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Old
08-18-2012, 04:57 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
You at least need to bring SOME offense at this level to maximize the efficiency of a top line.

I don't think Renberg brings that.
I think of the Renberg before he needed to take needleinjection before every game. A young Renberg provides what a first line needs.

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08-18-2012, 05:01 PM
  #102
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I think of the Renberg before he needed to take needleinjection before every game. A young Renberg provides what a first line needs.
Sure, a young Renberg that lasted a year and a half. I totally agree if he would have kept that up he'd have been great for this role.

But he only did it for a year and a half.

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08-18-2012, 05:09 PM
  #103
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Sure, a young Renberg that lasted a year and a half. I totally agree if he would have kept that up he'd have been great for this role.

But he only did it for a year and a half.
Are we discrediting his international resume now? He did also have a pretty good showing for the coyotes in the playoffs. All as a glue guy.

Glue guys usually helps greater linemates and to be honest after legion of doom he wasn't really blessed with them all that often. One might notice that with 38 points he was actually 2nd in scoring in Tampa (Ysebeart had 40).

He had a reasonable pace for a glue guy during most seasons.

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08-18-2012, 05:15 PM
  #104
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Well, not strictly Ronning or Ftorek from the way things can go. The intention of grabbing a guy like Plett with the kind of offensive output he showed in his prime (2 30+ goal seasons, 4 more 20+ goal seasons) was for some toughness with scoring ability that can play higher if necessary. Having the Stastnys on separate lines but together on the PP certainly is a concept I've considered here using that concept. Plett, while not the strongest top 6er, would definitely bring that policeman element to the Anton-Ronning or Anton-Ftorek line while still being able to chip in offensively, just not nearly to the extent of Marian. However I would say that Vickers-Ronning-Marian or Vickers-Ftorek-Marian would be a pretty strong in basically all aspects. Milks in the top 6 is also an option. While not ideal to have him playing out of position, he did play both C and LW in the league showing that he has some versatility to his offensive game, and he did lead the Pirates in scoring 4 of his 6 years there.

Hooper, from everything I've read about him, is a good defensive player (moved to cover point), fast skater, tenacious checker, and good although streaky goal scorer. Nothing overly excellent about him aside from his speed, but just a good all-around guy. The intent with that 3rd line was to have 3 solid (though not outstanding) guys defensively that are more then capable in their own right offensively on the counter attack, one of the areas that Sami was exceptional in due to his speed and with Hooper's reputation as a very strong skater would make for a strong line. It's also one that won't get pushed around much as while neither Hooper or Merrick are exactly tough guys, they're not lacking in that regard either.

And spot on with the 4th line, it's the biggest reason I drafted Presley, as an option to stick there from time to time. I think that might prove to be one of the stronger defensive forward units of the draft if that's what I end up going with.

Kampman's short prime is pretty easy to explain: World War II. Basically in his prime years he was enlisted in the military and by the time the war ended he was 31 and the Leafs had already filled his roster spot.

Buller's a case with more hypotheticals to him. He was dominant in the AHL at a time when that meant something, and had an outstanding "rookie" season in the NHL and his next one wasn't too bad either.

Chidlovski has Stelnov and Starikov listed with over 100 games with the Soviet team apiece, (153 and 186 respectively) so I'd say they both have significant standing on those teams. Stelnov's also 5 years younger, which helps explain the Soviet games played differential. Essentially, Stelnov actually made the Soviet team at a younger age then Starikov, but due to the age difference Starikov basically had a head start of 18 meaningful (Olympics, Worlds) games. Stelnov never had the chance to catch up due to the fall of the Soviet Union.

As for Ward, believe me I know that one's going to be hit or miss with some people. Basically, he still puts up solid numbers despite playing behind what has arguably been the worst defensive team in the league over the last 4 seasons (which is basically the time frame we have to use as his prime in this since anything else is hypothetical). The one season of his prime where the defense wasn't hot garbage, the team made it to the Conference Finals where he was hurt in game 1. But essentially this is what I'm looking at: Ward's prime and the context under which it's been played, and Ward's playoff numbers vs the numbers of similar goalies (and their playoff numbers) under similar contexts. Ward stands up very well in that regard. Matter of fact the only one of his contemporaries that has distinctly better numbers is either regard is Giguere, who also had the advantage of playing behind a defensive juggernaut in his prime when he won his cup. He was also drafted a good 5 rounds before Cam (and I agreed with it, I had Giguere higher on my shortlist as he is more proven).

But in comparison with say Ryan Miller, Cam's regular season numbers over the past 4 years are basically identical in terms of sv% with his (both goalies primes FWIW), and for their career they have identical playoff sv% with Cam having a better record and winning their head to head matchup. Basically Miller has the Vezina, Cam has one Smythe and was on the fasttrack towards another one before getting injured in Game 1 vs Pittsburgh and the team getting derailed by the Malkin express.

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Old
08-18-2012, 05:19 PM
  #105
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Quality

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If that's the case, then why was Ftorek so effective in the wide open WHA, yet he got clamped down on and had a career high of 73 points in the tighter checking NHL?



