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Who's better? Helm vs Stoll

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Old
08-17-2012, 01:07 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Eh, if you actually watched enough of our games last season there were plenty of times when Helm's line couldn't get out of its own zone. Helm has one very good trait in his speed and due to that trait it gets blown far out of proportion. He's a solid bottom 6 center and I like him but he's not the player Stoll is as far as the overall attributes and skills Stoll has. Helm registered 50 fewer hits than Justin Abdelkader so it's not like Helm's some demon possessed on the forecheck. Hell, he had one more takeaway than the immortal Drew Miller and was tied in takeaways with Dan Cleary and his ****ed up knees.

LEGEND!!!!
Because stats means everything.

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08-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #27
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Helm! With his new bionically repaired arm he is gonna have the wrist shot of Joe Sakic and the slap shot of Al Macinnis! Titanium tendons! Easy 80 goals!

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08-17-2012, 01:41 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
You don't see a level of bias involved there? It's his own player. He's talking him up, as Babcock often does with his players. If Babcock coached LA, he'd say the same about Stoll, and wouldn't mention Helm. Find me a quote from LA coaches/management saying Helm is the best 3rd line center in the game and I'll grant your appeal to authority some validity
You know it's perfect plausible that he just truly believes it. Not everything should be a witch hunt for bias or favortism. It's not like Babs hasn't talked up players on other teams and ripped our own. What exactly makes Stoll better? Point totals? The guy plays on the PP, that's not 3rd line, that's the PP. Straight up third line, you can shut down Stoll with some work. Helm is a nightmare to play against. The Stoll love here just reeks of reputation and greener grass syndrome. I'd take Stoll if we were discussing who is better in the top six, but this obviously is about third line center and I'm not sending out third liners to score, I'm sending them out to cause havoc and make life tough for opposing players. Just ask Ed Jovonovski about that.

I'm too lazy to look but didn't Stoll take 30 or 35 penalties to Helm's 6? And not even outscore him? Goals or points? IIRC. And that's with PP time and none for Helm.

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08-17-2012, 02:01 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
You know it's perfect plausible that he just truly believes it. Not everything should be a witch hunt for bias or favortism.
Yes, of course he could believe it. But he's still biased. And that's not a witch hunt in any sense. He's the Wings coach. He's biased by default. But again, even if we lend credence to his supposed opinion, with biased removed, who else in the hockey world has said Helm is the best 3rd line center in the game? If we are going to appeal to authority, let's not cherry-pick.


Quote:
What exactly makes Stoll better? Point totals? The guy plays on the PP, that's not 3rd line, that's the PP. Straight up third line, you can shut down Stoll with some work. Helm is a nightmare to play against.
Stoll is better offensively, defensively, is more physical, blocks more shots, and is better in the circle. Altogether, that trumps Helm's advantages in speed and forechecking, imo. And it makes Stoll the better 3rd-liner.


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The Stoll love here just reeks of reputation and greener grass syndrome.
This is a red herring. I can just as easily say that the Helm love here reeks of rose-tinted glasses and homerism. But that would also be a red herring.

The bottom line is that this comparison is subjective, and there will be different opinions based on people making different valuations. For me, Stoll is the more complete player, and a more prototypical 3rd-liner. Helm's style/makeup is more that of a 4th-liner, though he is obviously too good to be on the 4th-line. So he's an out-of-place 3rd-liner, albeit a very good one.

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08-17-2012, 02:06 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
Meh, those stats are both subjective and pretty lame. Abdelkader being credited as the team's hit leader is proof enough (and top 10 in the NHL....really?). Remember that game vs Columus they credited Detroit being outhit 33-2? It's a relatively pointless thing to look at. Takeaways are much the same.

And yes there are obviously times when he gets stuck in his own zone (it happens to Datsyuk after all). I think it's fairly well known he's nothing special defensively. But IMO it was pretty obvious there aren't many other lines that keep opponents stuck in their zone the way the Wings' 3rd line did last year.
What you argue is something that is highly subjective. I cut through your subjectivity with actual data and you dismiss it but add absolutely nothing. There's one area where Helm is clearly better than Stoll: drawing penalties. This is a direct byproduct of his speed.

What else is there? That isn't subjective? MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 08-24-2012 at 11:38 PM. Reason: flaming
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08-17-2012, 02:13 PM
  #31
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Ways to measure 3rd liners on "stats"

I think Faceoff % should be a big deal for a 3C, especially if he is counted on for defense.

I would also look at PK time on ice (to determine how valuable he is on the PK (according to the coach)).

