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The MLD 2012 Assassination Thread

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Old
08-19-2012, 02:53 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have to retread the bios of Nicholsson. I'm not nearly as sold on him as you guys. Before the draft, I had both Turco and Bouchard on my list of "guys who would be okay starters here" over Nicholsson
I was very impressed by the bio seventies did last year in the comparison of stats against the rest of the era. Then again though, defense was much less goaltender based then than it is now. I guess I'll have to look into it more as well.

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08-19-2012, 02:58 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I was very impressed by the bio seventies did last year in the comparison of stats against the rest of the era. Then again though, defense was much less goaltender based then than it is now. I guess I'll have to look into it more as well.
By "stats," you mean just GAA right? It would have been a useful study if seventies showed that Nicholsson changed a team's GAA for the positive (a "with or without" study) but I don't think he did that.

Just comparing the raw GAA of guys who played for different teams isn't particularly meaningful IMO

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08-19-2012, 03:13 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Facts Bob Dailey was drafted by the Vancouver Canucks then traded to the Flyers for the platers stated up thread. Other than unattributed quotes and the comment of a GM who traded for him you have nothing viewable or verifiable. The video is what is available and the flaws Dailey shows are not injury related, nor are they one instant flaws.
For evaulation:



I found this video here that features a younger Dailey (#3 in blue), and he doesn't strike me as a particular adept skater. Very wide base, iffy balance, I'll adjust for size and call him average. Wobbly, unsure. Based on his technique, I might suggest that he had decent straight-ahead speed once he got enough time to get it going. There's one instance where he's the last man back with Chicago pressuring and he comes back into the play, but not to anyone in particular. It seems like he was probably a guy that defended the front of the net due to his size/strength, but I'm not sure he understands the game well defensively. I'd reckon (just speculating on the little video I've seen) that he probably chased the puck a lot in the defensive zone because he didn't understand how to use his teammates, namely his D partner, properly.

EDIT: Sorry, I think I might have goofed on the numbers. #2 gets victimized (Jocelyn Guevremont Mike Robitaille) - and he logs a lot of time for this team, but he's another guy that I wouldn't trust to protect a 3-goal lead with a minute to go. Holy hell...


Last edited by Mike Farkas: 08-20-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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08-19-2012, 03:23 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
For evaulation:



I found Dailey in here, very early in his career. Slightly more mobile, and I'll even adjust given his size, but it's not overly notable. I'd say "average" was about the best way to describe his skating even here in his relative youth. At the end of the video, around the 7:30 mark or so, Dailey is victimized for a goal in a situation that probably could have been avoided with proper positioning.
The reports on Dailey are "mobile for a big man." The qualifier is definitely noteworthy

He was a big, hard hitting, offensive defenseman. If he was great defensively, he'd go in the main draft, but I don't think he was bad either. Not surprising his positioning was a weakness, especially early in his career.

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08-19-2012, 03:39 PM
  #155
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Excellent Contribution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
For evaulation:



I found Dailey in here, very early in his career. Slightly more mobile, and I'll even adjust given his size, but it's not overly notable. I'd say "average" was about the best way to describe his skating even here in his relative youth. At the end of the video, around the 7:30 mark or so, Dailey is victimized for a goal in a situation that probably could have been avoided with proper positioning.
Excellent contribution and well done on the film breakdown. Contrast Dailey's on ice positioning and awareness to Bill White #2 Chicago, not as tall or heavy but much older. White is a lot more efficient.

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08-19-2012, 03:43 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The reports on Dailey are "mobile for a big man." The qualifier is definitely noteworthy

He was a big, hard hitting, offensive defenseman. If he was great defensively, he'd go in the main draft, but I don't think he was bad either. Not surprising his positioning was a weakness, especially early in his career.
Also a weakness five years later as evidenced by the 1980 video. Some never learn.

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08-19-2012, 03:52 PM
  #157
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Amended my post above. I was looking for #2 on Vancouver (the number he wore in Philly), upon further review Dailey was #3. My apologies. Not a whole lot different of an outcome. #3 is worse skater than #2. For whatever it's worth - my apologies if this isn't ATD protocol, my natural instinct is to evaluate with the eye, for better or for worse.