According to behindthenet, his most common ES partners were:

07-08: Kubina
08-09: Kubina

09-10: Komisarek
10-11: Luke Schenn

Komisarek and Schenn are very similar players to Milbury, and Kubina was not a fast partner, nor a big contributor to the transition game as far as I know. The majority of his points came from his big shot on the power play. Before those years, you'd have to ask a Leafs fan who his usual partner was.
Overall quality of the NHL was much better than the WHA and Ftorek was no ;onger the first line center with first line PP time.

Kubina was able to take pressure of Kaberle plus Kubina was a RHS so clearing the zone with a LHS Kaberle was efficient :

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...kubinpa01.html

two 40 point seasons testify to his offensive and transition strengths.

Komisarek only played 34 games in 2009-10 so he was not a factor.
Schenn adjusted to era, a RHS was an effective pairing with Kaberle.

Milbury was a LHS who was on a strong offensive team, often playing with Brad Park which inflated his limited offensive and covered his lack of transition game.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-18-2012 at 05:36 PM.
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08-18-2012, 05:58 PM
  #106
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Did the way the Canadian team was selected change significantly into the 1950s?
Yes. From 1948-1954 the Canadians didn't send their best amateur teams. There were discussions after Czechoslovakia had managed to defeat the Sudbury Wolves in 1949, but nothing came out of it. The Czechoslovak team disappeared in the abyss anyway and Canada was able to regain the upper hand without picking the best amateur teams. Then the Soviets appeared and defeated the East York Lyndhursts in 1954. Canada reacted and started sending the Allan Cup Champions. Penticton V's in 1955 (won Gold), Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen in 1956 (behind the USSR), Whitby Dunlops in 1958 (won Gold), Belleville McFarlands in 1959 (won Gold), Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen (Allan Cup Semifinalist) in 1960 (handled the Europeans, but behind the Americans), Chatham Maroons in 1961 (won Gold), Galt Terriers in 1962 (behind Sweden), Trail Smoke Eaters in 1962 (behind the USSR, Sweden and Czechoslovakia).

1948-1954: Modest teams.
1955-1962: Top amateur teams.
1963-1969: Canadian national team.

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Old
08-18-2012, 06:40 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Yes. From 1948-1954 the Canadians didn't send their best amateur teams. There were discussions after Czechoslovakia had managed to defeat the Sudbury Wolves in 1949, but nothing came out of it. The Czechoslovak team disappeared in the abyss anyway and Canada was able to regain the upper hand without picking the best amateur teams. Then the Soviets appeared and defeated the East York Lyndhursts in 1954. Canada reacted and started sending the Allan Cup Champions. Penticton V's in 1955 (won Gold), Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen in 1956 (behind the USSR), Whitby Dunlops in 1958 (won Gold), Belleville McFarlands in 1959 (won Gold), Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen (Allan Cup Semifinalist) in 1960 (handled the Europeans, but behind the Americans), Chatham Maroons in 1961 (won Gold), Galt Terriers in 1962 (behind Sweden), Trail Smoke Eaters in 1962 (behind the USSR, Sweden and Czechoslovakia).

1948-1954: Modest teams.
1955-1962: Top amateur teams.
1963-1969: Canadian national team.
During this period Canada would send the best eligible team based on IIHF and Olympic definitions of amateur. At the time NHL teams had sponsorship arrangements with Senior Amateur teams and leagues. Such teams could win the Allan Cup but were not IIHF or Olympic eligible.

Post 1956, Canada did not participate in 1957 but subsequent Allan Cup winners or runner-ups were reinforced by eligible senior amateurs and/or juniors - 1960 KW had juniors Bobby Rousseau and Cliff Pennington added plus seniors like Harry Sinden

The 1961 WC gold medal winners were the Trail Smoke Eaters - link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_Smoke_Eaters


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-18-2012 at 06:47 PM. Reason: addition
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Old
08-18-2012, 07:05 PM
  #108
Mike Farkas
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Medicine Hat Tricks


GM: Mike Farkas
Head Coach: Claude Julien
Captain: Shorty Green
Alternates: Teddy Graham and Rob Zamuner

Dubbie Kerr - Gus Bodnar - Alexander Kozhevnikov
Tony McKegney - Patrice Bergeron - Wayne Babych
Andre Pronovost - Terry Crisp - Scott Young
Dave Tippett - Rob Zamuner - Shorty Green


Brian Campbell - Bill Brydge
Percy Traub - Ted Graham
Bob Trapp - Dale Tallon

S: Wilf Cude
B: Sean Burke

X: Skene Ronan
X: Risto Siltanen
X: Frank "Coddy" Winters
X: Bryan Watson

PP1: B.Campbell-S.Young | D.Kerr-G.Bodnar-A.Kozhevnikov
PP2: D.Tallon-T.Graham | T.McKegney-P.Bergeron-W.Babych

(any d-man could sub-in for Graham virtually, as they have similar offensive resumes, if and when Siltanen dresses he'll move up to the 1st unit probably and slide Scott Young down to the second with Tallon; Shorty Green could aptly fill in at forward as well on either unit)