Actual Point totals.

... thats about it?

Penalties drawn could be measured.
+/- is unreliable, so are "takeaways' and 'giveaways'

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08-17-2012, 03:04 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
What you argue is something that is highly subjective. I cut through your subjectivity with actual data and you dismiss it but add absolutely nothing. There's one area where Helm is clearly better than Stoll: drawing penalties. This is a direct byproduct of his speed.

What else is there? That isn't subjective? That can actually be expressed in terms intelligent people understand?
That's just it, it's subjective, it comes down to an opinion having watched him play. I don't think anyone keeps time in opposing/own zone stats or individual time of possession. There isn't anything that isn't subjective you can use to quantify a good forechecker, so there's nothing to add, it's an opinion. I was simply pointing out that the stats you brought up are subjective as well. If you want to go by stats then fine, but heck, Helm's stat line makes him look like a downright mediocre player, which I think you can agree is not the case.

And drawing penalties is just as likely to be caused by possession of the puck in the opponent's zone. I don't think you can say it's just a by product of his speed.

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08-17-2012, 04:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
That's just it, it's subjective, it comes down to an opinion having watched him play. I don't think anyone keeps time in opposing/own zone stats or individual time of possession. There isn't anything that isn't subjective you can use to quantify a good forechecker, so there's nothing to add, it's an opinion. I was simply pointing out that the stats you brought up are subjective as well. If you want to go by stats then fine, but heck, Helm's stat line makes him look like a downright mediocre player, which I think you can agree is not the case.

And drawing penalties is just as likely to be caused by possession of the puck in the opponent's zone. I don't think you can say it's just a by product of his speed.
Of course it's a byproduct of his speed. If he gets the puck and the only player back is a defenseman who doesn't have an angle you can be sure he's going to be tempted to obstruct Helm in some way: hooking, interference, tripping, what have you. It's entirely based on his speed. So even something as plain as day to anyone who has watched Helm play and you can't even make a declarative statement on that?

Oh but you're real sure Helm is a better player than Stoll. I'm guessing your subjectivism relies heavily on the fact you don't watch Stoll play much.

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08-17-2012, 07:46 PM
  #34
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I'll take Helm, all things considered.

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08-18-2012, 12:39 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Yes, of course he could believe it. But he's still biased. And that's not a witch hunt in any sense. He's the Wings coach. He's biased by default. But again, even if we lend credence to his supposed opinion, with biased removed, who else in the hockey world has said Helm is the best 3rd line center in the game? If we are going to appeal to authority, let's not cherry-pick.
No, he's not biased by default. I could easily say using various quotes and comments over the years that he can be said to be very honest and blunt, and even possibly dislike certain players here. It may not be true but hey, a good argument can be made even for things that aren't true. But I see no reason why Babcock would just randomly be biased about this. Personally, I don't really care who else says it either. For one, I haven't went and looked because I don't care, and two, Helm isn't very known. Reputation doesn't magically change talent. He's underrated and lesser known. I know it's a psychological thing and there's comfort in numbers but why does mass opinion really matter? Also, another perfectly logical and plausible conclusion would be that he's an NHL head coach, one of the best, and you're a guy on a message board. If we're going to use that bias thing for no better reason than it might well be true then we have to use this too. He seems pretty qualified to know what he's talking about. Why doesn't he just call all his guys the best players in the game?




Quote:
Stoll is better offensively, defensively, is more physical, blocks more shots, and is better in the circle. Altogether, that trumps Helm's advantages in speed and forechecking, imo. And it makes Stoll the better 3rd-liner.
Stoll couldn't even outscore Helm, and that's while playing on the PP with some seriously skilled players. Not to mention the fact that Helm didn't play on the PP, and was rarely used in offensive zone starts. Stoll is not better defensively and the difference in blocked shots is so small it's useless. The faceoff thing, sure, but I'm not going to let that magically overshadow the fact that Stoll isn't nearly as hard to play against. His forecheck isn't as good, his hitting is overrated much in the way Abdelkader's is. Not to mention the fact that Helm draws penalties like no one else, and Stoll doesn't. In fact, Helm almost never takes penalties and Stoll had what, 30 of 'em? And there's just the things you can't put into stats because they aren't everything. Helm is just much, much more of a headache to play against.




Quote:
This is a red herring. I can just as easily say that the Helm love here reeks of rose-tinted glasses and homerism. But that would also be a red herring.
Yeah, if it wasn't true and was just a tool to try and "win" an argument. Fortunately I don't have that on the brain 24/7 and was just being honest. You'd think Stoll is some sort of demigod around here. You see it on other boards, too. Players from our own team we hate or dislike or whatever are treated with much more respect by other fans doing what we're doing with Stoll. It's natural but we don't even realize we're doing it.


