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Old
08-18-2012, 09:05 AM
  #101
luki here
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
The CHL needs 19 year old stars more than the AHL needs 19 year old first year pros. The CHL is the number 1 junior development league in the world, if you start chipping away at the level of competition in junior, it could have a negative impact on the league as a whole. In order for young players to develop they need to play against the best possible competition, i.e. older players. Example, 15 year old hot shot rookie Connor McDavid will be playing his first year in the OHL, in playing the Niagra Ice Dogs and Ryan Strome, McDavid develops into the best possible junior player he can be. No 19 year old not yet ready for the prime time big lights of the NHL rink was ever negatively impacted by playing an extra year in junior. The model is not broken, thus no need to fix it. I understand fans want to see their prospects move up the food chain as fast as possible, but lets think big picture here. The NHL needs the CHL.
What percentage of nhl players played in the chl?

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08-18-2012, 09:22 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
I can trust the CHL and NHL agreeing on something that makes sense for both of them. That might simply be the status quo. If not, and the NHL wants to get a handful (or more) of 19 year olds into the AHL, then I'd trust the CHL to represent their interests wisely for their end of the deal.

The exceptional status in this case might have to do with the needs of the NHL team and not simply the player's status among his peers. It may be AHL/NHL-centric as opposed to focusing on the CHL's end. Between them, they could agree on different requirements, put it up to a vote of some kind for each petitioner, or simply set a limit to how many. (Instead of one 19-year-old player/team/year, they could even have the limit be one 19-year-old player/team/3 years or some other variation.)

Other than winning a championship, does Strome really have that much left to prove in the OHL?

Strome was 3rd in the OHL in scoring as a 17 year old (2 points behind the leaders who were both much older than him; one player was over one year older and the other was over 3 years older.) The next season (2011-12) he stayed with the Islanders for a bit without playing, then they sent him back to his OHL squad and wished him to focus on his goalscoring.

While Strome's point totals were reduced (10 point drop in pace), Strome increased his goalscoring output from 0.508 to 0.652 goals/game and had a rather successful playoff run (finishing 5th in OHL playoff scoring. Again, the players that outscored Strome were 5 months older or more. Not quite as important, but worth noting to some degree.)

So other than winning a championship and aiming for the scoring title (or trying further to increase his ability to score goals), does Strome really have much still to prove at this level?

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Mitch

P.S. Stepping away from HF for the day. If required, I'll respond later at night or tomorrow sometime. Good back and forth.
The CHL will not agree. It need those players as its stars.

The deal is if they aren't ready for the NHL, they aren't ready to play in the AHL either. The "exceptional" rule already exists - they can play in the NHL. Those kids, especially ones that aren't physically filled out (i.e., almost all of them), should be playing against elite kids their own size, not a bunch of scrubs.

If the NHL doesn't like it, it can find another league of 60 teams comprising of 25 players each to mine from.

Most of the players we're talking about should be in the CHL. To say they have nothing more to learn there is silly. Most of those players will be on playoff teams (the CHL works by teams with a chance loading up for a run for a year or two followed by a couple years of rebuilding, thus the best CHL players end up on good teams typically).

The Memorial Cup is the hardest championship to win in hockey. You've got to win your league, then a week-long tournament of champions. Nino would have been better served at 19 in Portland playing in the WHL finals than in Bridgeport.

What you also may not be aware of is that the same union represents CHL and AHL & ECHL players. I'm not sure the AHL players want to be losing paying jobs for their scrubs to a bunch of kids that should be in the CHL either.

As for Strome, what does he have to prove? That he can dominate, but more importantly, that he can put on more weight and muscle playing against kids his own size and smaller instead of being manhandled by a bunch of meathead scrubs in the AHL because he's undersized and weak.

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Old
08-18-2012, 09:42 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by lukasfindl View Post
What percentage of nhl players played in the chl?
According to this guy:
http://board.uscho.com/showthread.ph........real-data.