Though, I got a lesson on defense from Jocelyn Guevremont Mike Robitaille that I will never be able to un-see...yikes...


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08-19-2012, 04:07 PM
  #158
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So who's the next player we're going to put on the proverbial dartboard and exploit every exaggerated possible flaw on?

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08-19-2012, 04:23 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Dave Gardner only scored 18 career PP goals in the NHL, season high of 6.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gardnda01.html

Looks like everything you say should be fact checked.

1974-75 Golden Seals two of his teammates had 8 PPG - Patey and Hrechosy. 1976-77 Barons three of his teammates had more PPG than Gardner's 5.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CLE/1977.html

Nyrop was simply more efficient, stay at home defenseman low risk.


Obviously I was mistzaken.

I do, however, find it hilarious that you didn't immediately realize I was talking about Paul Gardner.

Point still stands… It's not like they were just giving up garbage for Sgt.… It was three players who were expected to be NHL players.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You are just reinforcing the point about Bingo Kampman:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...kampmbi01.html

He is one of the few to actually play hockey in the services during the three WWII seasons.

Others missed significant hockey time but made it back.
Yes, and he played a grand total of 17 games in those three seasons, at a drastically lower level of competition. Surely you know that it is harder to get back into game shape after playing down to this level for so long and not having much game experience in that time…

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
By "stats," you mean just GAA right? It would have been a useful study if seventies showed that Nicholsson changed a team's GAA for the positive (a "with or without" study) but I don't think he did that.

Just comparing the raw GAA of guys who played for different teams isn't particularly meaningful IMO
I think it is somewhat meaningful, but only meant to be a rough guide. It is possible that his goals-against averages weren't actually that's impressive compared to his leagues, and that the other goalies in the comparison were in fact good compared to their leagues. I would have to do a more Thorough analysis to determine if this is the case and if there is actually some fire behind that smike. I do truly suspect that there is, although it's possibled we'll see somewhat different results to what I originally concluded. They would certainly be more nuanced, at least. I do invite his current GM to take a look at this.

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So who's the next player we're going to put on the proverbial dartboard and exploit every exaggerated possible flaw on?

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08-19-2012, 04:32 PM
  #160
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I think it is somewhat meaningful, but only meant to be a rough guide. It is possible that his goals-against averages weren't actually that's impressive compared to his leagues, and that the other goalies in the comparison were in fact good compared to their leagues. I would have to do a more Thorough analysis to determine if this is the case and if there is actually some fire behind that smike. I do truly suspect that there is, although it's possibled we'll see somewhat different results to what I originally concluded. They would certainly be more nuanced, at least. I do invite his current GM to take a look at this.
Right. It's certainly possible that Nicholsson really was good; I just don't know if the work has been done for that. We know he isn't in the HHOF like Paddy Moran and Riley Hern. And skimming the profile, I don't really see quotes from contemporaries calling him the greatest in the world or all-time noteworthy like my partner was able to find about Moran

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08-19-2012, 04:46 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post


Obviously I was mistzaken.

I do, however, find it hilarious that you didn't immediately realize I was talking about Paul Gardner.

Point still stands… It's not like they were just giving up garbage for Sgt.… It was three players who were expected to be NHL players.



Yes, and he played a grand total of 17 games in those three seasons, at a drastically lower level of competition. Surely you know that it is harder to get back into game shape after playing down to this level for so long and not having much game experience in that time…
Just wanted to see how long it would take you to spin your factual error.

Point is that Bingo Kampman had some ice time during threea seasons whereas others who did come back had less.

Milt Schmidt had zero game time for three seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...schmimi01.html

Your spin is not working for Bingo.