PK1: B.Brydge-P.Traub | T.Crisp-R.Zamuner
PK2: B.Campbell-T.Graham | P.Bergeron-D.Tippett

(again, any d-man can slip in and penalty kill adequately. If and when Bryan Watson dresses he could play anywhere on the PK units, especially on the backline; Andre Pronovost and Shorty Green would be capable of killing off penalties effectively as well)

Versatile, fast, smart and excellent defensively. Medicine Hat features many multi-position players up and down the lineup for optimal versatility in any situation. Plug and play players that, for the most part, can play in any situation and excel. Puck distributors such as Brian Campbell and Gus Bodnar will have no problem as catalysts for transition offense and they have a multitude of superior snipers at their disposal such as Kozhevnikov, Babych, McKegney, Kerr, Young, etc. The forwards and defense are strong enough to win board battles consistently with the speed to make good use of the possession wins. Up and down the lineup, there is plenty of scoring to be had without sacrificing one iota of defensive play. Offense can be manufactured readily, especially by the bottom three lines, the top line can create more organic forms of offense if/when a goal is needed. However, with this structure and coaching and stellar goaltending, a well played game can be won one to nothing.

There's seldom (if ever) been a dynasty that did not have a #1 puck-moving d-man at the helm and Brian Campbell is just that. Efficient defensively, clean and with a terrific breakout pass. Also an excellent power play quarterback and set up man (does a remarkable job of setting up players for one-timers, I'm looking at Dale Tallon, Siltanen (when dressed) and Scott Young). Many of his partners are well-versed in the physical aspects of the game and can carry the puck quite well (Teddy Graham is a noted puck-rusher) in his absence. Depth and versatility come in to play when different situations arise...if more offense needs to be generated, Scott Young played defense in his career, and every single spare has played defense at some point in their career. Watson can be used as a defensive specialist and penalty killer. Siltanen as a power play specialist. Ronan and Winters can play any position and excel.

Additionally, all the spares have played forward (except Siltanen) at some point in their respective careers as well. Ronan has a number of quality point finishes, Winters was considered one of the finest players of his day on the American scene and Watson can play antagonist when the going gets rough and distract opponents with his take-no-prisoners style. Additionally, Dale Tallon has played all the forward positions in his career and could jump into the offense as needed.

With Claude Julien coaching, he's gotten a ton out of his two-way centermen in his career and personally had Patrice Bergeron in his formative years. Rarely does Julien have offensive defensemen at his disposal and when he does, they are hidden in the lineup. With a luxury of many tough, two-way defensemen, Julien will feel right at home with this group. As it is not dissimilar to the core that he's had in Boston as they've been contenders of late and Cup winners in 2011. His ability to make goaltenders look impressive statistically is a product of the low quality shots that he allows. As one could ascertain from his bio, his goaltenders will have impressive numbers regardless of their background. Wilf Cude has an impressive resume and a quality peak, his acrobatic style shouldn't look dissimilar to Tim Thomas (a former scrub turned into a Vezina winner by Julien), while the composed and positionally sound Sean Burke has seen it all in his career and survived the evolution of goaltending that took place in his career in spades. Both goaltenders will be among the tops in the league in terms of goaltending stats.

The team is full of clean, but physical players that were industrious workers during their careers. This team will do a fine job of staying out of the penalty box. Proper defensive tactics are designed to work in a 5v5 situation and this team will have no problem staying at full strength on the rink at all times. Should the odd penalty be taken, the penalty kill unit is more than capable. The versatility of having multiple men that can take faceoffs will be a huge advantage on defensive zone draws as we can cheat on them and not have to worry about being thrown out of the dot. The hockey IQ on this team is ever-present. Many future coaches and executives on this team (Crisp, Tippett, Winters, Burke, Tallon, off hand).

Given Medicine Hat's speed, board work, two-way play, supreme versatility, great goaltending, great coaching and enough firepower to score the requisite number of goals required for victory, they should be a formidable opponent to any team in the league.

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Old
08-18-2012, 09:24 PM
  #109
Canadiens1958
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Defensive Doubts

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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Medicine Hat Tricks


GM: Mike Farkas
Head Coach: Claude Julien
Captain: Shorty Green
Alternates: Teddy Graham and Rob Zamuner

Dubbie Kerr - Gus Bodnar - Alexander Kozhevnikov
Tony McKegney - Patrice Bergeron - Wayne Babych
Andre Pronovost - Terry Crisp - Scott Young
Dave Tippett - Rob Zamuner - Shorty Green


Brian Campbell - Bill Brydge
Percy Traub - Ted Graham
Bob Trapp - Dale Tallon

S: Wilf Cude
B: Sean Burke

X: Skene Ronan
X: Risto Siltanen
X: Frank "Coddy" Winters
X: Bryan Watson

PP1: B.Campbell-S.Young | D.Kerr-G.Bodnar-A.Kozhevnikov
PP2: D.Tallon-T.Graham | T.McKegney-P.Bergeron-W.Babych

