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David Desharnais next contract

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Old
08-19-2012, 05:51 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Your prose is nice, but the bottom line is that Plekanec has had more successful offensive seasons and did so without all the advantages Desharnais had this year. For example, when Plekanec produced 70 points two years ago, there were enough opportunities left for Scott Gomez to score 59 points. We didn't need to ask Gomez to play a purely defensive role.

Plekanec is a superior offensive and defensive player. If we trade him it is because he attracts a much better return on the trade market -- an entirely possible outcome.
Are you sure about that? He played with Cammy and Kostitsyn which was our #1 line at the time. I'm sure they were given every opportunity to score the puck.

For his 70 point season, he was Kovalev's centerman when he had his 84 point season. Again, I'm sure that line was given more offensive opportunities than other line during that season.

My point is that any teams #1 line will be given these "advantages" you are talking about. Plekanec has had them and performed in the past. DD has more chemistry with our top wingers and so is getting those advantages now. If Plek had the same chemistry, he'd still be getting those opportunities. The fact is that DD utilizes our best wingers better than Plek can, and so is now getting those opportunities.

Plek can perform in seemingly any situation, so he can adapt to playing a more defensive role.

The best comparison for DD I can think of is Marc Savard. When healthy, he was the No 1 offensive C despite the fact that Bergeron is also an excellent 2 way C. Ultimately DD is slightly better than TP offensively, but TP is superior defensively, much like Savard/Bergeron.

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08-19-2012, 05:53 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That's the way I see it.

We constructed the team around Desharnais last year the way Vancouver constructs their team around Sedin. If Desharnais had produced ~90 points like Sedin, we would have been a clear playoff team. However, we constructed our team around a 60 point center, and thus we ended up out of the playoff picture by a wide margin.
that's the issue IMO, I dont mind DD, he's ok...


but if we're to sacrifice a 60 pts player like Plekanec, it has to be for someone who can himself put a lot more than 60 or so points otherwise it's not even good enough to be qualified as a lateral move...

sacrifice a 20pts player for a 40pts player ? excellent
sacrifice a 20pts player for another 20pts player ? it's AT BEST a lateral move...

and that's what we see now, we sacrifice a 60 pts player (Plek) so another 60 pts player (DD) can take his spot... waste of time and effort IMO.

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08-19-2012, 06:05 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Are you sure about that? He played with Cammy and Kostitsyn which was our #1 line at the time. I'm sure they were given every opportunity to score the puck.

For his 70 point season, he was Kovalev's centerman when he had his 84 point season. Again, I'm sure that line was given more offensive opportunities than other line during that season.

My point is that any teams #1 line will be given these "advantages" you are talking about. Plekanec has had them and performed in the past. DD has more chemistry with our top wingers and so is getting those advantages now. If Plek had the same chemistry, he'd still be getting those opportunities. The fact is that DD utilizes our best wingers better than Plek can, and so is now getting those opportunities.

Plek can perform in seemingly any situation, so he can adapt to playing a more defensive role.

The best comparison for DD I can think of is Marc Savard. When healthy, he was the No 1 offensive C despite the fact that Bergeron is also an excellent 2 way C. Ultimately DD is slightly better than TP offensively, but TP is superior defensively, much like Savard/Bergeron.
I don't know if you remember the general dialogue in Montreal after Plekanec scored 70 points that season. We had just finished 1st in the conference and people were discussing how to be a true cup contender, not how to scramble for 8th place.

The discussion was about how the Montreal Canadiens are weak down the middle. Gainey tried to get Sundin but he didn't want to come. Gainey then got Robert Lang. Gainey thent tried to get Lecavalier but the asking price was not anchored in reality. There was a rumour about bringing in Sergei Zinovjev from Russia. Gainey finally pulled the trigger on the Gomez trade and declared victory.

In the same way that Desharnais can get ~60 points in the best of circumstance, Plekanec can get a significantly superior ~70 points in the best of circumstance, and also contribute 3 minutes a game on the penalty kill, which he did twice. That's much better than what DD gave us on both offense and defense, and you know what? There was a general consensus in Habs fandom that while Plekanec as a number 1 center was good enough to make the playoffs, it wasn't good enough to be a true contender.