Quote:
Total Players:
978 players participated in at least 1 game

Totals by Dev Path:525.5 via the CHL – 53.7%
289.5 via the NCAA – 29.6%
163 via Europe/Asia – 16.7%
*half a player = NCAA-to-CHL defection

Total Players (Adjusted for games played….GP/82):
571.78 “adjusted” players

By Dev. Path:
309.92 CHL – 54.2%
154.37 NCAA – 27.0%
107.49 Euro – 18.8%

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08-18-2012, 10:03 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
Cheers! Thats quite a bit more than i expected. I guess quite a few europeans/us kids go to canada to play in the chl.

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08-18-2012, 10:06 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by lukasfindl View Post
Cheers! Thats quite a bit more than i expected. I guess quite a few europeans/us kids go to canada to play in the chl.
It used to be a lot higher. I saw another stat someplace that since 1970 it was like 75% of the players came from the CHL (but, of course, back then like 90% of the NHLers were CDN.)

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08-18-2012, 04:55 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
The CHL will not agree. It need those players as its stars.

The deal is if they aren't ready for the NHL, they aren't ready to play in the AHL either. The "exceptional" rule already exists - they can play in the NHL. Those kids, especially ones that aren't physically filled out (i.e., almost all of them), should be playing against elite kids their own size, not a bunch of scrubs.

If the NHL doesn't like it, it can find another league of 60 teams comprising of 25 players each to mine from.

Most of the players we're talking about should be in the CHL. To say they have nothing more to learn there is silly. Most of those players will be on playoff teams (the CHL works by teams with a chance loading up for a run for a year or two followed by a couple years of rebuilding, thus the best CHL players end up on good teams typically).

The Memorial Cup is the hardest championship to win in hockey. You've got to win your league, then a week-long tournament of champions. Nino would have been better served at 19 in Portland playing in the WHL finals than in Bridgeport.

What you also may not be aware of is that the same union represents CHL and AHL & ECHL players. I'm not sure the AHL players want to be losing paying jobs for their scrubs to a bunch of kids that should be in the CHL either.

As for Strome, what does he have to prove? That he can dominate, but more importantly, that he can put on more weight and muscle playing against kids his own size and smaller instead of being manhandled by a bunch of meathead scrubs in the AHL because he's undersized and weak.
I like you, JKP, but you're stating a lot of opinions as facts here. The AHL is not as big or fast as the NHL. The AHL is above the CHL and below the NHL in everything. It's conjecture to simply state that Nino is better served in the CHL than the AHL. You're welcome to that opinion, but don't confuse it as a fact. I obviously have a dissenting opinion.

We're not necessarily talking about a lot of players here. The overall impact on the CHL and AHL players is questionable.

The idea is that some players might be ready for stronger, but not the strongest competition or pressure. The benefit is that the NHL clubs can get a longer look or even bring these kids up after a half season in the AHL learning systems and under NHL conditioning programs. It's the extra option that matters. What if a kid starts strong and has a great camp, he gets past his 9 games, and then at game 25 hits a slump. The AHL isn't an option beyond conditioning under current conditions. What if a roster spot opens up after the trade deadline and the player can get another test late in the season?

I'm aware of the PHPA. You're mentioning players losing jobs, but not balancing that with better players making higher salaries sooner and the slight chance for more exceptional young players entering the CHL early. It's not a cut and dry negative for the PHPA as a whole.

Did this from my phone. Can't see myself posting again until I'm near a real keyboard. (Didn't think I'd get to this now either.)

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Mitch

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08-18-2012, 08:55 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
I like you, JKP, but you're stating a lot of opinions as facts here. The AHL is not as big or fast as the NHL. The AHL is above the CHL and below the NHL in everything. It's conjecture to simply state that Nino is better served in the CHL than the AHL. You're welcome to that opinion, but don't confuse it as a fact. I obviously have a dissenting opinion.

We're not necessarily talking about a lot of players here. The overall impact on the CHL and AHL players is questionable.