(any d-man could sub-in for Graham virtually, as they have similar offensive resumes, if and when Siltanen dresses he'll move up to the 1st unit probably and slide Scott Young down to the second with Tallon; Shorty Green could aptly fill in at forward as well on either unit)

PK1: B.Brydge-P.Traub | T.Crisp-R.Zamuner
PK2: B.Campbell-T.Graham | P.Bergeron-D.Tippett

(again, any d-man can slip in and penalty kill adequately. If and when Bryan Watson dresses he could play anywhere on the PK units, especially on the backline; Andre Pronovost and Shorty Green would be capable of killing off penalties effectively as well)

Versatile, fast, smart and excellent defensively. Medicine Hat features many multi-position players up and down the lineup for optimal versatility in any situation. Plug and play players that, for the most part, can play in any situation and excel. Puck distributors such as Brian Campbell and Gus Bodnar will have no problem as catalysts for transition offense and they have a multitude of superior snipers at their disposal such as Kozhevnikov, Babych, McKegney, Kerr, Young, etc. The forwards and defense are strong enough to win board battles consistently with the speed to make good use of the possession wins. Up and down the lineup, there is plenty of scoring to be had without sacrificing one iota of defensive play. Offense can be manufactured readily, especially by the bottom three lines, the top line can create more organic forms of offense if/when a goal is needed. However, with this structure and coaching and stellar goaltending, a well played game can be won one to nothing.

There's seldom (if ever) been a dynasty that did not have a #1 puck-moving d-man at the helm and Brian Campbell is just that. Efficient defensively, clean and with a terrific breakout pass. Also an excellent power play quarterback and set up man (does a remarkable job of setting up players for one-timers, I'm looking at Dale Tallon, Siltanen (when dressed) and Scott Young). Many of his partners are well-versed in the physical aspects of the game and can carry the puck quite well (Teddy Graham is a noted puck-rusher) in his absence. Depth and versatility come in to play when different situations arise...if more offense needs to be generated, Scott Young played defense in his career, and every single spare has played defense at some point in their career. Watson can be used as a defensive specialist and penalty killer. Siltanen as a power play specialist. Ronan and Winters can play any position and excel.

Additionally, all the spares have played forward (except Siltanen) at some point in their respective careers as well. Ronan has a number of quality point finishes, Winters was considered one of the finest players of his day on the American scene and Watson can play antagonist when the going gets rough and distract opponents with his take-no-prisoners style. Additionally, Dale Tallon has played all the forward positions in his career and could jump into the offense as needed.

With Claude Julien coaching, he's gotten a ton out of his two-way centermen in his career and personally had Patrice Bergeron in his formative years. Rarely does Julien have offensive defensemen at his disposal and when he does, they are hidden in the lineup. With a luxury of many tough, two-way defensemen, Julien will feel right at home with this group. As it is not dissimilar to the core that he's had in Boston as they've been contenders of late and Cup winners in 2011. His ability to make goaltenders look impressive statistically is a product of the low quality shots that he allows. As one could ascertain from his bio, his goaltenders will have impressive numbers regardless of their background. Wilf Cude has an impressive resume and a quality peak, his acrobatic style shouldn't look dissimilar to Tim Thomas (a former scrub turned into a Vezina winner by Julien), while the composed and positionally sound Sean Burke has seen it all in his career and survived the evolution of goaltending that took place in his career in spades. Both goaltenders will be among the tops in the league in terms of goaltending stats.

The team is full of clean, but physical players that were industrious workers during their careers. This team will do a fine job of staying out of the penalty box. Proper defensive tactics are designed to work in a 5v5 situation and this team will have no problem staying at full strength on the rink at all times. Should the odd penalty be taken, the penalty kill unit is more than capable. The versatility of having multiple men that can take faceoffs will be a huge advantage on defensive zone draws as we can cheat on them and not have to worry about being thrown out of the dot. The hockey IQ on this team is ever-present. Many future coaches and executives on this team (Crisp, Tippett, Winters, Burke, Tallon, off hand).

Given Medicine Hat's speed, board work, two-way play, supreme versatility, great goaltending, great coaching and enough firepower to score the requisite number of goals required for victory, they should be a formidable opponent to any team in the league.
Your team is not as strong defensively as you claim.Gus Bodnar spent most of his career with the late 1940s/early 1950s Chicago Blackhawks one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NHL. Scott Young and Wayne Babych were at best so-so. Andre Pronovost had conditioning issues. Reason why he was moved from the Canadiens and bounced around the NHL afterwards.

Otherwise a solid team.

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Old
08-18-2012, 09:38 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Your team is not as strong defensively as you claim.Gus Bodnar spent most of his career with the late 1940s/early 1950s Chicago Blackhawks one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NHL. Scott Young and Wayne Babych were at best so-so. Andre Pronovost had conditioning issues. Reason why he was moved from the Canadiens and bounced around the NHL afterwards.

Otherwise a solid team.
I'm pretty sure that Andre Pronovost's issues (not conditioning issues) about being traded and afterwards are well documented that he asked for a raise, was denied, traded, then fell into a rut after said trade because he went from the best team in the league to one of the worst. Here's just one example of that, and I've seen it elsewhere:

http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2007...pronovost.html

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Old
08-18-2012, 10:31 PM
  #111
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Image and Numbers.