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08-19-2012, 05:29 PM
  #162
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Judgements vary greatly, obviously, as you claim that Lokomotiv's netminding is among the top-3 listed while I think our goaltending is not even top-3 in our own division! Now, don't get me wrong, it's fine, but... the top-3 are to my mind these remarkable creases I'd trade wholesale (as a duo) for any time:
I wasn't posting anybody from my own team, so that's why the Mania tandem wasn't included. Since you brought it up, I do agree that any list of best goaltending in this draft has to include our guys. In my view, Moran is easily the best starter, and the gap is not small. Lemelin is among the elite back-ups, and might even be better than a handful of starters.


As for Paton and Nicholson, I'm not quite sold. Their best case for beig drafted is their GAA, and that has a lot more to do with the team in front of a goalie than it has to do with him. There is some evidence that Nicholson was a good goalie in his time.

Personally, I would like to see some contemporary opinions on the guys. The only descriptions of Paton we have are from Utimate Hockey (Hockey-Notes.com was the online version until it was taken down). All we really know about Paton was that he was the starting goalie on an excellent team. To me, that means he was likely one of the better goalies of his time, but it's not enough to say he was elite.

Billy Nicholson is kind of in the same boat. We have a few contemporary reports, but very little that talks about how good he actually was. "He made a tough" is nice, but how many goalies don't make tough saves now and again? Like Paton, the best evidence we have for him was that he played for a championship team.

Basically, we don't know enough about either guy to really make a legitimate claim about how good they were.

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08-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #163
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Basically, we don't know enough about either guy to really make a legitimate claim about how good they were.
So,... you think we know a lot about a guy who did great in a third-tier level (Czech league 50s) and well in second tier play (international 1940s-1950s), but we don't know enough about a guy who did very well in the top tier level of his time, against the best of his era?

I don't get how one person could hold both judgements, about Zabrodsky and Paton, unless one appeals to the fact that Zabrodsky is on your squad versus Paton being on a divisional rival's. Why the scepticism on the one hand and faith on the other? especially given the two radically different levels of competition?

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08-19-2012, 05:55 PM
  #164
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I've got to ask and I think it's an important question. Should europeans be cross-compared to their canadian counterparts in the earlier eras?

When the soviets started to play hockey they were basically at the same level as canadians when they started, correct. Isn't it unfair then to compare them to a culture who has played hockey for nearly 5 decades longer?

For example, Tom Paton gets great recognition here and Im fine with it. No doubt he was a great goalie but were he greater than a Soviet/Swedish/Finnish/Czech goalie at the same level or era?

Obviously it would be pretty complicated to determine what era each country is in at a certain given time but I feel its something that should atleast be explored.

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08-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Just wanted to see how long it would take you to spin your factual error.

Point is that Bingo Kampman had some ice time during threea seasons whereas others who did come back had less.

Milt Schmidt had zero game time for three seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...schmimi01.html

Your spin is not working for Bingo.
Let's go back and retrace our steps here. You used the fact that he couldn't make the NHL after three years off as evidence that he was slow. When challened you provided no other evidence to back it up. Milt Schmidt, one of the finest players of all-time, proves nothing. He was good enough to recover. Kampman wasn't. All the guys who were, were drafted a long time ago.

Clearly the knock on Kampman is his short career. If he had a 15 year career of fairly significant all star votes, contribution to winning teams, physicality and legendary strength, he would be in Leo Reise territory. But he played 5 years. This is why he is an 1100th-ish pick. The footspeed thing is just a really stinky red herring. Not sure why you feel the need to make it about something it's not.

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08-19-2012, 05:59 PM
  #166
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Obviously it would be pretty complicated to determine what era each country is in at a certain given time but I feel its something that should atleast be explored.
We usually compare a player to the best players of his era, regardless of country! The best players in the world in the sport of ice hockey is the standard and level of play by which all-time greatness is judged around here most times.

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08-19-2012, 06:02 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
So who's the next player we're going to put on the proverbial dartboard and exploit every exaggerated possible flaw on?
My vote is for Guy Boucher. Two seasons as an NHL coach, coach of the year in the AHL, one conference finals appearance, and a 4th place finish in Jack Adams voting. I'm not seeing what he contributes at this level as an assistant coach. The assistant coach doesn't dictate the system that the team plays, that's a head coach's job. And I'm pretty sure the entire reason he was drafted was because of the system he utilizes in Tampa. So if he can't implement that system as an assistant coach, what does he offer?

