HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Notices

The Luongo Thread: We're doing 65, so we should be there in a billion years...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-19-2012, 04:38 PM
  #976
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
+100000

It's absolutely absurd that some people think a 20-30 point 3rd line center will improve our offense. This team has trouble scoring, let's get more 3rd line grinders!!!
I've proven the point before, our top 6 scores at about the rate of recent cup winners in the playoffs, our bottom 6 is where we are being significantly outscored.

Scurr is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:46 PM
  #977
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 14,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
It's also kind of funny that you're willing to see what Schroeder can do but are completely counting Kassian out. Wing is the much easier position to succeed at for a young guy and Kassian is the much better prospect.
This is where Pauser has obviously gone wrong. If Schroeder doesn't succeed in a 3rd line role we know we can't ice a 3 line attack and improve production from the bottom 6. If Kassian doesn't succeed in a 2nd line RW role we have Higgins, Hansen and Raymond to fall back on. All players with a track record of 2nd line production.

Never mind the fact Kassian showed more at the AHL level than Jordan Schroeder ever has or that he has some NHL experience under his belt and an extra 8 inches and 60 lbs at his disposal in a league that looks poised to head back to another clutch and grab, dead puck era.

It's not ideal having Higgins, Hansen or Raymond on the 2nd line RW. It's even less palatable IMO having Lapierre or Malhotra centring the 3rd line. And this is without even taking into account the status of Ryan Kesler...

Drop the Sopel is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:48 PM
  #978
YogiCanucks
Registered User
 
YogiCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,428
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I've proven the point before, our top 6 scores at about the rate of recent cup winners in the playoffs, our bottom 6 is where we are being significantly outscored.
I don't think anyone would argue too much that Goc would improve our 3rd line. But how about we just trade a 3rd rounder + mid level prospect for him rather than our best tradeable asset?

YogiCanucks is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:51 PM
  #979
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
I don't think anyone would argue too much that Goc would improve our 3rd line. But how about we just trade a 3rd rounder + mid level prospect for him rather than our best tradeable asset?
Florida is not going to trade Goc for that. Heck, they aren't likely to trade him for Lu either considering their lack of centre depth.

Scurr is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:52 PM
  #980
KISSland
Registered User
 
KISSland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,682
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
I don't think anyone would argue too much that Goc would improve our 3rd line. But how about we just trade a 3rd rounder + mid level prospect for him rather than our best tradeable asset?
I don't think he's available anyway. Their depth is so weak they're playing him on the 2nd line..

KISSland is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:54 PM
  #981
Vankiller Whale
Win it for AV
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,802
vCash: 5100
Quote:
Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
I don't think anyone would argue too much that Goc would improve our 3rd line. But how about we just trade a 3rd rounder + mid level prospect for him rather than our best tradeable asset?
I doubt Florida would let their 2nd line centre go unless it's for a serious improvement on ice.

Goc wouldn't even make up most of the value in what we want back. Goc+1st+Petrovic is a very nice package.

Vankiller Whale is online now  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:54 PM
  #982
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 14,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
I don't think anyone would argue too much that Goc would improve our 3rd line. But how about we just trade a 3rd rounder + mid level prospect for him rather than our best tradeable asset?
Because Florida likely won't entertain moving Goc for anything less than an upgrade at centre or an impact player. He's their 2nd line centre and they don't have much behind him on the depth chart.

There are countless teams looking to upgrade their centre ice positions. If clubs like Chicago that are desperate to find a quality centreman can't do so, there's a reason for it.

Why is it that the posters that want a top 6 RW for Luongo never throw names into the mix? So let's hear it, who are these gritty top 6 players that are going to singlehandedly end our lack of playoff goalscoring?

Drop the Sopel is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 04:58 PM
  #983
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Why is it that the posters that want a top 6 RW for Luongo never throw names into the mix? So let's hear it, who are these gritty top 6 players that are going to singlehandedly end our lack of playoff goalscoring?
Patty Kane... where have you been?

Scurr is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:01 PM
  #984
Dado
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Patty Kane... where have you been?
What?

Chicago is offering Kane for a Luongo++ package?

 
Old
08-19-2012, 05:03 PM
  #985
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,727
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
I am so glad many people here aren't in charge of this team. We'd be trading an elite goalie for crap. We would have traded Bieksa for crap a long time ago. This team would be screwed.

y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:08 PM
  #986
Dado
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
We'd be trading an elite goalie for crap.
It's not what people WANT to do - it's people responding to what the marketplace is saying.

Going to be very interesting to see how this all ends up playing out...