The idea is that some players might be ready for stronger, but not the strongest competition or pressure. The benefit is that the NHL clubs can get a longer look or even bring these kids up after a half season in the AHL learning systems and under NHL conditioning programs. It's the extra option that matters. What if a kid starts strong and has a great camp, he gets past his 9 games, and then at game 25 hits a slump. The AHL isn't an option beyond conditioning under current conditions. What if a roster spot opens up after the trade deadline and the player can get another test late in the season?

I'm aware of the PHPA. You're mentioning players losing jobs, but not balancing that with better players making higher salaries sooner and the slight chance for more exceptional young players entering the CHL early. It's not a cut and dry negative for the PHPA as a whole.

Did this from my phone. Can't see myself posting again until I'm near a real keyboard. (Didn't think I'd get to this now either.)

,
Mitch
I like you too, Mitchy, and you're right. I am stating a number of opinions as fact.

But my opinion is based on actual observation. We've had both the CHL and AHL in this town over the years. I've seen lots of both. Without question in my mind -- and the consensus of everyone I know -- the CHL is a superior product with a higher level of relative skill, it's just much more raw (and faster and more exciting). Most of the cities here that had AHL teams couldn't draw with them and now all have Q teams, which draw quite well.

Thus, I disagree with your assertion that the AHL is superior to the CHL. There's little question in my mind that a CHL all-star team would likely smoke an AHL all-star team. I'd venture that the Mem Cup winner could probably beat most AHL teams too. The guys in the AHL have learned to play defence better, and they're physically more mature, but they are generally much less talented. That's why NHL players dominate in the AHL and why many of the best of them simply skipped the AHL entirely.

Boys should not be playing a man's game unless they are really, really good. And if they're that good, then they should be in the NHL. If not, back to junior until they are that good or until they're men and ready to play a man's league.

You don't think plucking the next level of stars out of the CHL would have that big an impact, but I completely disagree. You'd be pulling guys like Kabanov out of the CHL exactly at the point where they are most impactful on their teams.

But, then again, I also think the draft should go back to 20.

I suspect we'll be agreeing to disagree.

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08-18-2012, 09:52 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
But, then again, I also think the draft should go back to 20.
Mitch is awesome. Now if I could only say that in 1286 characters

I wish the draft age was raised....we did so much better back then.

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08-21-2012, 01:08 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
I like you too, Mitchy, and you're right. I am stating a number of opinions as fact.

But my opinion is based on actual observation. We've had both the CHL and AHL in this town over the years. I've seen lots of both. Without question in my mind -- and the consensus of everyone I know -- the CHL is a superior product with a higher level of relative skill, it's just much more raw (and faster and more exciting). Most of the cities here that had AHL teams couldn't draw with them and now all have Q teams, which draw quite well.

Thus, I disagree with your assertion that the AHL is superior to the CHL. There's little question in my mind that a CHL all-star team would likely smoke an AHL all-star team. I'd venture that the Mem Cup winner could probably beat most AHL teams too. The guys in the AHL have learned to play defence better, and they're physically more mature, but they are generally much less talented. That's why NHL players dominate in the AHL and why many of the best of them simply skipped the AHL entirely.

Boys should not be playing a man's game unless they are really, really good. And if they're that good, then they should be in the NHL. If not, back to junior until they are that good or until they're men and ready to play a man's league.

You don't think plucking the next level of stars out of the CHL would have that big an impact, but I completely disagree. You'd be pulling guys like Kabanov out of the CHL exactly at the point where they are most impactful on their teams.

But, then again, I also think the draft should go back to 20.

I suspect we'll be agreeing to disagree.
Well, I'm glad there's a lot of mutual affection around here.

The bolded part is exactly why the AHL is a superior league in terms of developing prospects who can handle the scenario of being there that aren't ready for the pressure and even higher level of talent/physicality of the NHL. The AHL prepares these players by honing their craft against larger players who play more defense and have more professional games of experience like the ones to be encountered in the NHL. There are also AHL players who are simply getting by on their effort and not just their talent. Even if there is truly a lack of talent, and I'd suggest that the ability of an actual overall AHL team isn't behind that of an actual overall CHL team in terms of all qualities required to win hockey games against each other, then we still need to consider work effort and experience into the equation of the AHL team.

