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Old
08-19-2012, 10:34 AM
  #126
Canadiens1958
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Lou Fontinato

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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post


Mario Marois was at least an adequate skater, and similar to the first pairing, Fontinato is the stay-at-home guy, so he won't have to worry about getting back after a rush. I think the Castors' defense is in perfect position to succeed.
Observe the Lou Fontinato video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nym66kPlKRI

Takes himself out of position, little sense of hockey geometry, poor skater.

On poor defensive teams with the NY Rangers would be paired with future HHOFers Howell or Gadsby. With Montreal paired with Tom Johnson another HHOFer. Marois is far from HHOF quality.

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08-19-2012, 10:45 AM
  #127
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Am I missing something? What do we even know about Alex Smith? We do know that he played five seasons beyond the introduction of all-star voting, and received no recogniton.
His point finishes about defensemen are impressive, he was thought of as something of a lesser "star," and apparently was at least acceptable defensively. But you do have a point. Smith was much younger than I thought (28 yo) when the first All Star Team was voted on.

Btw, funny error on his h-r page: apparently he played in the WHA playoffs in his 70s!

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08-19-2012, 10:52 AM
  #128
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Bob Dailey Video

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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post

Dailey was known as a mobile skater, and very decent for his size throughout his career. The behemoth pairing of Beukeboom and Dailey, Beukeboom is the stay-at-home, physical component who will not be rushing because of his inability to get back on an odd-man rush. However Dailey has the speed to do so, he is capable of getting back after a rush and he can also play the exact same game as Beukeboom.



Yeah I have no idea where he is getting that Dailey had a reputation as a slow skater.
Observe the following video - Nystrom's 1980m Cop winning goal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPhyM50CzY

Notice who the Islanders exploit defensively twice - Bob Dailey.

Now grade his speed, mobility, on ice hockey geometry, positioning.

Even an average skater takes a better angle and plays the puck better in the corner instead of getting crunched.

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08-19-2012, 11:05 AM
  #129
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I'm not familiar with Dailey's entire body of work, but he doesn't appear to be very mobile there. He takes weird angles too. Very upright skater it seems, almost like he doesn't propel himself forward so much as he's trying to push the ice out from under him. I don't want to make an overall judgment from a small segment of video (I'm not even sure if this is pre- or post-injury for him). Could have been a bad shift certainly, but he didn't show a lot of intelligence or mobility there.

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08-19-2012, 11:22 AM
  #130
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Flaws

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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm not familiar with Dailey's entire body of work, but he doesn't appear to be very mobile there. He takes weird angles too. Very upright skater it seems, almost like he doesn't propel himself forward so much as he's trying to push the ice out from under him. I don't want to make an overall judgment from a small segment of video (I'm not even sure if this is pre- or post-injury for him). Could have been a bad shift certainly, but he didn't show a lot of intelligence or mobility there.
None of the flaws you list appear/disappear from shift to shift or game to game. Likewise injury would not impact. Post injury players/defensemen adapt because of their appreciation of angles and on ice intelligence. Rick Green being a prime example.

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08-19-2012, 11:58 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
His point finishes about defensemen are impressive, he was thought of as something of a lesser "star," and apparently was at least acceptable defensively. But you do have a point. Smith was much younger than I thought (28 yo) when the first All Star Team was voted on.

Btw, funny error on his h-r page: apparently he played in the WHA playoffs in his 70s!
It might have been a Lester Patrick type situation.

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08-19-2012, 12:02 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Gary Sargent. So he was faster than Marcel Dionne, Butch Goring, Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler,? So fast he was unnoticeable at the 1976 Canada Cup. So good that the Kings let him go as a free agent to Minnesota in the summer of 1978.Sure. Usual puffery.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sargega01.html
Haha. Funny that you mention the 1976 canada cup. Might want to read his bio from last year.

As far as being "let go" as a free agent, that couldn't be more wrong. LA offered more money to keep Sargent, an RFA, but he wanted to play in the home state. Three players were sent as compensation.

Quote:
Bingo Kampman. Bolded were defensemen. Who were fast enough.
He was no longer good enough is just a euphamism for lacking certain necessary attributes like speed, quickness, mobility, etc.
Well of course it is. Tell me, Why else would a player cease to be good enough?