And fabricoh, you know full well that stats can be spun and don't tell the whole story. Don't act like that's not true because it suits your case.

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08-18-2012, 01:33 PM
  #36
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I think Babs is just pumping up his tires to try to motivate him. He'd do it with Hudler from time to time. I think it's a motivational tactic he uses.
This is one of those "logical" things that seems to come up all the time on forums. I think Babcock firmly believes Helm is the best 3rd line center in the NHL. NHL.com seems to think that Helm is the teams entire X-factor.

What makes no sense to me is "pump the tires" Just do it in the locker room, then. Why do it in the media? If Babcock is just pumping his tires..aka...lying about Helm, he'll open mouth and insert foot one day; slip of the tongue so to speak. I don't think that's what Babcock/what the Red Wings are about.

Fans like Helm. NHL.com is sold on him. The hockey magazines my son gets are drooling over Helm...and Babcock/Holland love him too. During the trade deadline/FA...wasn't Helm (Flips as well) asked in most of the trades as well? Other GM's are onto something.

As for other teams? Of course they will say their 3rd line center is better. You'll here other coaches/GM's say how better their superstar is than the other teams superstar is. Hockey politics... But Babcock said what he said about Helm on his own accord, is several interviews...he wasn't asked "do you think you have the best 3rd line center".

Also...if Helm needs motivation...what would give Babcock the impression that Helm, one of hardest working Red Wings, needs motivation? Crap...use this tactic on Franzen!


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Old
08-18-2012, 03:22 PM
  #37
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I think it's pretty close.

Stoll is better defensively and more physical. Helm is faster and a bit more of a puck hound on the forecheck.

The stats from last year suggest that Helm is a better offensive player. But there's one major aside to that; Stoll's primary linemates were Dustin Penner and Trevor Lewis; they totaled 23 ES points and Stoll himself scored 13 ESP. Helm's primary linemates were Drew Miller and Dan Cleary, who totaled 55 ES points and Helm himself posted 26 ESP. So Helm clearly had an advantage in the offensive talent of who he was playing with. Stoll has shown significant offensive talent in the past and is used by LA on the power play, so we will call the offensive situation "even".

Going forward, Helm will be better. If you absolutely had to rank them, Stoll is probably a tiny bit better right now.

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08-18-2012, 03:48 PM
  #38
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Jarret Stoll is better offensively, on faceoffs, defensively, and more physical. Not sure why anyone would think Helm is better. Yes he is a huge threat on the PK to get shots to the goalie's chest and he also creates plenty of "havoc" on the forecheck but that doesn't make him better. He is certainly valuable and an elite 4th line center and a very good 3rd line center(top 10 out of 30). But Stoll is a better player and most unbiased fans can see that.

People change their tune about fan favorites pretty soon after they are gone. I remember Dallas Stars fans talking about Steve Ott as the best 3rd line center because of his physical play, faceoffs, defensive game and the way he gets under the other team's skin. He was a fan favorite and overrated by the fans because of it. But now you can find Dallas fans arguing that he took too many penalties and he didn't provide enough offense, ect ect. Fan favorites are where the real homers come in to argue. Helm is the perfect example. Now I am not saying he isn't a good player, he certainly is. And he certainly is more valuable than his stats suggest, but still Stoll is better.

Did I really see someone use Helms coach's comment to prove he is the best 3rd line center in the game? lol. I remember a couple years ago people were using that argument for why Hudler would put up 70 points.

Quote:
"Well, I think it's 70 points," Babcock said Monday when asked about Hudler's return from Russia next season. "That's 70 points we didn't have.
Hudler finished well below 70 points BTW....he had 37 points.

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08-18-2012, 05:09 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Jarret Stoll is better offensively, on faceoffs, defensively, and more physical. Not sure why anyone would think Helm is better. Yes he is a huge threat on the PK to get shots to the goalie's chest and he also creates plenty of "havoc" on the forecheck but that doesn't make him better. He is certainly valuable and an elite 4th line center and a very good 3rd line center(top 10 out of 30). But Stoll is a better player and most unbiased fans can see that.
You're underrating Helm's offense here. He did play with better linemates than Stoll, but Helm posted 26 points in 68 games last year, with no PP time. Stoll had 13 at ES an 8 on the PP in 78 games, and scored fewer total points than 11 Wings forwards and ESP than ten.

