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Old
08-19-2012, 11:31 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The Habs boards:

Where 36pts from our no1 defensemen (28th in the league) is a great achievement worth restructuring the rest of the team around.

The Habs boards:

Where a .915 sv% from our starting goaltender (22th in the league, ignoring goalies with less than 20 games) is a great achievement worth restructuring the rest of the team around.
Hahahaha... owned.

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08-19-2012, 01:37 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
If they come hard for Desharnais, might change a lot of things!
One of Desharnais' best assets that is not often mentioned is his spatial awareness - and he creates a lot of space for himself and teammates because of this. If teams tried to take runs at Desharnais (which they wouldn't since he is a clean, honest, respectful player), he would make them look like fools.

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08-19-2012, 01:51 PM
  #203
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I honestly think that a lot of people are biased against DD because of his size (it has been a criticism of the habs for the past 15 years and I think people don't want it to continue).

However all this talk of DD getting more offensive zone starts, easier competition, etc...what do you expect? Every top offensive centre in the league gets put in the best situation to help his team score goals. DD is our best playmaker - he should be getting those chances, what else would you expect? Just watch Vancouver. The Sedin's start in the offensive zone all the time - it's because that gives them the best chance to score goals, which is what they do best. I'm not comparing DD to Sedin, but he is our best offensive centre and is deserving of being put in those situations.

DD could very well go on to lead our team in scoring for the next 5 years - I wouldn't bet on it, but it wouldn't surprise me either.

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08-19-2012, 02:01 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The Habs boards:

Where 36pts from our no1 defensemen (28th in the league) is a great achievement worth restructuring the rest of the team around.
Subban isn't a purely offensive player like Desharnais, he's good at both ends of the ice not just in the offensive zone.

Also, we don't hold back the other dmen by giving Subban easy minutes. We help the other dmen by giving Subban (and Gorges) the toughest minutes.


Last edited by DAChampion: 08-19-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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08-19-2012, 02:06 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I honestly think that a lot of people are biased against DD because of his size (it has been a criticism of the habs for the past 15 years and I think people don't want it to continue).
Size is very important.

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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
However all this talk of DD getting more offensive zone starts, easier competition, etc...what do you expect? Every top offensive centre in the league gets put in the best situation to help his team score goals. DD is our best playmaker - he should be getting those chances, what else would you expect? Just watch Vancouver. The Sedin's start in the offensive zone all the time - it's because that gives them the best chance to score goals, which is what they do best.
Henrik Sedin has 112, 94, and 81 points in the last three seasons. 112 and 94 points are worth building around. 81 points might be worth building around. 62 points? Not worth building around.

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I'm not comparing DD to Sedin
Yes you are.

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he is our best offensive centre
Plekanec has superior offensive skills, and soon Galchenyuk will be better than both of them.

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08-19-2012, 02:14 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Size is very important.


Henrik Sedin has 112, 94, and 81 points in the last three seasons. 112 and 94 points are worth building around. 81 points might be worth building around. 62 points? Not worth building around.


Yes you are.


Plekanec has superior offensive skills, and soon Galchenyuk will be better than both of them.
I agree that size is important, but smaller players can carve out a roster spot if they have other attributes to offer.

No, I'm not comparing DD to Sedin, only saying that they are best offensive centers on their respective teams. Sedin is obviously better than DD, however 62 points is substantial. Worth building around? Probably not. Worth a place on the team? Absolutely.

I would argue that DD is a smoother, better playmaker than Plek. We'll have to wait on Gally, but until he arrives, DD should continue to get prime offensive opportunities.

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08-19-2012, 02:22 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post

I would argue that DD is a smoother, better playmaker than Plek. We'll have to wait on Gally, but until he arrives, DD should continue to get prime offensive opportunities.
I don't think we should trade Desharnais right now beyond the cliche that every player is tradeable given the right offer.

With that said, there needs to be a 3rd line center spot ready and open for Galchenyuk at the start of the 2013-2014 season. That means one of two things:

1) One of Desharnais, Plekanec, or Eller gets traded; in this scenario it's important to be awake, and to realize that trade value is often (but not always) maximized at the deadline.
2) One of Desharnais, Plekanec, or Eller gets converted to wing.

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08-19-2012, 02:24 PM
  #208
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On a positive note, we haven't had discussions like these since the Price-Halak debates. It is a great sign that we're having this discussion about centres since we've had such poor depth at that position for what seems like forever. With DD, Plek, Eller, and soon Gally, we'll have 4 top 3 centres, which is a good problem to have.