That was back in the day of high expectations in Habs land, now that we've regressed to a fandom that thinks 8th place is the one true ambition, we're happy with Desharnais and his 60 points even though we weren't happy with Plekanec and his 70 points a few years prior.

****************

Marc Savard, when healthy, had seasons of 97, 96, 78, and 88 points --- totally different from the 62 points of Desharnais. If Desharnais had produced 90 points we would have been a playoff team imo.

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08-19-2012, 06:07 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't know if you remember the general dialogue in Montreal after Plekanec scored 70 points that season. We had just finished 1st in the conference and people were discussing how to be a true cup contender, not how to scramble for 8th place.

The discussion was about how the Montreal Canadiens are weak down the middle. Gainey tried to get Sundin but he didn't want to come. Gainey then got Robert Lang. Gainey thent tried to get Lecavalier but the asking price was not anchored in reality. There was a rumour about bringing in Sergei Zinovjev from Russia. Gainey finally pulled the trigger on the Gomez trade and declared victory.

In the same way that Desharnais can get ~60 points in the best of circumstance, Plekanec can get a significantly superior ~70 points in the best of circumstance, and also contribute 3 minutes a game on the penalty kill, which he did twice. That's much better than what DD gave us on both offense and defense, and you know what? There was a general consensus in Habs fandom that while Plekanec as a number 1 center was good enough to make the playoffs, it wasn't good enough to be a true contender.

That was back in the day of high expectations in Habs land, now that we've regressed to a fandom that thinks 8th place is the one true ambition, we're happy with Desharnais and his 60 points even though we weren't happy with Plekanec and his 70 points a few years prior.

****************

Marc Savard, when healthy, had seasons of 97, 96, 78, and 88 points --- totally different from the 62 points of Desharnais. If Desharnais had produced 90 points we would have been a playoff team imo.
first full season.... obviously he will never do better.

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08-19-2012, 06:10 PM
  #230
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that's the issue IMO, I dont mind DD, he's ok...


but if we're to sacrifice a 60 pts player like Plekanec, it has to be for someone who can himself put a lot more than 60 or so points otherwise it's not even good enough to be qualified as a lateral move...

sacrifice a 20pts player for a 40pts player ? excellent
sacrifice a 20pts player for another 20pts player ? it's AT BEST a lateral move...

and that's what we see now, we sacrifice a 60 pts player (Plek) so another 60 pts player (DD) can take his spot... waste of time and effort IMO.
I think a lot of people forget that this was DD's 1st full season. His potential has yet to be realized. He could tap out as a 60 point player, but he could also go higher. At this point, we know what Plekanec is, which is a ~60 point player. We're not "sacrificing" one for the other. We're adding a ~60 point player (DD) to a ~60 point player (TP).

Since when did we "sacrifice" plekanec? He got 52 points with terrible linemates. That's not a far cry from 60 points. Once management provides the team with wingers for both DD and TP we won't be having this conversation. As it is, DD can do more with the wingers we have than TP.

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08-19-2012, 06:20 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't know if you remember the general dialogue in Montreal after Plekanec scored 70 points that season. We had just finished 1st in the conference and people were discussing how to be a true cup contender, not how to scramble for 8th place.

The discussion was about how the Montreal Canadiens are weak down the middle. Gainey tried to get Sundin but he didn't want to come. Gainey then got Robert Lang. Gainey thent tried to get Lecavalier but the asking price was not anchored in reality. There was a rumour about bringing in Sergei Zinovjev from Russia. Gainey finally pulled the trigger on the Gomez trade and declared victory.
Do you remember what was going on with the team after '07-'08? We finished 1st in the East. Plek had 70 points, Kovalev was coming off 84 and we tried to sign Sundin for what was to be a cup run for the centennial in '08-'09. Gomez only came into the picture after that dream failed a year later in the summer of '09, essentially to replace Koivu, who they let go to FA. Lang was a plan B for Sundin. Lecavalier was all rumours. Not sure what your point is.