 
Old
08-19-2012, 05:08 PM
  #987
KISSland
Registered User
 
KISSland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,682
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I am so glad many people here aren't in charge of this team. We'd be trading an elite goalie for crap. We would have traded Bieksa for crap a long time ago. This team would be screwed.
Likewise Pauser.

KISSland is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:09 PM
  #988
aandbreatheme
Registered User
 
aandbreatheme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Going to be very interesting to see how this all ends up playing out...
Yes, yes it is.

aandbreatheme is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:12 PM
  #989
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 14,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I am so glad many people here aren't in charge of this team. We'd be trading an elite goalie for crap. We would have traded Bieksa for crap a long time ago. This team would be screwed.
Maybe you overvalue Canuck players? Afterall, you did shoot down my Mason Raymond for Bobby Ryan trade proposal a few years ago saying it was a bad deal for us.

Drop the Sopel is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:13 PM
  #990
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I am so glad many people here aren't in charge of this team. We'd be trading an elite goalie for crap. We would have traded Bieksa for crap a long time ago. This team would be screwed.
I would love to go back and compare the moves that I've been interested in over the years to the ones that you have been. Would be a fun exercise.

Scurr is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:23 PM
  #991
Vankiller Whale
Win it for AV
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,802
vCash: 5100
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I am so glad many people here aren't in charge of this team. We'd be trading an elite goalie for crap. We would have traded Bieksa for crap a long time ago. This team would be screwed.
Goc+1st+Petrovic =\= crap.

What would you trade Luongo for? Which team has a top-6 forward who can single-handedly revitalize our playoff scoring, that is expendable for a goalie?

Vankiller Whale is online now  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:25 PM
  #992
aandbreatheme
Registered User
 
aandbreatheme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Maybe you overvalue Canuck players? Afterall, you did shoot down my Mason Raymond for Bobby Ryan trade proposal a few years ago saying it was a bad deal for us.
Not really. Just Luongo it seems.

aandbreatheme is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:26 PM
  #993
opendoor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I've proven the point before, our top 6 scores at about the rate of recent cup winners in the playoffs, our bottom 6 is where we are being significantly outscored.
I'm not so sure about that. Here were the top 5 scoring forwards for the Canucks in the 10-11 playoffs in terms of points per game:

H. Sedin: 0.88
D. Sedin: 0.80
Kesler: 0.76
Burrows: 0.68
Hansen: 0.36


Decent scoring from the top end, but after the first 4 guys it completely went to crap. Compare that to the last 5 cup winners:


11-12 Kings:

Kopitar: 1.00
Brown: 1.00
Richards: 0.75
Williams: 0.75
Carter: 0.65

10-11 Bruins:

Krejci: 0.92
Bergeron: 0.87
Horton: 0.81
Marchand: 0.76
Ryder: 0.68

09-10 Blackhawks:

Toews: 1.32
Kane: 1.27
Sharp: 1.00
Byfuglien: 0.73
Bolland: 0.73


08-09 Penguins:

Malkin: 1.50
Crosby: 1.29
Guerin: 0.62
Fedotenko: 0.58
Kunitz: 0.58


07-08 Red Wings:

Zetterberg: 1.23
Franzen: 1.12
Datsyuk: 1.05
Hudler: 0.64
Samuelsson: 0.59


So better top end scoring (Boston was the only team without 2 point per game players) and much better scoring from bottom of the top 6.


The Kings just won the cup with their 3rd line C putting up 5 points in 20 games; Lapierre only putting up 5 points in 25 would've been much less of a problem if the Canucks could've had 2nd line wingers that would actually produce above a 30 point pace. 11-12 was a similar story (in an albeit tiny sample size). Henrik played well and Kesler pitched in a few points, but the wingers other than Daniel produced squat. That's a problem going forward.

If you compare the outputs of the Canucks 7th-9th forwards in terms of pts/game to past cup winners you're really only looking at a deficit of about 2 goals over an entire playoff run, and that's certainly not going to turn their anemic playoff offense into a cup caliber one. They need either better top end scoring (probably not going to happen at this point, nor is it really a fair expectation) or a stronger set of 2nd line wingers. The 3rd and 4th lines aren't really going to get the ice time or opportunity to fundamentally alter what has been a pretty terrible offense over the past 2 playoffs.

opendoor is online now  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:26 PM
  #994
Derp Kassian
Registered User
 
Derp Kassian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,006
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Goc+1st+Petrovic =\= crap.

What would you trade Luongo for? Which team has a top-6 forward who can single-handedly revitalize our playoff scoring, that is expendable for a goalie with that contract
Fixed

Derp Kassian is online now  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:30 PM
  #995
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
The Kings just won the cup with their 3rd line putting up 5 points in 20 games.
I'm not sure what you're looking at, Dwight King had 5 goals by himself.

