are not nearly as good fighters as some people make them out to be and would be virtually annihilated as our toughness against an NYR during the regular season. Don't be fooled by New Jersey either, Cam Janssen and Eric Boulton played a combined 99 regular season games last year, scoring 1 point but adding much more in toughness. What did NJ do this year? They buy out Boulton and sign his an almost identical player in Krys Barch to a nearly identical deal, while Boulton, he of 0 points in 51 games last year, signs a 1-way with the Islanders, who also add Matt Carkner [for 3 years], the man who beat up 6'7 Brian Boyle in the Senators-Rangers opening series after Boyle took liberties with Carlson the game before. The Ducks lose Parros to Florida but sign Stuabitz to try to replace him. He's smaller but has fought a few heavyweights and might fight Westgarth. The Coyotes have Biz for 2 more years [like us with Westgarth] and signed Joel Rechlicz to a 2-way just in case, while San Jose also re-signed Frazer McLaren who could give us headaches for years to come with his decent speed and very physical style. Dallas is soft as pudding but they're already the laughing stock of the league in every way and nobody in Texas even cares about them anymore, just look at their attendance trend. There are plenty more names I could mention, but there's a use for these players in an 82 game season without a doubt and the only reason there was so little of them last year was because of the 3 tragic deaths, not because of a magic trend against enforcers that never seems to take effect and is as much a myth as the loch ness monster.
Remember that game where the Blackhawks dressed John Scott and the Kings didn't dress Westgarth and Scott had nothing to do in his couple minutes of ice time other than take 2 bad minor penalties?

I do.

Guess who won that game?

I'll give you a hint.

Not the team that dressed John Scott.

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Old
08-18-2012, 08:46 PM
  #108
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There are at least 15 players like Westgarth and we won a Cup without any of them. Statistics aren't the end-all. There is no reason whatsoever to have him on the roster. It's fun to watch guys beat the crap out of each other but at this point in time we're in a position where we don't need him. And it's not like we're talking about a guy who wins all his fights and is good at gooning play up. Westgarth is not a great fighter.

Maybe he fits in on another team but we don't need this guy.

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08-18-2012, 10:00 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ninetynine View Post
...Matt Kassian


There are at least 15 players just like Westgarth in the NHL, not to mention Westgarth did about as well statistically as Jordan Nolan, who could use a little more AHL seasoning before the deadline.
Are you really comparing Nolan and Westgarth?




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08-18-2012, 10:58 PM
  #110
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...Matt Kassian


There are at least 15 players just like Westgarth in the NHL, not to mention Westgarth did about as well statistically as Jordan Nolan, who could use a little more AHL seasoning before the deadline.
Here's the major difference. Jordan Nolan can actually skate, can actually keep up to make hits, can actually run a cycle, can actually hold onto the puck. He is decent enough fighter for when the opportunity arises where it's needed, Westgarth's fights are all staged crap that nobody cares about. It does nothing to help the team, there's no emotion involved.

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TM didn't do this, but normally an enforcer's role decreases at the end of the year and they aren't used during the playoffs. This goes for many successful teams including Pittsburgh in 2009 with Eric Godard, Detroit with Aaron Downey in 2008, and persists to this day. Eager and more particularly Shawn Thornton were capable players who were also enforcers, the Kings had no-one in that capacity but it has been established since the late 1990's that that's not their time of year. Early December games against the Florida Panthers [featuring Westy's contemporary George Parros and Eric Gudbranson], Minnesota [featuring Matt Kassian and Zenon Konopka], and early february games against NYR [featuring Mike Rupp, Stu Bickel, Arron Asham, and Micheal Haley] are just examples of games where teams have enforcers and additional toughness available. Dwight King and Jordan Nolan are not nearly as good fighters as some people make them out to be and would be virtually annihilated as our toughness against an NYR during the regular season. Don't be fooled by New Jersey either, Cam Janssen and Eric Boulton played a combined 99 regular season games last year, scoring 1 point but adding much more in toughness. What did NJ do this year? They buy out Boulton and sign his an almost identical player in Krys Barch to a nearly identical deal, while Boulton, he of 0 points in 51 games last year, signs a 1-way with the Islanders, who also add Matt Carkner [for 3 years], the man who beat up 6'7 Brian Boyle in the Senators-Rangers opening series after Boyle took liberties with Carlson the game before. The Ducks lose Parros to Florida but sign Stuabitz to try to replace him. He's smaller but has fought a few heavyweights and might fight Westgarth. The Coyotes have Biz for 2 more years [like us with Westgarth] and signed Joel Rechlicz to a 2-way just in case, while San Jose also re-signed Frazer McLaren who could give us headaches for years to come with his decent speed and very physical style. Dallas is soft as pudding but they're already the laughing stock of the league in every way and nobody in Texas even cares about them anymore, just look at their attendance trend. There are plenty more names I could mention, but there's a use for these players in an 82 game season without a doubt and the only reason there was so little of them last year was because of the 3 tragic deaths, not because of a magic trend against enforcers that never seems to take effect and is as much a myth as the loch ness monster.
Bad teams let other teams dictate who will be in their lineup. Top teams do not. I do not care one iota what the other teams are doing, if they want to waste roster spots on players who cannot play the game of hockey, let them. These guys only fight other fighters, if we don't have one they will just hurt their teams by being on the ice. It's not like a Bissonnette, Boulton, whatever are going to be able to even catch us, nevermind "take cheap shots" or whatever the hell Westgarth is supposed to be precenting. We have plenty of guys who will NOT be pushed around, and we are plenty "tough" playing the actual game of hockey.