Quote:
People change their tune about fan favorites pretty soon after they are gone. I remember Dallas Stars fans talking about Steve Ott as the best 3rd line center because of his physical play, faceoffs, defensive game and the way he gets under the other team's skin. He was a fan favorite and overrated by the fans because of it. But now you can find Dallas fans arguing that he took too many penalties and he didn't provide enough offense, ect ect. Fan favorites are where the real homers come in to argue. Helm is the perfect example. Now I am not saying he isn't a good player, he certainly is. And he certainly is more valuable than his stats suggest, but still Stoll is better.
If Helm is more valuable than the stats suggest, he should be making something close to $4m. People bag on his offense but he's actually put up some pretty solid numbers.

Quote:
Did I really see someone use Helms coach's comment to prove he is the best 3rd line center in the game? lol. I remember a couple years ago people were using that argument for why Hudler would put up 70 points.

Hudler finished well below 70 points BTW....he had 37 points.
This thread is so incredibly not about Hudler that your dislike of him needs to leave. But I will put in this one point; after Hudler's early-season slump from being played with other slumping players and Babcock's refusal to break up other lines to try and get those players (Modano and Cleary) going, Hudler finally got his rhythm going around Christmas and spent a month at close to 70-point pace, and another month at close to a 100-point pace. He finished the season with 31 points in his last 43 games, despite spending many of those games on the third or fourth line.

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08-18-2012, 05:13 PM
  #40
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helm should play with datsyuk imo

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08-18-2012, 06:46 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Did I really see someone use Helms coach's comment to prove he is the best 3rd line center in the game? lol. I remember a couple years ago people were using that argument for why Hudler would put up 70 points.



Hudler finished well below 70 points BTW....he had 37 points.
Thanks for pulling this quote up. I mentioned it but it's awesome someone else was able to pull the direct quote, so thanks for that.

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08-18-2012, 06:58 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Thanks for pulling this quote up. I mentioned it but it's awesome someone else was able to pull the direct quote, so thanks for that.
Not playing mod... but please remind me why you are so thankful that someone brought that quote about Hudler up in a thread titled "Who's better? Helm vs Stoll".

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08-18-2012, 07:01 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Not playing mod... but please remind me why you are so thankful that someone brought that quote about Hudler up in a thread titled "Who's better? Helm vs Stoll".
Don't whine. Part of the justification for why some here are arguing Helm is better is because Babs said Helm is the best 3rd line pivot in the whole NHL. Possibly the entire freaking world, we can never really tell when Babs gets on one of his rolls. So we have pointed out that Babs says all sorts of bat **** crazy stuff in an effort to build up his guys. He's done it with E and he did it with Hudler.

The point isn't that we are ripping on Hudler - this one time we're actually not - it's that we are pointing out you cannot use Babcock as a reliable source for your viewpoint when rating Detroit Red Wings. Heck, he'd probably say Justin Abdelkader is the best fighter in the league if you asked him.

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08-19-2012, 01:20 AM
  #44
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^It's hilarious how badly you clearly want it to be biased. Why is bias any more likely than truly believing it? Why doesn't he just label all his guys "the best ___ in the game?". Why just randomly cherry pick Darren Helm? But we're forum rats, everything must be bias. Must be. Anytime anyone ever has an opinion, NHL coach, fan, anyone, we're there to police their credibility and judge their subjectivity. And those who feel Stoll is better and want to "win" the argument are sitting here desperately (with their own bias ironically enough) trying to discredit Mike Babcock. That's the funniest part to me.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I think it's pretty close.

Stoll is better defensively and more physical. Helm is faster and a bit more of a puck hound on the forecheck.

The stats from last year suggest that Helm is a better offensive player. But there's one major aside to that; Stoll's primary linemates were Dustin Penner and Trevor Lewis; they totaled 23 ES points and Stoll himself scored 13 ESP. Helm's primary linemates were Drew Miller and Dan Cleary, who totaled 55 ES points and Helm himself posted 26 ESP. So Helm clearly had an advantage in the offensive talent of who he was playing with. Stoll has shown significant offensive talent in the past and is used by LA on the power play, so we will call the offensive situation "even".

Going forward, Helm will be better. If you absolutely had to rank them, Stoll is probably a tiny bit better right now.
Penner is better offensively than Cleary and Miller and I don't consider this an excuse. Cleary 2-3 years ago was pretty good, but Cleary last year was garbage. It's debatable but to me what isn't debatable is that you should outscore a guy playing a similar role, while you get PP time and he gets none. And the difference between Penner/Lewis and Miller/Cleary doesn't bridge that.