Scurr is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:32 PM
  #996
opendoor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'm not sure what you're looking at, Dwight King had 5 goals by himself.
I edited it because I forgot to put the C after 3rd line. I was referring to Stoll.

opendoor is online now  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:33 PM
  #997
Vankiller Whale
Win it for AV
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,802
vCash: 5100
Personally I would roll with Booth and Kassian/Raymond in our top 6. If none of those add the depth we need, acquire Perry at the deadline.

Vankiller Whale is online now  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:35 PM
  #998
Shareefruck
Registered User
 
Shareefruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
This is where Pauser has obviously gone wrong. If Schroeder doesn't succeed in a 3rd line role we know we can't ice a 3 line attack and improve production from the bottom 6. If Kassian doesn't succeed in a 2nd line RW role we have Higgins, Hansen and Raymond to fall back on. All players with a track record of 2nd line production.

Never mind the fact Kassian showed more at the AHL level than Jordan Schroeder ever has or that he has some NHL experience under his belt and an extra 8 inches and 60 lbs at his disposal in a league that looks poised to head back to another clutch and grab, dead puck era.

It's not ideal having Higgins, Hansen or Raymond on the 2nd line RW. It's even less palatable IMO having Lapierre or Malhotra centring the 3rd line. And this is without even taking into account the status of Ryan Kesler...
I'll side with Pauser on this one. The center playing on the 3rd line is probably going to play with Higgins and Hansen, two guys who are absolutely ideal 3rd liners, have excellent chemistry together, and have carried just about any center we've thrown at them. Higgins - Lapierre - Hansen was fantastic, Higgins - Hodgson - Hansen has been fantastic, Higgins - Pahlsson - Hansen has been fantastic, hell even Higgins - Malhotra - Hansen has been pretty decent. Schroeder will be fine in the role, even if he isn't great right away. Hell, even if these guys get injured, look at who you have on the 4th line behind them-- Raymond, Lapierre, Malhotra, Kassian... all guys who can be 3rd liners in a pinch.

The second line on the other hand, has been a nightmare. Every player besides Higgins (and assuming Kesler will bounce back) has been awful in that role. You need to find someone BETTER than whoever fits as the 3rd line center in order to have them have chemistry with Kesler AND make up for Booth's deficiencies. Whoever plays the other wing on that line, like Higgins did, is going to have to do a lot of the heavy-lifting, both in terms of making plays, carrying the puck, and coming back defensively, because Booth sure as hell isn't going to do it. That line has been a weakness last year regardless of who we threw on it-- The 3rd line has been strength regardless of who we threw on it.

Schroeder, Lapierre, Malhotra, one of them, if not all of them are going to be half-way decent choices for 3rd line center, even if they aren't ideal.

On the second line, unless you break up the rest of the team by putting Higgins/Hansen there, everyone else is an awful choice. That's alot of pressure to put on Kassian that I don't think he's ready for, personally.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 08-19-2012 at 05:40 PM.
Shareefruck is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:42 PM
  #999
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
If you compare the outputs of the Canucks 7th-9th forwards in terms of pts/game to past cup winners you're really only looking at a deficit of about 2 goals over an entire playoff run
The Kings bottom 6 contributed 13 goals in 20 games, ours pitched in 9 in 25. That's pretty significant production, no?

Scurr is offline  
Old
08-19-2012, 05:47 PM
  #1000
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 14,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
The center playing on the 3rd line is probably going to play with Higgins and Hansen, two guys who are absolutely ideal 3rd liners, have excellent chemistry together, and have carried just about any center we've thrown at them.
As of right now it looks like Chris Higgins will be in the top 6. He's been the best compliment to Kesler and helps cover for Booth's defensive deficiencies. And if Higgins is struggling or injured than Jannik Hansen probably takes his place.

I just think it's a bit premature to assume Schroeder, a player with zero NHL games under his belt will be ready to excel in a 3rd line role. Normally when breaking in a young player it's best to have them used sparingly as an injury replacement IMO and go from there. Unfortunately the Canucks couldn't find a way to get Schroeder a look last season - it would have given us a better idea where he's at.

If there's a legitimate top 6 talent like Kris Versteeg that the Canucks could pry away in a Luongo deal, I'm all for it. Unfortunately Florida is already very thin on talent up front and there don't appear to be many good fits out of Chicago or Toronto.

The Canucks still have 2 glaring holes up front IMO. If Luongo can be used to fill one of them, while adding some quality youth or picks we're a better team for it. There's still other assets that could be moved to address needs, likely at or near the deadline.

Drop the Sopel is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.