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08-19-2012, 02:31 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
On a positive note, we haven't had discussions like these since the Price-Halak debates. [...]
No it isn't.

It's the classic habs board false dichotomy at work.

We got 3 good centers of which two have proven they can handle top 6 duties. Therefore, one must go.

This thread started good but now its a mess of logical fallacies...

Thread started about the vaue of his next contract, now the conversation has devolved into 'restructuring the team around him', which is ********...

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Old
08-19-2012, 02:39 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't think we should trade Desharnais right now beyond the cliche that every player is tradeable given the right offer.

With that said, there needs to be a 3rd line center spot ready and open for Galchenyuk at the start of the 2013-2014 season. That means one of two things:

1) One of Desharnais, Plekanec, or Eller gets traded; in this scenario it's important to be awake, and to realize that trade value is often (but not always) maximized at the deadline.
2) One of Desharnais, Plekanec, or Eller gets converted to wing.
I'm of the philosophy that you don't trade away good centre depth, so lets look at option 2.

The best candidate to move to the wing is Eller. I don't agree with moving DD to the wing because you're taking away his best assets. However, Eller is 6'2", good in the corners, can score goals. I know it is nice to have his size at C, but he could also make a great top 6 winger. I actually think he would be great on the same wing as DD, thereby giving Eller the benefit of DD's playmaking and DD the benefit of Eller's size and defensive play.

Eller - DD - Cole
or
Pac - DD - Eller

Would both be great lines.

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08-19-2012, 02:42 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
No it isn't.

It's the classic habs board false dichotomy at work.

We got 3 good centers of which two have proven they can handle top 6 duties. Therefore, one must go.

This thread started good but now its a mess of logical fallacies...

Thread started about the vaue of his next contract, now the conversation has devolved into 'restructuring the team around him', which is ********...
I agree that the "We have 2 good players, so 1 must go" threads can be frusterating. I just mean that when they pop up, it generally signals that the team is looking good at that position.

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08-19-2012, 02:42 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I'm of the philosophy that you don't trade away good centre depth, so lets look at option 2.

The best candidate to move to the wing is Eller. I don't agree with moving DD to the wing because you're taking away his best assets. However, Eller is 6'2", good in the corners, can score goals. I know it is nice to have his size at C, but he could also make a great top 6 winger. I actually think he would be great on the same wing as DD, thereby giving Eller the benefit of DD's playmaking and DD the benefit of Eller's size and defensive play.

Eller - DD - Cole
or
Pac - DD - Eller

Would both be great lines.
Ehhh...
Have you watched Eller play wing?
He was just ... absolutely terrible. Huge dropoff. Barely an NHL-winger.

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08-19-2012, 02:47 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
No it isn't.

It's the classic habs board false dichotomy at work.

We got 3 good centers of which two have proven they can handle top 6 duties. Therefore, one must go.

This thread started good but now its a mess of logical fallacies...

Thread started about the vaue of his next contract, now the conversation has devolved into 'restructuring the team around him', which is ********...
Well said. Can't we have depth at center (or anywere) for once?

As for Desharnais : DAChampion is right, he's not a great two way center. He's an offensive minded playmaking center and a very good one at that. Useless on such a powerhouse offense team like the Habs, I know...

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08-19-2012, 02:49 PM
  #214
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Ehhh...
Have you watched Eller play wing?
He was just ... absolutely terrible. Huge dropoff. Barely an NHL-winger.
I don't remember Eller playing wing for significant periods. He's played center almost exclusively with the habs except for a couple games here and there - usually with gomez if I'm not mistaken.

You could be right and he might not amount to much as a winger. However he's a smart player and has the attributes, so I don't see why he couldn't adapt if he was moved there long term.

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08-19-2012, 02:56 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Size is very important.


Henrik Sedin has 112, 94, and 81 points in the last three seasons. 112 and 94 points are worth building around. 81 points might be worth building around. 62 points? Not worth building around.


Yes you are.


Plekanec has superior offensive skills, and soon Galchenyuk will be better than both of them.
No he doesn't, he can't even work the cycle, ask Cammalleri... it's either on the perimeter, off the rush or on the PP with him. I thought it was pretty clear last year Desharnais proved to be the superior offensive player, with his vision, smarts, and ability to create plays out of nothing down low 5 on 5. With a top 15 PP (DD shouldn't play at the hash marks, and PK made awful decisions for the better part of the year) everybody on the top 2 lines would have had at the very least 5 more pts, and you guys wouldn't be talking about his 62 pts as if it were a negative. Our best wingers all played better with DD rather than TP (Max Pac, Cole, Cammy, AK). I wonder why?!