Edit: The Gomez acquisition certainly was not declared victory by hab fans. We had no centers under contract for the upcoming year (Plekanec was RFA, Lang and Koivu were UFA). Trading for Gomez was more of a desperation move than going over the top for the cup as was the hope for Sundin a year earlier.


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08-19-2012, 07:40 PM
  #232
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The most important thing about me with DD is Montreal in the future. You have Plekanec, DD and Eller down the middle with Galchenyuk less than three seasons away from becoming a top six center, possibly a number one center in that time. On the left wing, you have Max Pacioretty and... uh... well, Bourque is a natural right winger who falls apart at left wing, same to Gionta, same to Cole... our highest left wing prospects are Hudon and Bozon who we both just drafted...

In other words, Desharnais would fill an incredible need on the team at left wing and mean we wouldn't have to scour the free agency to fill it. It has nothing to do with not believing in DD. He could definitely be a 60+ player throughout his career but he would fill a need for this team moving to the left wing. The right wing is set for like a decade with Cole, Gionta, Bourque, Leblanc, Gallagher, Collberg, etc. Center has Galchenyuk and Eller with Plekanec if he stayed after his contract. The left wing is where there is a need and DD would fill it.

DD is fine at center this season but when Galchenyuk is ready, they have to consider converting him.

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08-19-2012, 07:55 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Do you remember what was going on with the team after '07-'08? We finished 1st in the East. Plek had 70 points, Kovalev was coming off 84 and we tried to sign Sundin for what was to be a cup run for the centennial in '08-'09. Gomez only came into the picture after that dream failed a year later in the summer of '09, essentially to replace Koivu, who they let go to FA. Lang was a plan B for Sundin. Lecavalier was all rumours. Not sure what your point is.

Edit: The Gomez acquisition certainly was not declared victory by hab fans. We had no centers under contract for the upcoming year (Plekanec was RFA, Lang and Koivu were UFA). Trading for Gomez was more of a desperation move than going over the top for the cup as was the hope for Sundin a year earlier.
I failed to communicate my point, I'll try again.

Back when Habs fans had high standards, when they were discussing how to win stanley cups and not how to make 8th place, they were unhappy with Plekanec being a 70 point center who can also give you a few minutes a night on the PK. Now that our standards are low, that we think merely making the playoffs rather than winning in the playoffs it the holy grail, we are happy with a 60 point center.

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08-19-2012, 08:00 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
The most important thing about me with DD is Montreal in the future. You have Plekanec, DD and Eller down the middle with Galchenyuk less than three seasons away from becoming a top six center, possibly a number one center in that time. On the left wing, you have Max Pacioretty and... uh... well, Bourque is a natural right winger who falls apart at left wing, same to Gionta, same to Cole... our highest left wing prospects are Hudon and Bozon who we both just drafted...

In other words, Desharnais would fill an incredible need on the team at left wing and mean we wouldn't have to scour the free agency to fill it. It has nothing to do with not believing in DD. He could definitely be a 60+ player throughout his career but he would fill a need for this team moving to the left wing. The right wing is set for like a decade with Cole, Gionta, Bourque, Leblanc, Gallagher, Collberg, etc. Center has Galchenyuk and Eller with Plekanec if he stayed after his contract. The left wing is where there is a need and DD would fill it.

DD is fine at center this season but when Galchenyuk is ready, they have to consider converting him.
Excellent post.

I'm of the general view that Plekanec and Eller would be better support to Galchenyuk than DD and Eller.

With that said, it could be that we'd get better value out of converting DD to wing than by trading him.

Habs management have some difficult decisions to do moving forward: What to do with DD as he will soon no longer be our 1st line center?

*******

The situation is even more complex if we draft another blue chip center prospect next year :-)

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08-19-2012, 08:13 PM
  #235
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No, your post is the classic strawman.

Nobody is arguing that "one center must go". It's that we'll need to make room moving forward when Galchenyuk joins the team, when we'll have 4 top-9 centers not 3... "one center will probably need to go".