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I'm pretty sure that Andre Pronovost's issues (not conditioning issues) about being traded and afterwards are well documented that he asked for a raise, was denied, traded, then fell into a rut after said trade because he went from the best team in the league to one of the worst. Here's just one example of that, and I've seen it elsewhere:

http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2007...pronovost.html
Everyone has excuses.

Look at the attached image with Detroit.

Let's look at the 1960-61 Canadiens' LWers

Dickie Moore 5'10" / 168lbs
Marcel Bonin 5'10" / 170lbs
Gilles Tremblay 5'10" / 170 lbs
Don Marshall 5'10" / 160 lbs
Jean Guy Gendron 5'9" / 165 lbs

Then you have

Andre Pronovost 5'10" / 188 lbs.

The same height as the other LWers but 18-28 lbs heavier. Mr. Pronovost meet Mr. Krutov.

Height/weight from HR.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-12-2014 at 06:33 PM.
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Old
08-18-2012, 10:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Everyone has excuses.

Look at the attached image with Detroit.

Let's look at the 1960-61 Canadiens' LWers

Dickie Moore 5'10" / 168lbs
Marcel Bonin 5'10" / 170lbs
Gilles Tremblay 5'10" / 170 lbs
Don Marshall 5'10" / 160 lbs
Jean Guy Gendron 5'9" / 165 lbs

Then you have

Andre Pronovost 5'10" / 188 lbs.

The same height as the other LWers but 18-28 lbs heavier. Mr. Pronovost meet Mr. Krutov.

Height/weight from HR.
Some players carry weight better than others. Dean Prentice from the same time frame was 5'11, 180; Norm Ullman was 5'10 175; Bobby Hull was 5'10 195; Bob Pulford 5'11 188; Andy Hebenton 5'9 180.

For every example of players being skinny, I'm confident I can find another example of a player being heavier and carrying the weight just fine.

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08-18-2012, 10:51 PM
  #113
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Toe Blake

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Some players carry weight better than others. Dean Prentice from the same time frame was 5'11, 180; Norm Ullman was 5'10 175; Bobby Hull was 5'10 195; Bob Pulford 5'11 188; Andy Hebenton 5'9 180.

For every example of players being skinny, I'm confident I can find another example of a player being heavier and carrying the weight just fine.
Toe Blake felt otherwise and the team got rid of Andre Pronovost:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...pronoan01.html

None of the players you list started a season with a 21GP 1G/5A mark either. Hebenton also left the NHL early like Pronovost to finish his career in the minors. Issue is being in game shape not being skinny.

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08-18-2012, 11:11 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Toe Blake felt otherwise and the team got rid of Andre Pronovost:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...pronoan01.html

None of the players you list started a season with a 21GP 1G/5A mark either. Hebenton also left the NHL early like Pronovost to finish his career in the minors. Issue is being in game shape not being skinny.
If you have some sort of evidence other than his hockey-reference page that says that's why Toe Blake got rid of him, then please share. Because otherwise, we have a good explanation as to why he was dealt, and according to other (readily available) information it isn't his weight.

Also, that just flat out isn't true about the players I listed not scoring well. Pulford didn't have a POINT in his first 14 games of 1969-70, and it was his last season in Toronto. It's very possible that (WOW!) there is a correlation between players not scoring and coaches getting rid of them.


Last edited by vecens24: 08-18-2012 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
08-18-2012, 11:53 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Tommy Williams, 2010 MLD draftee and 1960 USA Olympic hockey player says hi. Better player than a number of RW draftees in the 2012 MLD draft.
You had to go back to the 2010 MLD. Bad picks don't make the 1960 American amateurs better. Please respect the process and stay on topic instead of making weak arguments that American amateurs in 1960 are as good as top 1200 all time NHL and international players. The HoH forum and the ATD Chat Room are the appropriate place for those type of discussions. This is the lineup assassination thread and assassinating and defending lineups is what's appropriate here. Voters are expected to read this thread so please give them a break. Thank you. Peace. Out.

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Old
08-19-2012, 12:55 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Other than that, I basically agree with your review. They need to find a way to get Alex Smith into the lineup if nothing else. I also think that Stu Barnes and Colin Patterson are their two best penalty killing forwards and they should be given bigtime PK time (and limited ES time).
Am I missing something? What do we even know about Alex Smith? We do know that he played five seasons beyond the introduction of all-star voting, and received no recogniton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Defense is way TOO SLOW. Dailey before his knee injury was slow with an excellent shot. Beukeboom, Fontinato, Sargent were never fast plus Fontinato was awkward. Major liabilities.
.
That is just not true. I saw a 1978 TOR-LAK game on NHL network a couple weeks ago, and Sargent appeared to be the fastest player on the ice. He appeared to be extremely talented.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Kampman and Buller were slow, quickly exposed and out of the NHL.
That is not true. Nothing was written of Kampman's slowness, and he was not out of the NHL for any reason other than the war. He came back at age 31 after three seasons of playing lower-caliber hockey, and since this wasn't a Schmidt/Dumart-caliber player we're talking about, he was no longer good enough.