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08-19-2012, 02:57 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I don't remember Eller playing wing for significant periods. He's played center almost exclusively with the habs except for a couple games here and there - usually with gomez if I'm not mistaken.

You could be right and he might not amount to much as a winger. However he's a smart player and has the attributes, so I don't see why he couldn't adapt if he was moved there long term.
He's played a few shifts I remember. He wasn't very good but it wasn't a significant enough sample to say he couldn't ever play wing. Even at center there were games were Eller wasn't very useful.

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08-19-2012, 03:25 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I agree that size is important, but smaller players can carve out a roster spot if they have other attributes to offer.

No, I'm not comparing DD to Sedin, only saying that they are best offensive centers on their respective teams. Sedin is obviously better than DD, however 62 points is substantial. Worth building around? Probably not. Worth a place on the team? Absolutely.

I would argue that DD is a smoother, better playmaker than Plek. We'll have to wait on Gally, but until he arrives, DD should continue to get prime offensive opportunities.
why him and not Plekanec ? didnt #14 showed he could get 60/70 pts before last season ?

I get that you would give a 80/100 pts player more offensize zone starts... make sense...

but to DD ? we're just replacing a 60+ pts player by another, there's no gain for the team as a whole to do that...

I mean, it's great that DD get softer minutes and can get to 60+ pts because of that, but if it means Plekanec drop from 60/70 pts to 50... what's the point in doing so?

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08-19-2012, 03:51 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
why him and not Plekanec ? didnt #14 showed he could get 60/70 pts before last season ?

I get that you would give a 80/100 pts player more offensize zone starts... make sense...

but to DD ? we're just replacing a 60+ pts player by another, there's no gain for the team as a whole to do that...

I mean, it's great that DD get softer minutes and can get to 60+ pts because of that, but if it means Plekanec drop from 60/70 pts to 50... what's the point in doing so?
First off, I want to say that I'm a big fan of Plekanec. He plays hard always, doesn't complain, plays both ways, great on the PK, great speed, what's not to like?

But he's not a pure offensive player. He's had a 69 point season and a 70 point season. He also had a 39 point season. Other than that, he's been a 50-60 point player. In my opinion, his style is tough for his linemates to play off and he has trouble developing chemistry. He's always working in the right direction, but he just doesn't have the vision, or utilize his linemates as well as DD. This can't be seen with stats, but DD just seems more comfortable with the puck on his stick than TP.

Again, I'm a fan of TP, but he's more of a jitterbug where DD is so smooth and creates more for his linemates.

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08-19-2012, 04:08 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
First off, I want to say that I'm a big fan of Plekanec. He plays hard always, doesn't complain, plays both ways, great on the PK, great speed, what's not to like?

But he's not a pure offensive player. He's had a 69 point season and a 70 point season. He also had a 39 point season. Other than that, he's been a 50-60 point player. In my opinion, his style is tough for his linemates to play off and he has trouble developing chemistry. He's always working in the right direction, but he just doesn't have the vision, or utilize his linemates as well as DD. This can't be seen with stats, but DD just seems more comfortable with the puck on his stick than TP.

Again, I'm a fan of TP, but he's more of a jitterbug where DD is so smooth and creates more for his linemates.
at the end of the day, both can put as many points on the board, wether it seems easier for one is irrelevant, it doesnt give him bonus points or anything... result is more or less the same.

so, how does it help the team to sacrifice one for the other ?

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08-19-2012, 04:11 PM
  #220
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08-19-2012, 04:28 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
First off, I want to say that I'm a big fan of Plekanec. He plays hard always, doesn't complain, plays both ways, great on the PK, great speed, what's not to like?

But he's not a pure offensive player. He's had a 69 point season and a 70 point season. He also had a 39 point season. Other than that, he's been a 50-60 point player. In my opinion, his style is tough for his linemates to play off and he has trouble developing chemistry. He's always working in the right direction, but he just doesn't have the vision, or utilize his linemates as well as DD. This can't be seen with stats, but DD just seems more comfortable with the puck on his stick than TP.

Again, I'm a fan of TP, but he's more of a jitterbug where DD is so smooth and creates more for his linemates.
Your prose is nice, but the bottom line is that Plekanec has had more successful offensive seasons and did so without all the advantages Desharnais had this year. For example, when Plekanec produced 70 points two years ago, there were enough opportunities left for Scott Gomez to score 59 points. We didn't need to ask Gomez to play a purely defensive role.

Plekanec is a superior offensive and defensive player. If we trade him it is because he attracts a much better return on the trade market -- an entirely possible outcome.