The three centers can stay up to the trade deadline.
How is his post a strawman?

You basically say ''No one is saying that a center must go but when Galchenyuk joins the team one center must probably go"

Nice of you to slip a "probably" in there but your intent is pretty clear. Why this is a ''Desharnais next contract'' thread and I see you saying how he's not good enough for our mighty team.

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16th in the NHL in the best of circumstance for points in the best of circumstance, with a low goals to assist ratio and no defensive aptitude... is not "very good".
As I said, he's a playmaking center. His two wingers played best when with him, and both scored over 30 goals. I'm sure they are glad to be on his line. Who cares about goals to assist ratio? Joe Thornton's ratio was terrible when he scored 114pts, I guess that was an ''average season''.

And "no defensive aptitude"? Either you don't watch the game or feel ok being dishonest trying to make a point but Desharnais is positionally sound and he works and backchecks tirelessly. Sure he won't shatter anyone with a bodycheck but he won't make stupid gaffes and will never be lazy on any play.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion
We constructed the team around Desharnais last year the way Vancouver constructs their team around Sedin. If Desharnais had produced ~90 points like Sedin, we would have been a clear playoff team. However, we constructed our team around a 60 point center, and thus we ended up out of the playoff picture by a wide margin.
Your argument is flawed to the point of ridicule. Change the name and you can apply that analysis of yours on any players on the team. You are looking for a black sheep and for some reason decided to target one of our best forwards.

''Hey Gorges! We don't need you, you can't produce offensively and in a few years Beaulieu and Tinordi are going to be no2-3. Besides, if you played like Zdeno Chara we would have made the playoffs."

The team would have sooner made the playoffs if we had some wingers to give to Plekanec btw.


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08-19-2012, 08:24 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
How is his post a strawman?

You basically say ''No one is saying that a center must go but when Galchenyuk joins the team one center must probably go"

Nice of you to slip a "probably" in there but your intent is pretty clear.
The other option is to convert one of them to wing, hence the "probably". It's a legitimate alternative to trading one of them -- I'm not sure why that offends you.

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Why this is a ''Desharnais next contract'' thread and I see you saying how he's not good enough for our mighty team.
It's valid to discuss Desharnais' status on the team in the next Desharnais contract thread.

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As I said, he's a playmaking center. His two wingers played best when with him, and both scored over 30 goals. I'm sure they are glad to be on his line. Who cares about goals to assist ratio? Joe Thornton's ratio was terrible when he scored 114pts, I guess that was an ''average season''.
Joe Thornton put up 114 points, he can have whatever goals to assists ratio.

If you're only putting up 62 points, you should be putting up points of a higher quality. There are 1.5 assists for every 1 goal, so assists are less valuable than goals. I'm surprised you don't know this.

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And "no defensive aptitude"? Either you don't watch the game or feel ok being dishonest trying to make a point but Desharnais is positionally sound and he works and backchecks tirelessly. Sure he won't shatter anyone with a bodycheck but he won't make stupid gaffes and will never be lazy on any play.
It's easier to appear in position against weaker opponents.

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08-19-2012, 08:36 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Your argument is flawed to the point of ridicule. Change the name and you can apply that analysis of yours on any players on the team. You are looking for a black sheep and for some reason decided to target one of our best forwards.

''Hey Gorges! We don't need you, you can't produce offensively and in a few years Beaulieu and Tinordi are going to be no2-3. Besides, if you played like Zdeno Chara we would have made the playoffs."
No, you cannot apply my arguments to Gorges.

-- Gorges doesn't get the easiest minutes on the Habs, he gets the hardest minutes, the exact opposite situation.
-- He does very well in this role. He's 25th in the league in +/- among defenseman, which is much better than 20th in the league for points among centers.
-- Desharnais gets a lot of PP time, we had the 3rd WORST PP in the league. Gorges gets a lot of PK time, we had the 2nd BEST PK in the league.
-- If Tinordi and Beaulieu both succeed we will still have nearly the same needs for Gorges. There is no competition between Beaulieu and Gorges as they are different players. Tinordi could pair with Gorges. In comparison, there will be competition between Desharnais and Galchenyuk.