The point was those were all very good players, much better than Kampman. In fact the only players who proved to be able to overcome an absence due to WW2 were either HHOFers or at least postseason all-star team caliber.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-19-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Old
08-19-2012, 12:15 PM
  #133
DaveG
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so after some deliberation, this is what I'm leaning towards now lineup wise:

Steve Vickers - Robbie Ftorek - Marian Stastny
Anton Stastny - Cliff Ronning - Willi Plett
Sami Kapanen - Wayne Merrick - Tom Hooper
Dave Reid - Larry Patey - Wayne Presley

Bingo Kampman - Hy Buller
Tomas Kaberle - Mike Milbury
Igor Stelnov - Sergei Starikov

Cam Ward
Gilles Meloche

PP1:
Steve Vickers - Robbie Ftorek - Marian Stastny
Tomas Kaberle - Hy Buller
(thought is with Buller acting as the trigger man much like McCabe did in Toronto frequently)

PP2:
Anton Stastny - Cliff Ronning - Tom Hooper
Sami Kapanen - Sergei Starikov

PK1:
Dave Reid - Larry Patey
Bingo Kampman - Mike Milbury

PK2:
Robbie Ftorek - Wayne Presley
Igor Stelnov - Sergei Starikov

PK Spares (in case one of the PKers is in the box):
F Sami Kapanen, RW/D Tom Hooper, C Wayne Merrick, D Hy Buller

Spares:
RW Alexei Morozov
LW/C Hib Milks
D Jaro Spacek
D Bob Plager

Morozov and Milks capable of coming off the bench and being in the top 6 if necessary, Spacek if we need another offensive dman, Plager if we need a more stay at home guy.

bios are available here for most of the guys:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...87&postcount=5

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08-19-2012, 12:17 PM
  #134
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I'm going to hit up tarheel's team next

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Old
08-19-2012, 12:22 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

The point was those were all very good players, much better than Kampman. In fact the only players who proved to be able to overcome an absence due to WW2 were either HHOFers or at least postseason all-star team caliber.
Just from the Bruins, Terry Reardon, Jack Church and Murray Henderson contradict your fact:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...reardte01.html

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08-19-2012, 12:23 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Just from the Bruins, Terry Reardon, Jack Church and Murray Henderson contradict your fact:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...reardte01.html
I think he was talking about guys who managed to be full time players both before and after the war.

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08-19-2012, 12:40 PM
  #137
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Gary Sargent

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Haha. Funny that you mention the 1976 canada cup. Might want to read his bio from last year.

As far as being "let go" as a free agent, that couldn't be more wrong. LA offered more money to keep Sargent, an RFA, but he wanted to play in the home state. Three players were sent as compensation.
!976 Canada Cup. Gary Sargent was the 3rd USA defensenman behind Milbury and Nyrop:

http://www.hhof.com/htmlTimeCapsule/...P1976USA.shtml

Three players were Dave Gardner who never played for the Kings, Steve Jensen who was a third liner, weak defensively and Rick Hampton who didn't realize his potential in LA either. As compensation they reflected value received. Nothing great going or coming.

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08-19-2012, 12:46 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Observe the Lou Fontinato video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nym66kPlKRI

Takes himself out of position, little sense of hockey geometry, poor skater.

On poor defensive teams with the NY Rangers would be paired with future HHOFers Howell or Gadsby. With Montreal paired with Tom Johnson another HHOFer. Marois is far from HHOF quality.
Yeah, because I said it's a damn shame that Marois isn't in the HHOF... it's the Minor League Draft, 90% of these players aren't going to be paired with the dynamic linemates or partners they did in the best success of their careers. It applies to most on my team, your team, everyone's team. So it's redundant to call Fontinato out like that.

I created/linked past biographies of players so people could become more knowledgeable about them. Before rendering players useless I suggest you take a look at these bios rather than say stuff to talk down about the players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Observe the following video - Nystrom's 1980m Cop winning goal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPhyM50CzY

Notice who the Islanders exploit defensively twice - Bob Dailey.

Now grade his speed, mobility, on ice hockey geometry, positioning.

Even an average skater takes a better angle and plays the puck better in the corner instead of getting crunched.
You picked a great time in both players careers to exploit their flaws, both in their final seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
None of the flaws you list appear/disappear from shift to shift or game to game. Likewise injury would not impact. Post injury players/defensemen adapt because of their appreciation of angles and on ice intelligence. Rick Green being a prime example.
Quote:
Dailey possessed a rare combination of imposing size (65, 220 pounds), remarkable agility and an occasional mean streak
Quote:
a mobile yet rugged defenseman
Quote:
At 6'5" Dailey had the size and strength to patrol the defense with a remarkable amount of agility for a man of his size...
Quote:
to the Vancouver Canucks Thursday night for defenseman Bob Dailey. ... Allen said that Dailey fits the mold of the big, fast defensemen the club needs.
I don't know what else you want me to do to prove that Dailey was a good skater, because you're basing his skating ability off of post-knee surgery and a handful of major midget hockey games. While numerous of the more reputable sources available all refer to him as "remarkably agile". I'm not quite sure why you have it out to deem Dailey as a slow skater, but the credibility of these quotes is much more viable than two shifts after a serious injury. At least back up your claims so that they can have some sort of clarity.