Who cares if some idiot on the other team wants to run around challenging guys to fight, Kings'll skate around. And the "middleweight" type of fights that are actually useful (and fun to watch) the Kings have Mitchell, Greene, Nolan, Fraser, King, even Brown that'll step up and prevent us getting pushed around. Kings will physically punish you, Kings will skate you into the earth, Kings will beak, Kings will drive you nuts with a relentless attack. No need for a sideshow that serves no purpose except to hurt the team's ability to play their style.

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Old
08-19-2012, 12:56 AM
  #111
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Remember that game where the Blackhawks dressed John Scott and the Kings didn't dress Westgarth and Scott had nothing to do in his couple minutes of ice time other than take 2 bad minor penalties?

I do.

Guess who won that game?

I'll give you a hint.

Not the team that dressed John Scott.
Brian McGrattan, Darcy Hordichuk, Shawn Thornton and Cam Janssen are just the most obvious examples of players who take runs at the opposing team because they know they won't face any retribution when the other team is less tough. Scott is far slower and can't hit much, bad example, Westgarth is faster than Scott and can make solid hits.

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08-19-2012, 01:02 AM
  #112
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There are at least 15 players like Westgarth and we won a Cup without any of them. Statistics aren't the end-all. There is no reason whatsoever to have him on the roster. It's fun to watch guys beat the crap out of each other but at this point in time we're in a position where we don't need him. And it's not like we're talking about a guy who wins all his fights and is good at gooning play up. Westgarth is not a great fighter.

Maybe he fits in on another team but we don't need this guy.
Well he's very possibly sticking around and playing a little so too bad. DS was in playoff mode basically from the point he was hired. He's definetly not your friend if you don't like enforcers though...ask Flame fans....

You guys are in for several surprises next year, but I do sincerely hope you guys make the playoffs, good team, good players. And no Westy won't play then and I never claimed he should... It's been fun to debate a bit the past couple weeks, peace out from a Flyer fan, and good luck next year.

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08-19-2012, 01:03 AM
  #113
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Brian McGrattan, Darcy Hordichuk, Shawn Thornton and Cam Janssen are just the most obvious examples of players who take runs at the opposing team because they know they won't face any retribution when the other team is less tough. Scott is far slower and can't hit much, bad example, Westgarth is faster than Scott and can make solid hits.
LOL Westgarth make solid hits? Excuse me?


Jordan Nolan - 26 games, 59 hits.

Kevin Westgarth - 25 games, 31 hits.


And by no means are Westgarths hits SOLID. Just go on youtube and type 'Kevin Westgarth hit' you won't find much. Actually, you'll find this:




Grant Clitsome is 5'11, 215. Kevin Westgarth is 6'4, 234 AND had momentum. If he's as good a hitter as you make him seen then how come Clitsome isn't being peeled off the boards like wallpaper right now?


Meanwhile, Nolan needs more seasoning.


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08-19-2012, 01:13 AM
  #114
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ha i remember when someone was mad that we didnt play Westgarth earlier this year vs Chicago and big bad John Scott. Kings ended up winning the game with Scott playing 3 minutes and throwing 0 hits.

Them big bad heavyweights

Hockey players should be valued on their ability to alter a hockey game. Westgarth's only ability is to give other heavyweights something to do for 15 seconds before spending the rest of the night on the bench

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08-19-2012, 01:30 AM
  #115
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ha i remember when someone was mad that we didnt play Westgarth earlier this year vs Chicago and big bad John Scott. Kings ended up winning the game with Scott playing 3 minutes and throwing 0 hits.

Them big bad heavyweights

Hockey players should be valued on their ability to alter a hockey game. Westgarth's only ability is to give other heavyweights something to do for 15 seconds before spending the rest of the night on the bench
And it never occurred to you that that's how things work in the NHL? Parros, Ivanans, Westgarth, etc. never would have stayed up in the NHL based on playing ability alone. It's a very specialized and underappreciated role. Enforcers tend to be 6'3+, 220+,virtually always white or black exclusively (sometimes native), and undersized enforcers have to fight the biggest anyway or they cannot make it. The enforcers is typically among if not the lowest-paid llayer on his team and is often torn apart on internet forum boards, often by people who've never played hockey (not saying that's you just pointing it out)while beloved in dressing rooms and even arenas. GM's, teammates, and coaches tend to love them and they are typically friendly and articulate off the ice.

Also as for hits, check out the one on Torres in October before Bissonnette jumped in.

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08-19-2012, 04:42 AM
  #116
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The way this league is going, it's not fit for enforcers. There are 15 guys like Westgarth? Fascinating. We'll spend the duration of the lockout talking about how lucky we were to win the cup without playing an enforcer this past season...the one season we didn't use an enforcer, mind you.