I'm not suggesting that the overall raw talent is better in the AHL. The CHL can fill 60 teams worth (amongst its leagues) of players filled with the best crop of Canadian players. On top of this, the CHL also gets significant amounts of American players and imported foreign players. Yes, without a doubt, it's a very talented league of young players who generally lack experience playing against more experienced men who are physically filled out.

There are NHL teams that already rush some of their 18 and 19 year old players because there is no other place to put them, while these teams believe that they may need their services during the season (or think they're ready at the start.) Part of the reason why this occurs is because the teams with better draft positions are also the teams that tend to be the weakest in the league in terms of NHL talent and NHL depth. So some stars are already being poached from the CHL to feed weaker NHL teams even as the scenario stands now.

Yes, you see dominant 19-year-old player seasons from CHL players. However, you may also see dominant seasons from some overagers who may have no real chance at NHL careers. On top of this, you might see significant dominance displayed by those same 19 year olds when they were 18 year olds in the league. (I'm using the age of the players as they enter the season in my consideration of this topic.) Mind you, age is extremely important here. The toughest year for players is their first year in the CHL, AHL or NHL. There's a significant difference between players who are simply an old 19 and a young 19 in terms of how they can dominate their league. That might show you that these players are actually outgrowing their competition.

I'm fine with the draft being moved to 20. You get a better idea of what you're looking at. I don't see that happening for some of the reasons I presented earlier - the main one being that the PHPA isn't against their players making more money sooner. More importantly, the NHLPA isn't against their players making more money sooner, but they also might not want their players being rushed so they won't be making even more money later! Most importantly, regarding the subject we're discussing, the draft age being moved to 20 actually removes the scenario I'm concerned about and keeps more 18-19 year old talent in the CHL. I simply want a place to put these players that isn't as pressured as the NHL, but has stronger players who focus on defense in case said players hit a bump in the NHL. Regardless, I don't see the draft age changing unless other factors change with it.

JKP, I respect your opinions which are based on your observations. I just don't think you're weighting the size, strength and experience enough when it comes to playing a season of hockey in the AHL or the extra physical and mental abilities along with experience that the NHL brings beyond the AHL. It's a middle ground in many ways.

Besides all of the above, I'm not suggesting that all 19 year olds be thrown into the AHL as my solution. I'm actually all for a system that considers all parties involved. You could allow for 9 game AHL tryouts during the beginning of the regular season (and a total of 9 professional games. So 4 AHL games and 5 NHL games would be possible.) You could limit the number of AHL eligible 18/19 year old players to X number of players over Y years. If an NHL team could only choose one player for this designation every 3 years, you can't tell me that would seriously gut the CHL beyond recognition. Even in the worst case scenario, it would prevent future gutting in the next 2 seasons. You could even create a rule that only allows teams to have so many 18 and 19 year old players on their NHL roster as part of the agreement.

An agreement that dictates how many 18 and 19 year old players from the CHL can be on an NHL roster while allowing for 18 and 19 year olds in the AHL might actually help the CHL as much as it hurts it. It also forces NHL teams to choose wisely which of their prospects (and potential future draftees they may see coming their way) they deem ready to bring up early. Maybe the Penguins have Crosby, but not Staal as an 18 year old. Maybe an elite player ends up in the CHL for one more year. I'm sure something could be worked out that benefits all parties to some degree. ('Tis the season after all. )

I just want allow for NHL teams to have another option in special cases. I'm not out to ruin the CHL and realize why you wouldn't want to remove too much talent from the league because you want it to stay at a certain level of competition. However, I am out to fill this page up (and the HFBoards database) with my words.

@Ol'TH - Few have my gift for placing lots of text on one HFBoards page, so don't lose any sleep about it. You are equally awesome in your own special way.