the only players who were active as full-time players in 1941 and 1948 and missed at least two NHL seasons due to WW2, are Jack Stewart, Syl Apps, Max Bentley, Bryan Hextall, Nick Metz, Wally Stanowski, Billy Taylor, Sid Abel, Neil Colville, Ken Reardon and the Krauts.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Tommy Williams, 2010 MLD draftee and 1960 USA Olympic hockey player says hi. Better player than a number of RW draftees in the 2012 MLD draft.
I like Williams a lot but I disagree that he should be taken by now. There are still plenty of scoring wingers I'd rather take. He doesn't bring anything else significant to the game except an enthusiastic attitude but that was a double-edged sword for him, too.

Could I make a case for him over a dozen top-6 wingers in this draft? Absolutely. But I could make a case for 20 other top-6 wingers over him. He should be a pretty good AAA draft winger though.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think we all get a little caught up in our own teams sometimes.
Yes, no doubt. Still, the comment looked like an accusation of dishonesty. As though I am some sort of shapeshifter who will say anything to win, and will have different opinions on the same player depending on whether he's on my team or not. That's baseless.

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08-19-2012, 04:51 AM
  #117
Dreakmur
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Since not many assassinations are going on, maybe I can spark a few debates and discussions here.

I went through all the rostrers, and picked out my top-3 favorites in each of the following categories:

First Lines
Pittsburgh Duquesne (Valery Kamensy-Slava Bykov-Andrei Khomutov)
Medicine Hat Tricks (Dubbie Kerr-Gus Bodnar-Alexander Kozhevnikov)
Montreal Maroons (Zach Parise-Syl Apps Jr.-Jiri Lala)

Second Lines
Sherbrook Castors (Morris Lukowich-Craig Janney-Keith Crowder)
Pittsburgh Hornets (Slava Kozlov-Jozef Golonka-Vincent Lukac0
Brynas IF (Jorgen Pettersson-Niklas Backstrom-Ulf Dahlen)

Third Lines
Regina Capitals (Murph Chamberlain-Patrik Sundstrom-Bob MacMillan)
Lokomotiv Yaroslav (Terry Ruskowski-Bobby Carpenter-Pat Flatley)
Montreal Maroons (Shawn Burr-Mike Ricci-Grant Warwick)

Fourth Lines
Regina Capitals (Baldy Cotton-Art Jackson-Jim Peplinski)
Medicine Hat Tricks (Dave Tippett-Rob Zamuner-Shorty Green)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (Buzz Boll-Stephane Yelle-Dustin Brown)

First Pairing
Medicine Hat Tricks (Brian Campbell-Bill Brydge)
Yarmouth Mariners (Bingo Kampman-Hy Buller)
Winnipeg Monarchs (Joe Cooper-Larry Hillman)

Second Pairing
Connecticut Whaler (Dave Maloney-Willie Mitchell)
Raleigh Icecaps (Garry Galley-Jim Morrison)
Sherbrook Castors (Lou Fontinato-Mario Marois)

Third Pairing
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (Udo Kiessling-Garth Butcher)
Chicago Blaze (Bruce Driver-Billy Coutu)
Pittsburgh Hornets (Dave Manson-Jason Smith)

Goaltending
Lokomotiv Yaroslav (Johny Mowers-Bert Lindsay)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (Mike Karakas-Arturs Irbe)
Brynas IF (Pelle Lindberg-Leif Holmqvist)

Coaching
Brynas IF (Tommy Sandlin)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (Don Cherry-Dave King)
Montreal Orfuns (Claude Ruel-Guy Boucher)

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08-19-2012, 05:23 AM
  #118
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Call me ignorant but I disagree about the goaltending and 4th line selections of yours dreakmur.

You herald the 3rd line of Lokomotiv (Ruskowski-Carpenter-Flatley) but pan its fourth line:
Steve Konowalchuk- Keith Acton - Randy McKay

This line is composed of previous ATDers, and for good reason: they are all-time great in Bottom-6 roles. The Lokomotiv Bottom-6 is claimed to be one of the strengths of the line-up. If others don't think so, a closer look might be in order.

And we differ totally on the teams with the best netminding in this draft:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Goaltending
Lokomotiv Yaroslav (Johny Mowers-Bert Lindsay)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (Mike Karakas-Arturs Irbe)
Brynas IF (Pelle Lindberg-Leif Holmqvist)
Judgements vary greatly, obviously, as you claim that Lokomotiv's netminding is among the top-3 listed while I think our goaltending is not even top-3 in our own division! Now, don't get me wrong, it's fine, but... the top-3 are to my mind these remarkable creases I'd trade wholesale (as a duo) for any time:

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Originally Posted by Regina Capitals
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Originally Posted by Zambia Mania
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Originally Posted by Connecticut Whale
I mean everything I say sincerely.


Last edited by VanIslander: 08-19-2012 at 05:30 AM.
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08-19-2012, 05:29 AM
  #119
seventieslord
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I actually agree 100%, VI, on the three top goaltending tandems. I would pick those exact three myself.