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08-19-2012, 02:58 AM
  #45
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Helm is the best player drawing penalties in the whole league per ice-time (with Jeff Skinner). That's some undervalued stat that really has huge affect to the momentum at games.

We have seen it many times that Wings could be under pressure, Helm takes the puck and skates with it till the other end and creates a scoring chance and opposite team will have to take a penalty. Wings PP comes and scores. Thanks to Darren Helm.

He is kind of one of the biggest factors in our power-play, even though he doesn't play in the units.

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08-19-2012, 12:14 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Penner is better offensively than Cleary and Miller and I don't consider this an excuse. Cleary 2-3 years ago was pretty good, but Cleary last year was garbage.
Penner last year had 17 points in 65 games. Cleary's bad season saw him do far better than Penner. For that matter, Penner has outscored Cleary in only one of the past four seasons.

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08-19-2012, 12:56 PM
  #47
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Stoll is a better all around player than Helm.

If Datsyuk and Zetterberg were gasping, who would I want for the final 30 seconds of a hockey game with a faceoff in our end??

Stoll.

But Helm has a pretty unique set of skills too. In some ways, I think Helm is wasted at center, because he used to hit an awful lot. But maybe, given how small he is, it's good to get him off the wall, where he'd probably be hurt a lot.

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08-19-2012, 02:01 PM
  #48
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Penner last year had 17 points in 65 games. Cleary's bad season saw him do far better than Penner. For that matter, Penner has outscored Cleary in only one of the past four seasons.
Stoll didn't score much either but apparently he's still not only good offensively but better than Helm. Not sure where this logic begins and ends.

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08-24-2012, 08:09 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
^It's hilarious how badly you clearly want it to be biased. Why is bias any more likely than truly believing it? Why doesn't he just label all his guys "the best ___ in the game?". Why just randomly cherry pick Darren Helm? But we're forum rats, everything must be bias. Must be. Anytime anyone ever has an opinion, NHL coach, fan, anyone, we're there to police their credibility and judge their subjectivity. And those who feel Stoll is better and want to "win" the argument are sitting here desperately (with their own bias ironically enough) trying to discredit Mike Babcock. That's the funniest part to me.


Penner is better offensively than Cleary and Miller and I don't consider this an excuse. Cleary 2-3 years ago was pretty good, but Cleary last year was garbage. It's debatable but to me what isn't debatable is that you should outscore a guy playing a similar role, while you get PP time and he gets none. And the difference between Penner/Lewis and Miller/Cleary doesn't bridge that.
Penner is better offensively than Cleary and Miller?

Penner scored 6-10-16 in 65 games at ES last year plus 1 PPG. Miller scored 14-11-25 in 80 games at ES with no PP time. So let's add 15 games (just shy of 25%) to Penner's stats; we get 7-12-19 at ES. Stunning.

And Cleary's 30 ES points was the highest number of any player on either line.

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08-24-2012, 10:38 PM
  #50
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MOD

As much fun as it is to disagree with fabricoh, I have to side with him/her/it/they on this one. Babcock calling Helm the best 3rd line center doesn't make it so. Helm is certainly arguable for that title, but Babcock's comments hold ZERO weight.

And fabricoh, your comment about Babs motivating Hudler is bunk btw; he started Huds on the third line with Modano and Cleary that year and didn't bring him higher until the Wings were pounded with injuries, at which point Hudler started to produce points like a god-damned machine. But once Franzen went cold (ice cold! 2 goals in 27 games to end the year!) Hudler was exiled to the third and fourth lines despite the fact he had just scored 14 points in 11 games in February to outscore his linemates (Datsyuk and Cleary, 12 each).

Details on that HDC line:
Overall scoring:
Hudler 4-10-14
Datsyuk 7-5-12
Cleary 6-6-12

ES scoring:
Hudler 3-9-12
Cleary 5-5-10
Datsyuk 5-3-8

ES scoring involving one or more of linemates:

Hudler 2-8-10
Cleary 5-4-9
Datsyuk 4-2-6

Hudler proved in that stretch that Babcock's prediction wasn't outlandish; but Babcock then banished him to the no-ice-time region of the roster despite his performance. Only furthering the idea that Babs plays favorites.

The real question is... if somehow Kenny pulled off a deal and added Stoll at the cost of one of Emmerton/Eaves/Miller/Mursak, who centers the third line? Helm or Stoll? I know what I think would happen.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-24-2012 at 11:34 PM. Reason: qdp
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