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08-19-2012, 08:41 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The other option is to convert one of them to wing, hence the "probably". It's a legitimate alternative to trading one of them -- I'm not sure why that offends you.
Of course its a legitimate alternative but not the solution you are offering. Hence his post wasn't a strawman.

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Joe Thornton put up 114 points, he can have whatever goals to assists ratio.

If you're only putting up 62 points, you should be putting up points of a higher quality. There are 1.5 assists for every 1 goal, so assists are less valuable than goals. I'm surprised you don't know this.
And all these years I believed Saku Koivu was a better player than Michael Ryder!

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It's easier to appear in position against weaker opponents.
AHL quality players to be sure. I'm certain coaches always sent their 4th lines against Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole. They surely sent their best defensive units against Gomez and their best scoring forwards against Plekanec!

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08-19-2012, 08:48 PM
  #239
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No, you cannot apply my arguments to Gorges.

-- Gorges doesn't get the easiest minutes on the Habs, he gets the hardest minutes, the exact opposite situation.

Thats because he can't exploit the opposing team's weak units and score goals. What use in sending Gorges on the PP or vs the opposing 4th line? He can't shot nor pass if his life depended on it!

-- He does very well in this role. He's 25th in the league in +/- among defenseman, which is much better than 20th in the league for points among centers.

Its not. I refuse to believe Adam McQuaid (21th in +/-) is a better defensemen than Gorges

Oh and Desharnais is 25th in +/- amongst centers!

-- Desharnais gets a lot of PP time, we had the 3rd WORST PP in the league. Gorges gets a lot of PK time, we had the 2nd BEST PK in the league.

Are Pacioretty, Subban and Cole all useless as well? They get a lot of PP time and its a team game if I'm not mistaken.

-- If Tinordi and Beaulieu both succeed we will still have nearly the same needs for Gorges. There is no competition between Beaulieu and Gorges as they are different players. Tinordi could pair with Gorges. In comparison, there will be competition between Desharnais and Galchenyuk.

Galchenyuk will be first line center. Desharnais doesn't have to be one and as you said earlier centers can be moved to wing.
There you go.

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08-19-2012, 09:04 PM
  #240
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And all these years I believed Saku Koivu was a better player than Michael Ryder!
Let's look up their best year when they played together. Koivu had 22 goals and 53 assists. Ryder had 30 goals and 28 assists. If a goal is worth 1.5 assists like I estimated (you might argue 1.3 or 1.7), then Koivu still did better. However, they're then approximately equal in their other year together, 2006-2006, because Koivu missed some games due to injury. Koivu was the better player overall even if you account for the fact that goals are worth more than assists. He also contributed on the penalty kill.


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There you go.
Another way to think about it is that a team needs 6 defensemen but only 2 offensive centers.

I just don't see any likely scenario where Gorges is superfluous any time soon, so it's a false analogy. He's our 2nd or 3rd best dmen now, and we have 6 spots.

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08-19-2012, 09:20 PM
  #241
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Desharnais did not start his NHL career with Pacioretty and Cole. He produced with limited minutes and limited linemates.

If he hadn't been able to produce without the benefit of good linemates he never would have been given good linemates to begin with.

But DD is a french speaking local and a small center. Perfect combo magnet for irrational knocks and doubts.
Just want to be clear...I am a fan of Desharnais's style (crafty, nice to watch...I like how he holds on the puck an extra second or two to make that nice play...confidence/talent). I just wish he wasn't 5'6 (worried about him for playoffs...can his very small frame handle bruises and can he played well while injured in playoffs? many warriors play well while injured in playoffs). For the record...I'm always rooting for the small guy (Desharnais, St-Louis, Theo Fleury, Ennis, and more...), but...if we have the chance to get bigger, why not?