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08-19-2012, 06:03 PM
  #168
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We usually compare a player to the best players of his era, regardless of country! The best players in the world in the sport of ice hockey is the standard and level of play by which all-time greatness is judged around here most times.
Thats basically what I'm getting at. Early era canadians gets a free pass because they were the only ones playing hockey at the time while other countries players gets punished for not inventing the sport.

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08-19-2012, 06:05 PM
  #169
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My vote is for Guy Boucher. Two seasons as an NHL coach, coach of the year in the AHL, one conference finals appearance, and a 4th place finish in Jack Adams voting. I'm not seeing what he contributes at this level as an assistant coach. The assistant coach doesn't dictate the system that the team plays, that's a head coach's job. And I'm pretty sure the entire reason he was drafted was because of the system he utilizes in Tampa. So if he can't implement that system as an assistant coach, what does he offer?
He offers experience of that particular system. Its not about implemting it I believe, more about having someone with expert opinion on how it works/weaknesses.

Am I correct, Canadiens?

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08-19-2012, 06:09 PM
  #170
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So,... you think we know a lot about a guy who did great in a third-tier level (Czech league 50s) and well in second tier play (international 1940s-1950s), but we don't know enough about a guy who did very well in the top tier level of his time, against the best of his era?

I don't get how one person could hold both judgements, about Zabrodsky and Paton, unless one appeals to the fact that Zabrodsky is on your squad versus Paton being on a divisional rival's. Why the scepticism on the one hand and faith on the other? especially given the two radically different levels of competition?
Well, first of all, with the information posted about how Canada selected it's representative teams for the World Championships, I'm not nearly as high on Zabrodsky as I was when we picked him. Even when we picked him, he was kind of mystery, which is why he's always been a sppare. Futhermore, when we making our pitch for Zabodsky as a 2nd liner, the biggest point of comparison was Sven Tumba, somebody with who there is a comparable level of competition. I'm not sure what you think we were claiming about him, but it certainly wasn't aywhere near the level of "best goalie".

Second, there's a lot more information available on Zabrodsy than there is on Paton and Nicholson. We know Zabrodsky's style of play, we know most of his scoring accomplishments, and we know how good he was compared to the players he played against. The only mystery with him is how good his competition was. With Billy Nicholson, we have some contemporary quotes, even though only a few are actually meaningful, and a 2nd team all-star selection in 1908. That's not very much, but at least it's something. With Tom Paton, there has yet to be anything found to show how good he was. I was actually glad when 70s picked him - I thought he'd finally get the profile he deserved, but that didn't happen. Paton has now been "owned" by multiple GMs who are known for their ability to dig up information, and there is still nothing substantial to support his greatness.

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08-19-2012, 06:13 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
My vote is for Guy Boucher. Two seasons as an NHL coach, coach of the year in the AHL, one conference finals appearance, and a 4th place finish in Jack Adams voting. I'm not seeing what he contributes at this level as an assistant coach. The assistant coach doesn't dictate the system that the team plays, that's a head coach's job. And I'm pretty sure the entire reason he was drafted was because of the system he utilizes in Tampa. So if he can't implement that system as an assistant coach, what does he offer?
Not always true in terms of the systems statement. IIRC one of the big things that Lou Vairo (it's OK to discuss coaches that have never been selected, right?) did for the 1980 US team, at least according to the book Herb Brooks: The Inside Story of a Hockey Mastermind, is basically be the presence on the coaching team that understands the most difficult oppositions tactics (eastern bloc and specifically the Soviets in this case) inside and out and understands how to counter it.

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08-19-2012, 06:15 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
My vote is for Guy Boucher. Two seasons as an NHL coach, coach of the year in the AHL, one conference finals appearance, and a 4th place finish in Jack Adams voting. I'm not seeing what he contributes at this level as an assistant coach. The assistant coach doesn't dictate the system that the team plays, that's a head coach's job. And I'm pretty sure the entire reason he was drafted was because of the system he utilizes in Tampa. So if he can't implement that system as an assistant coach, what does he offer?
That's not true. It depends entirely on the team of coaches. A great head coach is going to undertand is strengths and weaknesses, and he's going to bring in assistsants who are going to be able to fill the gaps.