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08-19-2012, 12:46 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think he was talking about guys who managed to be full time players both before and after the war.
Based on games/seasons played before and after the war that describes Terry Reardon and Jack Church.

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08-19-2012, 12:47 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Call me ignorant but I disagree about the goaltending and 4th line selections of yours dreakmur.

You herald the 3rd line of Lokomotiv (Ruskowski-Carpenter-Flatley) but pan its fourth line:
Steve Konowalchuk- Keith Acton - Randy McKay

This line is composed of previous ATDers, and for good reason: they are all-time great in Bottom-6 roles. The Lokomotiv Bottom-6 is claimed to be one of the strengths of the line-up. If others don't think so, a closer look might be in order.

And we differ totally on the teams with the best netminding in this draft:


Judgements vary greatly, obviously, as you claim that Lokomotiv's netminding is among the top-3 listed while I think our goaltending is not even top-3 in our own division! Now, don't get me wrong, it's fine, but... the top-3 are to my mind these remarkable creases I'd trade wholesale (as a duo) for any time:







I mean everything I say sincerely.
I don't think he necessarily panned your fourth line, he just likes three other ones better......

I do agree about the goaltending though. I would probably put our Turco-Bouchard combo up there with Nicholson-Vokoun, but they're probably just a tad bit better because Nicholson is the best of the four.

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08-19-2012, 12:50 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Gary Sargent. So he was faster than Marcel Dionne, Butch Goring, Borje Salming, Darryl Sittler,? So fast he was unnoticeable at the 1976 Canada Cup. So good that the Kings let him go as a free agent to Minnesota in the summer of 1978.Sure. Usual puffery.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sargega01.html

Bingo Kampman. Bolded were defensemen. Who were fast enough.
He was no longer good enough is just a euphamism for lacking certain necessary attributes like speed, quickness, mobility, etc.
I hope this isn't serious...

Sargent finished second in Team MVP voting

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08-19-2012, 01:05 PM
  #142
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Bob Dailey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post

You picked a great time in both players careers to exploit their flaws, both in their final seasons.

I don't know what else you want me to do to prove that Dailey was a good skater, because you're basing his skating ability off of post-knee surgery and a handful of major midget hockey games. While numerous of the more reputable sources available all refer to him as "remarkably agile". I'm not quite sure why you have it out to deem Dailey as a slow skater, but the credibility of these quotes is much more viable than two shifts after a serious injury. At least back up your claims so that they can have some sort of clarity.
Bob Dailey was not in his final season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...dailebo01.html

Major junior during his draft season not major midget..

Allen only gave up Larry Goodenough and Jack McIlhargey to get him and no one screamed robbery.

Mike Farkas nailed his flaws which were present before and after his knee injury. A knee injury does not create such flaws.

Lou Fontinato's flaws resulted in his career ending neck injury.

Watch him in his element with the Rangers - 1959:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xXocxUdaMU

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08-19-2012, 01:05 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
!976 Canada Cup. Gary Sargent was the 3rd USA defensenman behind Milbury and Nyrop:

http://www.hhof.com/htmlTimeCapsule/...P1976USA.shtml

Three players were Dave Gardner who never played for the Kings, Steve Jensen who was a third liner, weak defensively and Rick Hampton who didn't realize his potential in LA either. As compensation they reflected value received. Nothing great going or coming.
Why should I care if Gardner never played for the Kings? He was an excellent specialist who twice led the NHL in PP goals. Of vourse that is value going the Kings' way. That they squandered it is not a statement on Sargent. Hampton was considered to have potential at the time of the signing too. They weren't just throwing garbage at the kings.

And there is no way Bill Nyrop was better or more highly regarded than Gary Sargent.

With your first hand experience as a fan and observer, you have the potential to be a very respected and influential poster here. But not if everything you say needs to be fact checked.

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08-19-2012, 01:09 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why should I care if Gardner never played for the Kings? He was an excellent specialist who twice led the NHL in PP goals. Of vourse that is value going the Kings' way. That they squandered it is not a statement on Sargent. Hampton was considered to have potential at the time of the signing too. They weren't just throwing garbage at the kings.