Or, if there is a way to keep all our centers...maybe that's the solution but I just don't see it happening (Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Eller, Leblanc as winger/center). My prediction: in a year or two...one center will go. Eller? Desharnais? Plekanec? Leblanc? (has more value to our Habs, no? I want him to stay a long time as a Hab). We don't know...maybe Eller is the one that will go? We will then have Pleks, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Leblanc.


I see this...Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Eller (and Leblanc as winger/center for center depth in case of injuries) as the three lines that can win it for us but I could be absolutely wrong! Tough decision to make in a year or two...give $4mil/year to Desharnais? (if he continues to perform well) or package him for a 1st Rnd Pick and a solid prospect or young NHL player? (could be risky unless Eller is the real deal).

And, maybe some here want:
Desharnais, Galchenyuk, Eller, Leblanc?


Big question in a year or two for our GM:
do you go with...Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Eller, Leblanc (winger/center)...
OR
Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Leblanc?

(I just hope it's not Plekanec that is traded unless a team offers so much we cannot refuse it!


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 08-19-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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08-19-2012, 09:59 PM
  #242
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I failed to communicate my point, I'll try again.

Back when Habs fans had high standards, when they were discussing how to win stanley cups and not how to make 8th place, they were unhappy with Plekanec being a 70 point center who can also give you a few minutes a night on the PK. Now that our standards are low, that we think merely making the playoffs rather than winning in the playoffs it the holy grail, we are happy with a 60 point center.
What team wouldn't be happy if an expected career AHL'er breaks through and puts up 60 points in the NHL?

By the way, we're not winning the Stanley Cup this year.

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08-19-2012, 10:10 PM
  #243
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What team wouldn't be happy if an expected career AHL'er breaks through and puts up 60 points in the NHL?

By the way, we're not winning the Stanley Cup this year.
That, and only 3 of the top10 NHL teams had a center with 70points or more. Half of them didn't have a center with 60 points or more.

Seems to me like this entire argument that Desharnais is ''not good enough'' is made out of thin air.

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08-19-2012, 11:00 PM
  #244
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What team wouldn't be happy if an expected career AHL'er breaks through and puts up 60 points in the NHL?
It depends on the role.

If a defenseman or 2nd liner does that, you'd be ecstatic. If it's your 1st line center who gets 1st line linemates, PP opportunities, Ozone starts, privileged minutes, etc, then your value over replacement is much lower.

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By the way, we're not winning the Stanley Cup this year.
Which is why I'm entirely focused on the long-term. I see this season as a means to an end, nothing more.


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That, and only 3 of the top10 NHL teams had a center with 70points or more. Half of them didn't have a center with 60 points or more.

5 best teams in the Eastern Conference by point totals:
Brad Richards had 66 points, and 25 of those were goals.
Tyler Seguin had 67 points, and 29 of those were goals.
Evgeni Malkin had 109 points.
Claude Giroux had 93 points.
Travis Zajac missed 67 games due to injury and then contributed in the playoffs, but he is not a 70 point center when healthy.

5 best teams in the Western Conference by point totals:
Henrik Sedin had 81 points.
The St-Louis Blues didn't have a center as offensively productive as Desharnais.
The Nashville Predators didn't have a center as offensively productive as Desharnais.
Pavel Datsyuk had 67 points, but he missed 12 games due to injury.
Jonathan Toews had 57 points and 29 goals, but he missed 22 games due to injury.

So basically out of 10 teams, at least 7 of them have 1st line centers that are offensively superior to Desharnais (Richards, Seguin, Malkin, Giroux, Sedin, Toews). Datsyuk and Toews only fell short of 70 points due to injuries. Seguin and Richards had 67 and 66 points, which you might naively think is very close to Desharnais' 62 points, but actually is much better due to a higher goals to assists ratio.

St-Louis, New Jersey, and Nashville didn't need a true 1st line center due to superior depth. That's 3 teams out of 10 that support your argument.

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08-19-2012, 11:14 PM
  #245
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DD, while inconsistent at first, eventually started to play great in his full first season. He was just about at a ppg pace for half the season, from mid-December to mid-March, and that's with a 27th ranked PP. Had we re-signed the Wiz or Markov been healthy, Desharnais would have finished with around 70pts, killing the arguments of every detractor in this thread.