That's why I was never a big fan of Pat Quinn. He was always a great player's coach, but never a good systems guy. There's nothing wrong with that - I'd probably rank myself with similar strengths and weaknesses as a coach. The problem is that he never brought in the help he required.

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08-19-2012, 06:27 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur
Personally, I would like to see some contemporary opinions on the guys. The only descriptions of Paton we have are from Utimate Hockey (Hockey-Notes.com was the online version until it was taken down). All we really know about Paton was that he was the starting goalie on an excellent team. To me, that means he was likely one of the better goalies of his time, but it's not enough to say he was elite.

Billy Nicholson is kind of in the same boat. We have a few contemporary reports, but very little that talks about how good he actually was. "He made a tough" is nice, but how many goalies don't make tough saves now and again? Like Paton, the best evidence we have for him was that he played for a championship team.
Even if Paton was the best goalie of his day (and I think he probably was), what does that even mean? Can anyone here even name another goalie who played before 1895 off the top of your head? (No cheating!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
So,... you think we know a lot about a guy who did great in a third-tier level (Czech league 50s) and well in second tier play (international 1940s-1950s), but we don't know enough about a guy who did very well in the top tier level of his time, against the best of his era?

I don't get how one person could hold both judgements, about Zabrodsky and Paton, unless one appeals to the fact that Zabrodsky is on your squad versus Paton being on a divisional rival's. Why the scepticism on the one hand and faith on the other? especially given the two radically different levels of competition?
We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Zabrodsky was the best European hockey player in the late 1940s (and that he continued to perform reasonably well into the 1950s). There is uncertainty as to how that translates, as European hockey was still in its early developmental stage in the 1950s. With Nicholsson, we have no frame of reference; no idea how he ranks versus his peers, other than raw GAA. I don't find the newspaper accounts provided to be that compelling. Right now, the best evidence for Nicholsson is that he kept his starting job in a small league for a number of years; I just don't see that can be more impressive than someone who was considered a top 5 goalie in the NHL for a few years, like a lot of the other starters here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs
I've got to ask and I think it's an important question. Should europeans be cross-compared to their canadian counterparts in the earlier eras?

When the soviets started to play hockey they were basically at the same level as canadians when they started, correct. Isn't it unfair then to compare them to a culture who has played hockey for nearly 5 decades longer?

For example, Tom Paton gets great recognition here and Im fine with it. No doubt he was a great goalie but were he greater than a Soviet/Swedish/Finnish/Czech goalie at the same level or era?

Obviously it would be pretty complicated to determine what era each country is in at a certain given time but I feel its something that should atleast be explored.
For a long time, I've said that Europeans from the development period (pre-1960s) should be considered on par with Canadians from the developmental period (before 1895 or so?). Basically, if you come from a culture where there was no competitive hockey when you were a child (affects development), you should be treated similarly.

I have no idea why Tom Paton and Allan Cameron are treated differently from someone like Zabrodsky, but that isn't a popular opinion here

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08-19-2012, 06:27 PM
  #174
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He offers experience of that particular system. Its not about implemting it I believe, more about having someone with expert opinion on how it works/weaknesses.

Am I correct, Canadiens?
Really a question of both. How to adjust to attack and defend against the 1-3-1 while taking elements from it to benefit the Orfuns.

Guy Boucher also brings various modern psychological, technical, systematic and international backgrounds to the staff.

Claude Ruel and Guy Boucher give the Orfuns an extensive and diverse coaching background, unmatched by other coaches or staffs in the MLD.

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Old
08-19-2012, 06:35 PM
  #175
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post

Claude Ruel and Guy Boucher give the Orfuns an extensive and diverse coaching background, unmatched by other coaches or staffs in the MLD.
And a combined 5 full seasons of NHL head coaching experience plus two partial seasons

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