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08-19-2012, 04:28 PM
  #222
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at the end of the day, both can put as many points on the board, wether it seems easier for one is irrelevant, it doesnt give him bonus points or anything... result is more or less the same.

so, how does it help the team to sacrifice one for the other ?
First off, because I believe DD has more offensive potential regardless of past statistics.

Secondly, Because TP is effective as a 50 point, shut down, PK centre, where DD can't play that role, so why try to fit a square peg into a round hole. I think we should let DD flourish offensively and see how far he can go. We know what Plek is at this point, and again, I love the guy, but DD (IMO) has the potential to go further.

Put it this way, what would you prefer:

1. Player A gets 60+ points in an offensive role; Player B gets 50+ points in a defensive role

2. Player B gets 60+ points in an offensive role; Player A can't survive as a defensive player, gets 25 points before being demoted in favour of a Kyle Chipchura type.

Playing to the players' strengths is for the benefit of the team.

I don't think this is a unique situation - Look at Briere in Philli.

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08-19-2012, 04:32 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
First off, because I believe DD has more offensive potential regardless of past statistics.

Secondly, Because TP is effective as a 50 point, shut down, PK centre, where DD can't play that role, so why try to fit a square peg into a round hole. I think we should let DD flourish offensively and see how far he can go. We know what Plek is at this point, and again, I love the guy, but DD (IMO) has the potential to go further.

Put it this way, what would you prefer:

1. Player A gets 60+ points in an offensive role; Player B gets 50+ points in a defensive role

2. Player B gets 60+ points in an offensive role; Player A can't survive as a defensive player, gets 25 points before being demoted in favour of a Kyle Chipchura type.

Playing to the players' strengths is for the benefit of the team
.

I don't think this is a unique situation - Look at Briere in Philli.
that's what coaches did last season, gave DD the chance to put up pts on the board and have Plekanec play a more defensive role... do I need to remind you how it ended for the team ?


and Briere isnt a good comparison, he's given softer minutes -> on a 2nd/3rd line...

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08-19-2012, 04:33 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
No it isn't.

It's the classic habs board false dichotomy at work.

We got 3 good centers of which two have proven they can handle top 6 duties. Therefore, one must go.

This thread started good but now its a mess of logical fallacies...

Thread started about the vaue of his next contract, now the conversation has devolved into 'restructuring the team around him', which is ********...
No, your post is the classic strawman.

Nobody is arguing that "one center must go". It's that we'll need to make room moving forward when Galchenyuk joins the team, when we'll have 4 top-9 centers not 3... "one center will probably need to go".

The three centers can stay up to the trade deadline.


Last edited by DAChampion: 08-19-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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08-19-2012, 04:41 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
that's what coaches did last season, gave DD the chance to put up pts on the board and have Plekanec play a more defensive role... do I need to remind you how it ended for the team ?

and Briere isnt a good comparison, he's given softer minutes -> on a 2nd/3rd line...
That's the way I see it.

We constructed the team around Desharnais last year the way Vancouver constructs their team around Sedin. If Desharnais had produced ~90 points like Sedin, we would have been a clear playoff team. However, we constructed our team around a 60 point center, and thus we ended up out of the playoff picture by a wide margin.

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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
First off, I want to say that I'm a big fan of Plekanec. He plays hard always, doesn't complain, plays both ways, great on the PK, great speed, what's not to like?

But he's not a pure offensive player. He's had a 69 point season and a 70 point season. He also had a 39 point season. Other than that, he's been a 50-60 point player. In my opinion, his style is tough for his linemates to play off and he has trouble developing chemistry. He's always working in the right direction, but he just doesn't have the vision, or utilize his linemates as well as DD. This can't be seen with stats, but DD just seems more comfortable with the puck on his stick than TP.

Again, I'm a fan of TP, but he's more of a jitterbug where DD is so smooth and creates more for his linemates.
Plekanec was a head case that 39 point season. Nearly every player has an off-year like that eventually.


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Originally Posted by muzion View Post
Our best wingers all played better with DD rather than TP (Max Pac, Cole, Cammy, AK). I wonder why?!
Easier competition.


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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
As for Desharnais ... He's an offensive minded playmaking center and a very good one at that. Useless on such a powerhouse offense team like the Habs, I know...
16th in the NHL in the best of circumstance for points in the best of circumstance, with a low goals to assist ratio and no defensive aptitude... is not "very good".


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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I agree that the "We have 2 good players, so 1 must go" threads can be frusterating. I just mean that when they pop up, it generally signals that the team is looking good at that position.
We have 4 good players: Plekanec, Eller, Desharnais, and soon, Galchenyuk.

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