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08-19-2012, 07:06 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
During this period Canada would send the best eligible team based on IIHF and Olympic definitions of amateur. At the time NHL teams had sponsorship arrangements with Senior Amateur teams and leagues. Such teams could win the Allan Cup but were not IIHF or Olympic eligible.

Post 1956, Canada did not participate in 1957 but subsequent Allan Cup winners or runner-ups were reinforced by eligible senior amateurs and/or juniors - 1960 KW had juniors Bobby Rousseau and Cliff Pennington added plus seniors like Harry Sinden

The 1961 WC gold medal winners were the Trail Smoke Eaters - link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_Smoke_Eaters
You're right about the Trail Smoke Eaters, my bad. But I'm not aware of the change in eligibility rules you suggest for the years from 1956 on. Could you elaborate please or provide sources/links?

EDIT: Replace the 1956 in "for the years from 1956 on" with 1955.


Last edited by Theokritos: 08-19-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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Old
08-19-2012, 07:19 AM
  #121
Canadiens1958
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post



That is just not true. I saw a 1978 TOR-LAK game on NHL network a couple weeks ago, and Sargent appeared to be the fastest player on the ice. He appeared to be extremely talented.



That is not true. Nothing was written of Kampman's slowness, and he was not out of the NHL for any reason other than the war. He came back at age 31 after three seasons of playing lower-caliber hockey, and since this wasn't a Schmidt/Dumart-caliber player we're talking about, he was no longer good enough.

the only players who were active as full-time players in 1941 and 1948 and missed at least two NHL seasons due to WW2, are Jack Stewart, Syl Apps, Max Bentley, Bryan Hextall, Nick Metz, Wally Stanowski, Billy Taylor, Sid Abel, Neil Colville, Ken Reardon and the Krauts.



I like Williams a lot but I disagree that he should be taken by now. There are still plenty of scoring wingers I'd rather take. He doesn't bring anything else significant to the game except an enthusiastic attitude but that was a double-edged sword for him, too.

Could I make a case for him over a dozen top-6 wingers in this draft? Absolutely. But I could make a case for 20 other top-6 wingers over him. He should be a pretty good AAA draft winger though.
Gary Sargent. So he was faster than Marcel Dionne, Butch Goring, Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler,? So fast he was unnoticeable at the 1976 Canada Cup. So good that the Kings let him go as a free agent to Minnesota in the summer of 1978.Sure. Usual puffery.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sargega01.html

Bingo Kampman. Bolded were defensemen. Who were fast enough.
He was no longer good enough is just a euphamism for lacking certain necessary attributes like speed, quickness, mobility, etc.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-19-2012 at 07:41 AM. Reason: addition
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08-19-2012, 07:36 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
You're right about the Trail Smoke Eaters, my bad. But I'm not aware of the change in eligibility rules you suggest for the years from 1956 on. Could you elaborate please or provide sources/links?
See the Canadian 1960 silver medal roster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hoc...inter_Olympics

Note Pennington, Rousseau - two junior aged players loaned to the team and Harry Sinden, a Whitby Dunlop.

Canadian teams just applied existing rules that applied to the formation of national teams in the USA and Europe where various teams contributed players to the National Team. So the Canadian reps would upgrade their roster within the eligibility rules.

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08-19-2012, 07:59 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
See the Canadian 1960 silver medal roster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hoc...inter_Olympics

Note Pennington, Rousseau - two junior aged players loaned to the team and Harry Sinden, a Whitby Dunlop.

Canadian teams just applied existing rules that applied to the formation of national teams in the USA and Europe where various teams contributed players to the National Team. So the Canadian reps would upgrade their roster within the eligibility rules.
I'm aware of the reinforcements, but you have suggested that the Allan Cup champion teams were not eligible to play in the 1948-1954 period:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
During this period Canada would send the best eligible team based on IIHF and Olympic definitions of amateur. At the time NHL teams had sponsorship arrangements with Senior Amateur teams and leagues. Such teams could win the Allan Cup but were not IIHF or Olympic eligible.
What made the Royal Montreal HC in 1948, the Edmonton Flyers in 1949, the Ottawa Senators in 1950, the Toronto Malboros in 1951, the Owen Sound Mercuries in 1952 and the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen in 1954 ineligible? While the Penticton V's were eligible in 1955. So were the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen (!) in 1956. And so on. What changed in 1955?

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08-19-2012, 08:36 AM
  #124
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Players

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
I'm aware of the reinforcements, but you have suggested that the Allan Cup champion teams were not eligible to play in the 1948-1954 period:



What made the Royal Montreal HC in 1948, the Edmonton Flyers in 1949, the Ottawa Senators in 1950, the Toronto Malboros in 1951, the Owen Sound Mercuries in 1952 and the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen in 1954 ineligible? While the Penticton V's were eligible in 1955. So were the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen (!) in 1956. And so on. What changed in 1955?
Royals and Marlies were Canadien and Leaf farm clubs. Once the graduating NHLers or former NHLers/pros were removed teams were left with very little.