And there is no way Bill Nyrop was better or more highly regarded than Gary Sargent.

With your first hand experience as a fan and observer, you have the potential to be a very respected and influential poster here. But not if everything you say needs to be fact checked.
Thank you.

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08-19-2012, 01:12 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bob Dailey was not in his final season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...dailebo01.html

Major junior during his draft season not major midget..

Allen only gave up Larry Goodenough and Jack McIlhargey to get him and no one screamed robbery.

Mike Farkas nailed his flaws which were present before and after his knee injury. A knee injury does not create such flaws.

Lou Fontinato's flaws resulted in his career ending neck injury.

Watch him in his element with the Rangers - 1959:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xXocxUdaMU
Not any different really.

Did I say the trade was sheer larceny? I don't believe I did...

The fact of the matter is, you're trying to go against cold hard facts. I'd take your word for it if you watched every single Flyers game from the time Dailey was drafted and when he was dealt to the Canucks. But your basing your argument off of pre-professional hockey, and a post injury, twilight of Dailey's career playoff game. You're trying to insinuate him when you have virtually nothing to back it up with.

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08-19-2012, 01:14 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Based on games/seasons played before and after the war that describes Terry Reardon and Jack Church.
I used 1941 and 1948 as the cutoffs for a reason. A lot of players came back and played briefly before falling out really quickly. Church is one of those. Reardon was initially promising too but the war hurt his game, and he came back and played two seasons but was out of the NHL at 27. As you can see, only special players could miss 2+ seasons of NHL hockey and re-establish themselves fully.

Quote:
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I don't think he necessarily panned your fourth line, he just likes three other ones better......
I was going to say this last night too... slight overreaction.

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08-19-2012, 01:21 PM
  #147
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Dave Gardner

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why should I care if Gardner never played for the Kings? He was an excellent specialist who twice led the NHL in PP goals. Of vourse that is value going the Kings' way. That they squandered it is not a statement on Sargent. Hampton was considered to have potential at the time of the signing too. They weren't just throwing garbage at the kings.

And there is no way Bill Nyrop was better or more highly regarded than Gary Sargent.

With your first hand experience as a fan and observer, you have the potential to be a very respected and influential poster here. But not if everything you say needs to be fact checked.
Dave Gardner only scored 18 career PP goals in the NHL, season high of 6.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gardnda01.html

Looks like everything you say should be fact checked.

1974-75 Golden Seals two of his teammates had 8 PPG - Patey and Hrechosy. 1976-77 Barons three of his teammates had more PPG than Gardner's 5.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CLE/1977.html

Nyrop was simply more efficient, stay at home defenseman low risk.

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08-19-2012, 01:28 PM
  #148
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Obviously

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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Not any different really.

Did I say the trade was sheer larceny? I don't believe I did...

The fact of the matter is, you're trying to go against cold hard facts. I'd take your word for it if you watched every single Flyers game from the time Dailey was drafted and when he was dealt to the Canucks. But your basing your argument off of pre-professional hockey, and a post injury, twilight of Dailey's career playoff game. You're trying to insinuate him when you have virtually nothing to back it up with.
Facts Bob Dailey was drafted by the Vancouver Canucks then traded to the Flyers for the platers stated up thread. Other than unattributed quotes and the comment of a GM who traded for him you have nothing viewable or verifiable. The video is what is available and the flaws Dailey shows are not injury related, nor are they one instant flaws.

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08-19-2012, 01:37 PM
  #149
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Bingo Kampman

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I used 1941 and 1948 as the cutoffs for a reason. A lot of players came back and played briefly before falling out really quickly. Church is one of those. Reardon was initially promising too but the war hurt his game, and he came back and played two seasons but was out of the NHL at 27. As you can see, only special players could miss 2+ seasons of NHL hockey and re-establish themselves fully.



I was going to say this last night too... slight overreaction.
You are just reinforcing the point about Bingo Kampman:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...kampmbi01.html

He is one of the few to actually play hockey in the services during the three WWII seasons.

Others missed significant hockey time but made it back.

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08-19-2012, 01:47 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I don't think he necessarily panned your fourth line, he just likes three other ones better......

I do agree about the goaltending though. I would probably put our Turco-Bouchard combo up there with Nicholson-Vokoun, but they're probably just a tad bit better because Nicholson is the best of the four.
I have to retread the bios of Nicholsson. I'm not nearly as sold on him as you guys. Before the draft, I had both Turco and Bouchard on my list of "guys who would be okay starters here" over Nicholsson

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