,
Mitch


Last edited by mitchy22: 08-21-2012 at 01:14 AM. Reason: added more words *gasp*
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Old
08-21-2012, 08:09 AM
  #110
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Kindly elaborate- I don't see Strome even having the same kind of AHL season that Cizikas just had...think about the seasoning Casey has had- that extra year of development is huge at this point.

I think you are severely underestimating CC's abilities, and perhaps looking at RS's overtime goal a little too closely here.
I honestly put almost zero stock in AHL numbers. If AHL success meant anything guys like Tambellini and Papineau would have been NHL All-Stars. I respect that Cizikas had a productive year in Bridgeport, but from what I've seen from him I just don't see him becoming much more than a solid 3rd line center who could pot 30 or 40 points in a good year.

If he were to start next season as our 2nd line center I'm pretty confident that we will be one of the fewest scoring teams in the league. He lacks the offensive creativity that Strome brings to the game, and wouldn't get a quarter of the production out of Bailey and Okposo that Strome would(assuming those two are our 2nd line wingers).

The overtime goal literally has nothing to do with my opinion of Strome as far as this coming season goes. Once I realized the Islanders weren't bringing in a true 2nd line center, my assumption was that Strome will get every opportunity to win the job in camp(and I expect him to).

Nothing against CC. I've said numerous times on this board that I really like his game and see him being a part of the future here, but I don't expect him to ever produce 2nd-line caliber offense, much less produce at that level in 2012-13. I would love to be wrong about him, and will gladly eat crow if it comes to it, but I just don't see it happening.

As far as Strome goes, I really wouldn't be surprised to see him become an impact player out of the gate. Especially if Bailey and Okposo are both ready to elevate their respective games.

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08-21-2012, 10:31 AM
  #111
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I honestly put almost zero stock in AHL numbers. If AHL success meant anything guys like Tambellini and Papineau would have been NHL All-Stars. I respect that Cizikas had a productive year in Bridgeport, but from what I've seen from him I just don't see him becoming much more than a solid 3rd line center who could pot 30 or 40 points in a good year.

If he were to start next season as our 2nd line center I'm pretty confident that we will be one of the fewest scoring teams in the league. He lacks the offensive creativity that Strome brings to the game, and wouldn't get a quarter of the production out of Bailey and Okposo that Strome would(assuming those two are our 2nd line wingers).

The overtime goal literally has nothing to do with my opinion of Strome as far as this coming season goes. Once I realized the Islanders weren't bringing in a true 2nd line center, my assumption was that Strome will get every opportunity to win the job in camp(and I expect him to).

Nothing against CC. I've said numerous times on this board that I really like his game and see him being a part of the future here, but I don't expect him to ever produce 2nd-line caliber offense, much less produce at that level in 2012-13. I would love to be wrong about him, and will gladly eat crow if it comes to it, but I just don't see it happening.

As far as Strome goes, I really wouldn't be surprised to see him become an impact player out of the gate. Especially if Bailey and Okposo are both ready to elevate their respective games.
Cizikas will play third-line centre- Frans will remain as the #2.

Cizikas will out-point Strome by virtue of the fact that he simply won't be rushed, and won't make the team.

This is not to say that Cizikas has greater offensive potential than Strome.

And he certainly won't have to rely on Bailey and Okposo (or anyone) to get his points.

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08-21-2012, 02:28 PM
  #112
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Cizikas will play third-line centre- Frans will remain as the #2.
If Nielsen is our 2nd line center again we should all hope Tavares becomes a 100+ scorer next season.

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Originally Posted by bluechipbonzo View Post
Cizikas will out-point Strome by virtue of the fact that he simply won't be rushed, and won't make the team.
No offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Considering I highly doubt either of Snow or Capuano know at this point whether or not Strome will be here, I don't see how you would.

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And he certainly won't have to rely on Bailey and Okposo (or anyone) to get his points.
Pretty sure I never said he would have to rely on anyone, but if that's how you took my post I apologize.

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