Royals roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...007371947.html

Senators roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...007391949.html

Flyers roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...023811949.html

Marlies roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...040741950.html

Re-instated pros helped the 1955 Penticton Vs. Also by the mid 1950s, the 5 game amateur tryout was in place - see Sven Tumba, Quebec 1957-58

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08-19-2012, 09:36 AM
  #125
Velociraptor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Forwards

The first line has the right chemistry to succeed. Jordan(despite being one of the better playmakers of the era, which I don't think means much) is a goal-scoring center that will be set up by Giroux while Maloney digs out pucks. Maloney as the defensive conscious of the line isn't ideal, but for a first line, it's okay. Claude is learning how to play in his own zone, but he's average at it at this level. The problem I have with this line is that Giroux is playing out of position. Claude's resume at RW is his first 2 NHL seasons, none of which are relevant. He got votes at RW because that's how he was listed on NHL.com the last 2 years. He didn't play a shift of right wing either year. Claude's game is successful because he gets a lot of room to work with at center where he can see the ice and distribute. I think his effectiveness is going to be limited at wing. The second line works well, no problems there. The third line is good as well, should be effective in their own zone and can chip in a goal every once in awhile. The 4th line can be a checking/forechecking line, and be good at it, but don't expect them to put up many points. Overall, a solid forward group with well built 2-3-4 lines. My one big concern is Giroux's limited effectiveness at RW.

Defense

This top pairing should be difficult to play against and brings a little bit of everything to the table. I'm not sold on Beukeboom as a top pairing guy in the MLD. He was never a big minute muncher on his teams, and he never received a single vote for an all star team or Norris. Dailey has enough recognition as a top defenseman on quality teams, but I'm not a fan of Beukeboom. I like your 2nd pairing better, and they should be equally difficult to play against. 3rd pairing is fine, but I'd probably dress Alex Smith ahead of Ehrhoff, Smith isn't a terrible offensive player in his own right and I don't think Ehrhoff has proven enough to warrant being picked this high.

Goaltending

I'd definitely put Edwards near the top in terms of goalies in this draft, he's got a somewhat short but very strong peak. Henry is an adequate backup.

Special Teams

First PP unit looks good, but the second one is lacking in punch a bit with Maloney and Crowder, two grinders, on the wings. Not a big fan of Sargent either. PK units are adequate, but nothing special.
Thanks for the review Billy, I realize Giroux is not in his dominant position but with his linemates I believe he is in position to succeed. You're the best to ask, in his years at RW, who were his linemates in Philadelphia. I think his qualities can still be put to use, and he'll be successful with Jordan and Maloney. And I remember watching games this year where he was playing at least a little bit of right wing, which probably doesn't mean a whole lot but there has to be a better explanation that he collected All-Star votes at RW than a technological error on his positional play.

We're considering moving Christian Ehrhoff out for Alex Smith, he's a better two-way guy and is still passable for a second powerplay unit point duty.

Crowder was a good player on the power play, he played a similar role to Tim Kerr on the powerplay (mind you much less effective, albeit similar) he'd be in front of the goalie and able to score from the slot or knock in some garbage goals. He also boasts two top-10's in powerplay goals. I don't know what's not to like about Sargent besides perhaps a short career, but IMO he is more than adequate on that second unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Defense is way TOO SLOW. Dailey before his knee injury was slow with an excellent shot. Beukeboom, Fontinato, Sargent were never fast plus Fontinato was awkward. Major liabilities.

Dailey and Ernhoff can move the puck if given time. Agressive forecheck neutralizes them.

Don Edwards was never a workhorse goalie. Had to be managed - Bob Sauve. Good goaltending tandem.
Dailey was known as a mobile skater, and very decent for his size throughout his career. The behemoth pairing of Beukeboom and Dailey, Beukeboom is the stay-at-home, physical component who will not be rushing because of his inability to get back on an odd-man rush. However Dailey has the speed to do so, he is capable of getting back after a rush and he can also play the exact same game as Beukeboom.

Quote:
Marois' offensive talent suited the Nords' fast-paced game and his tough work ...
Mario Marois was at least an adequate skater, and similar to the first pairing, Fontinato is the stay-at-home guy, so he won't have to worry about getting back after a rush. I think the Castors' defense is in perfect position to succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keith Crowder was actually pretty good at scoring goals in front of the net on the PP. In fact, he was a much better PP goal scorer than an ES one (like Ulf Dahlen actually).

Other than that, I basically agree with your review. They need to find a way to get Alex Smith into the lineup if nothing else. I also think that Stu Barnes and Colin Patterson are their two best penalty killing forwards and they should be given bigtime PK time (and limited ES time).
Barnes and Patterson are both on the fourth line, so they won't be seeing much ES time to begin with, but it is likely they will pioneer the first PK, with Kindrachuk and Maki on the second unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pelletier calls Dailey "mobile" and legends of hockey calls him "agile for a man of his size." Are you sure you aren't thinking of after his injury?
Yeah I have no idea where he is getting that Dailey had a reputation as a slow skater.

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