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08-19-2012, 11:42 PM
  #246
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It's a shame that people don't seem to realize that Desharnais wasn't given the two best player of the team. They both were slumping under a different center than him and that's why he got them.

Plekanec is more of a loner... Or a follower but he never made his winger better like Desharnais or Koivu did.

If Kovy was good then he produced. If Cammy was good then he produced abd the same thing with Gionta.

At the end of the season Plekanec played with Leblanc and Cammalleri and the line really wasn't good. When DD played with the same player they produced.

Some of you were so sure he would fail that you were just rooting against Desharnais and have never what he accomplished in his first full season.

And the when he did all that and established himself as our better center. People were searching for excuses.

Imagine Eller with these line mates.

They have all the good chances.

Plekanec is so much better two year ago he had a 39 point season... Oops sorry didn't want to bring that up. He was great with Cammalleri the year after that.

Now let's compare Plekanec and Desharnais's first full season.

Don't need to do that Desharnais had like 20 more points than Plekanec.

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08-20-2012, 01:18 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I think a lot of people forget that this was DD's 1st full season. His potential has yet to be realized. He could tap out as a 60 point player, but he could also go higher. At this point, we know what Plekanec is, which is a ~60 point player. We're not "sacrificing" one for the other. We're adding a ~60 point player (DD) to a ~60 point player (TP).

Since when did we "sacrifice" plekanec? He got 52 points with terrible linemates. That's not a far cry from 60 points. Once management provides the team with wingers for both DD and TP we won't be having this conversation. As it is, DD can do more with the wingers we have than TP.
DD isnt a 18 years old kid you know, he's pretty much in his prime right now...

that's when and how we sacrificed Plekanec...


would love to see Plekanec with the both of them for 60+ games, lots of you would change your mind, pretty sure of that...

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08-20-2012, 01:28 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
It's a shame that people don't seem to realize that Desharnais wasn't given the two best player of the team. They both were slumping under a different center than him and that's why he got them.

Plekanec is more of a loner... Or a follower but he never made his winger better like Desharnais or Koivu did.

If Kovy was good then he produced. If Cammy was good then he produced abd the same thing with Gionta.

At the end of the season Plekanec played with Leblanc and Cammalleri and the line really wasn't good. When DD played with the same player they produced.

Some of you were so sure he would fail that you were just rooting against Desharnais and have never what he accomplished in his first full season.

And the when he did all that and established himself as our better center. People were searching for excuses.

Imagine Eller with these line mates.

They have all the good chances.

Plekanec is so much better two year ago he had a 39 point season... Oops sorry didn't want to bring that up. He was great with Cammalleri the year after that.

Now let's compare Plekanec and Desharnais's first full season.

Don't need to do that Desharnais had like 20 more points than Plekanec.
wrong, it's when Cammy was put with Plekanec that he started producing in his first season with us...

and after a dozen or so game the second season he was a Habs, slumping Gionta was put on Plekanec line... guess what happened to said slump?




Plekanek first full season : 23 years old
DD first full season : 25 years old

at the age DD had its first full season (25 yo), Plekanec was having a 69 pts season...

so, using your own logic, DD is what, a 4th line C, maybe 3rd ?

but we get the point, Plekanec sucks and DD is a god!

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08-20-2012, 01:36 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
5 best teams in the Eastern Conference by point totals:
Brad Richards had 66 points, and 25 of those were goals.
Tyler Seguin had 67 points, and 29 of those were goals.
Evgeni Malkin had 109 points.
Claude Giroux had 93 points.
Travis Zajac missed 67 games due to injury and then contributed in the playoffs, but he is not a 70 point center when healthy.

5 best teams in the Western Conference by point totals:
Henrik Sedin had 81 points.
The St-Louis Blues didn't have a center as offensively productive as Desharnais.
The Nashville Predators didn't have a center as offensively productive as Desharnais.
Pavel Datsyuk had 67 points, but he missed 12 games due to injury.
Jonathan Toews had 57 points and 29 goals, but he missed 22 games due to injury.