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08-19-2012, 11:39 AM
  #117
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And it never occurred to you that that's how things work in the NHL? Parros, Ivanans, Westgarth, etc. never would have stayed up in the NHL based on playing ability alone. It's a very specialized and underappreciated role. Enforcers tend to be 6'3+, 220+,virtually always white or black exclusively (sometimes native), and undersized enforcers have to fight the biggest anyway or they cannot make it. The enforcers is typically among if not the lowest-paid llayer on his team and is often torn apart on internet forum boards, often by people who've never played hockey (not saying that's you just pointing it out)while beloved in dressing rooms and even arenas. GM's, teammates, and coaches tend to love them and they are typically friendly and articulate off the ice.

Also as for hits, check out the one on Torres in October before Bissonnette jumped in.
So you only want to keep enforcers on the team out of pity that they are good guys who can't play hockey? Hell, i'm a good guy who can't play hockey, ill take 600k/year to sit on the bench

I don't see why you keep Westgarth, even though he is bad at hockey, purely because once every 8 games he will have a staged fight vs another heavyweight in a pointless situation

Has Westgarth ever had a non-staged fight? Has he ever jumped to the defence of a teammate and had a fight right there and then? I can't remember him ever doing that

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08-19-2012, 11:51 AM
  #118
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Enforcers tend to be 6'3+, 220+,virtually always white or black exclusively (sometimes native)
Can you explain this to me? I have no idea what you're saying.

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08-19-2012, 11:57 AM
  #119
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Enforcers tend to be 6'3+, 220+,virtually always white or black exclusively (sometimes native), and undersized enforcers have to fight the biggest anyway or they cannot make it.
I have noticed a rapid decline of the Asian ans Hispanic enforcer!

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08-19-2012, 12:06 PM
  #120
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Every line still gets receives alot of ice time, and we also need him for the power play. You want the best team possible and he helps that more than Clifford does.
So what ur saying is u would rather play gagne on the 3rd line and have king clifford split the 4th line spot? This in my opinion is going to ruin the developement of king and clifford. King is right now our only young scoring option. On the 4th line he ll get maybe 10 mins a game and if hes pulled every other game to play clifford i say his talent gets wasted as well as clifford it would make his game go backward for lack of playing time. So if u trade gagne clifford and king can play 3rd 4th line mins they both need. I would rather trade gagne ( a player who will only be with them one more year ) and keep king and clifford delvoping as players.

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08-19-2012, 12:12 PM
  #121
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Can you explain this to me? I have no idea what you're saying.
I didn't word that the way I wanted to, I was basically saying there has been several black enforcers.



To other comment:

No you don't keep enforcers out of pity, you keep them because heavyweight fights are fun.

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08-19-2012, 12:19 PM
  #122
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To other comment:

No you don't keep enforcers out of pity, you keep them because heavyweight fights are fun.
Aaaaaannnnndddddd, we finally to get to the core of your argument. A point which most people disagree with, btw, staged fights are not fun.

And personally, I think watching the Kings win a heck of lot of games is helluva lot more fun, but that's just me.

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08-19-2012, 12:35 PM
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Aaaaaannnnndddddd, we finally to get to the core of your argument. A point which most people disagree with, btw, staged fights are not fun.

And personally, I think watching the Kings win a heck of lot of games is helluva lot more fun, but that's just me.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...


Staged, ****** fights...



Or...



Winning the Stanley Cup?



Man, that's a tough one. I mean, the Stanley Cup is cool and all, but I think I'd much rather watch two terrible hockey players try and beat each other's brains out in a fight that has zero actual impact on the game. Yep, sold. **** the Stanley Cup! I want terrible hockey players ALL DAY EVERY DAY!

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08-19-2012, 01:44 PM
  #124
Moses Doughty
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
So what ur saying is u would rather play gagne on the 3rd line and have king clifford split the 4th line spot? This in my opinion is going to ruin the developement of king and clifford. King is right now our only young scoring option. On the 4th line he ll get maybe 10 mins a game and if hes pulled every other game to play clifford i say his talent gets wasted as well as clifford it would make his game go backward for lack of playing time. So if u trade gagne clifford and king can play 3rd 4th line mins they both need. I would rather trade gagne ( a player who will only be with them one more year ) and keep king and clifford delvoping as players.
And if they can't live up to the expectations? Say King struggles and Clifford plays like he did last year. Then the Kings are short 1 top 9 winger and that's assuming Penner can continue his playoff success. You can't automatically assume they will be ready for duty.

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Old
08-19-2012, 01:59 PM
  #125
Muzzinga
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Originally Posted by ninetynine View Post


To other comment:

No you don't keep enforcers out of pity, you keep them because heavyweight fights are fun.
I have never found a Westgarth fight fun. Staged fights have no emotion, and no one cares what happens.

Brown fighting Doan was something that had me on the edge of my seat since it had meaning, emotion and you really really wanted Brown to 'win'

Westgarth vs Parros involves me hoping 1 of them falls quickly so we can get back to hockey

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