So basically out of 10 teams, at least 7 of them have 1st line centers that are offensively superior to Desharnais (Richards, Seguin, Malkin, Giroux, Sedin, Toews). Datsyuk and Toews only fell short of 70 points due to injuries. Seguin and Richards had 67 and 66 points, which you might naively think is very close to Desharnais' 62 points, but actually is much better due to a higher goals to assists ratio.

St-Louis, New Jersey, and Nashville didn't need a true 1st line center due to superior depth. That's 3 teams out of 10 that support your argument.
What teams with better centers than Desharnais that did worse than the Habs? Or is it not obvious yet that having a PPG no1 center with a good goal to assist ratio is only one piece in having a winning team?

The one thing that worked well on the team and its the first line and the three players that made it. Desharnais has always worked well no matter who he played with, yet Pacioretty struggled at times and established himself as a solid producer and goal scorer once he got to play with Desharnais. Cole struggled with Plekanec but played better with Desharnais than he ever did with Eric Staal. Cammalleri only looked good last year on the few occasions he played with Desharnais. Two years ago Desharnais played at 0.5ppg pace with minimal ice time and Mathieu Darche. Desharnais is one of the last pieces we'd ever need to replace if we want to get better. When you buy an used car you don't start by replacing the pieces that are functioning well and were recently replaced.

Your arguments relies solely on the statistics that show he was sheltered compared to Plekanec yet what does that prove or show? How can we know the real impact of this sheltering on his stats? I don't see anyone claiming Pacioretty and Cole are flukes either, yet they shared the same ice time with Desharnais.

Furthermore in all this you fail to account that Desharnais is still young and keeps progressing, talking as if he plateaued. Last year his detractors would claim he was a liability that should go back to the AHL, that he wouldn't keep up in the NHL, that he was lucky and didn't deserve PP ice time over Gomez even. People would point out his inability to win faceoffs as part of his ''defensive inaptitude". The next year, his first complete season, he improved his faceoffs to nearly the same level as Plekanec, centered our best line and was top3 in points on the team with the third best +/- rating. Other than Pacioretty no other player in this team or system has grown as much as Desharnais in that lapse of time.

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08-20-2012, 02:42 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
What teams with better centers than Desharnais that did worse than the Habs? Or is it not obvious yet that having a PPG no1 center with a good goal to assist ratio is only one piece in having a winning team?

The one thing that worked well on the team and its the first line and the three players that made it. Desharnais has always worked well no matter who he played with, yet Pacioretty struggled at times and established himself as a solid producer and goal scorer once he got to play with Desharnais. Cole struggled with Plekanec but played better with Desharnais than he ever did with Eric Staal. Cammalleri only looked good last year on the few occasions he played with Desharnais. Two years ago Desharnais played at 0.5ppg pace with minimal ice time and Mathieu Darche. Desharnais is one of the last pieces we'd ever need to replace if we want to get better. When you buy an used car you don't start by replacing the pieces that are functioning well and were recently replaced.

Your arguments relies solely on the statistics that show he was sheltered compared to Plekanec yet what does that prove or show? How can we know the real impact of this sheltering on his stats? I don't see anyone claiming Pacioretty and Cole are flukes either, yet they shared the same ice time with Desharnais.

Furthermore in all this you fail to account that Desharnais is still young and keeps progressing, talking as if he plateaued. Last year his detractors would claim he was a liability that should go back to the AHL, that he wouldn't keep up in the NHL, that he was lucky and didn't deserve PP ice time over Gomez even. People would point out his inability to win faceoffs as part of his ''defensive inaptitude". The next year, his first complete season, he improved his faceoffs to nearly the same level as Plekanec, centered our best line and was top3 in points on the team with the third best +/- rating. Other than Pacioretty no other player in this team or system has grown as much as Desharnais in that lapse of time.
he'll be 26 when season starts, yes he's young, but it's not like he has that many years to improve or anything...

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