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Not to mention Subban hasnt even stratched the surface on how good hes going to be in the future. Ryan has shown us hes a 65 pt player with VERY good linemates.
Ryan doesn't play with Getzlaf and Perry as much as you think he also doesn't get much PP time. Bobby Ryan has had a 71 point season and has scored 30 goals 4 times. To think the Bobby Ryan couldn't still have a 40 goal season and close to a PPG season at his young age is wrong.
Subban is 23 and Ryan is 25. Personally I would take Ryan over Subban as he has proven he can use his potential and still has room to grow. Subban while good has not yet played at as high of a level as Ryan has. They Both have room to get better.
Pretty easily Ryan. I would take him without thinking twice.
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Although PK Subban has a lot of potential, Bobby Ryan clearly has more value. Ryan has had 4 straight seasons of 30+ goals and Subban is only in his 3rd year in the league.
Oh snap, where'd all this come from? Never heard of any of this before
In any event, Ryan is the guy to take and NHL 12 even thinks so during a fantasy draft
When/if PK establishes himself in a season or two for a lock in the Olympics, this may change depending on Ryan's performance
Ryan doesn't play with Getzlaf and Perry as much as you think he also doesn't get much PP time. Bobby Ryan has had a 71 point season and has scored 30 goals 4 times. To think the Bobby Ryan couldn't still have a 40 goal season and close to a PPG season at his young age is wrong.
Subban is 23 and Ryan is 25. Personally I would take Ryan over Subban as he has proven he can use his potential and still has room to grow. Subban while good has not yet played at as high of a level as Ryan has. They Both have room to get better.
While I believe the value is close, I will disagree that Subban has not played at as high a level. Subban has been playing the #1 d-man position for both of his NHL seasons, and is one of only 15 defencemen in the entire league to score 30+ points, play 23+ minutes, deliver 100+ hits, make 100+ blocked shots, and play against opposing teams' top lines in all situations. He also did all of that without the benefit of equivalent defensive stars on par with Perry and Getzlaf to help him. Believe me, Subban IS playing at as high, if not higher, a level as Ryan. They both definitely have the potential to grow. While I would not trade Subban for Ryan, I would not shoot Bergevin if he did make that trade. I prefer Subban, but I would love to see Ryan in our top 6.
pk subban has 4 controllable years at ?
bobby ryan has 3 controllable years at 5.1M (slightly higher salary: 5.56M)
in terms of positional value, pk is a 1st pairing dman, ryan is a 1st line winger.
Offensively speaking, ryan (if he follows historical trends) has reached his peak, and will now begin (or has begun) a decline, though no-one can know if it is a slow decline or a quick one. Offensively speaking, again, PK subban is a couple of years from his peak.
In terms of defensive value, a very subjective metric, i'd say that ryan is defensively to the average 1st line winger similar to what subban is defensively to the average first-pairing dman.
Looking at market considerations, both are stars to their respective fanbases. Ryan may have damaged his value slightly through his recent public comments, but he's still a valuable face to sell tickets.
which brings us to the final question: what is worth more? A first line winger or a first pairing dman?
Looking at everything, though traditional logic might lead one to say that Ryan, a young 30-35 goal scoring forward with a 70pt season under his belt is more valuable, I probably would argue that PK is in fact worth more.
That said, it looks like Ryan has reached his peak as a 35G / 70P winger. No one knows what Subban's upside is. I personally think he can challenge for the Norris in his career.
That said, it looks like Ryan has reached his peak as a 35G / 70P winger. No one knows what Subban's upside is. I personally think he can challenge for the Norris in his career.
It seems a bit odd to say Ryan has reached his peak, when he isn't getting 1st unit PP time. That alone suggests his numbers can improve a fair amount.
Ryan has had 4 consecutive 30-goal seasons. The only season he didn't score 30 goals was his rookie season in which he played only 23 games. I like Subban better but admittedly in terms of trade value Ryan has him beat.
pk subban has 4 controllable years at ?
bobby ryan has 3 controllable years at 5.1M (slightly higher salary: 5.56M)
in terms of positional value, pk is a 1st pairing dman, ryan is a 1st line winger.
Offensively speaking, ryan (if he follows historical trends) has reached his peak, and will now begin (or has begun) a decline, though no-one can know if it is a slow decline or a quick one. Offensively speaking, again, PK subban is a couple of years from his peak.
In terms of defensive value, a very subjective metric, i'd say that ryan is defensively to the average 1st line winger similar to what subban is defensively to the average first-pairing dman.
Looking at market considerations, both are stars to their respective fanbases. Ryan may have damaged his value slightly through his recent public comments, but he's still a valuable face to sell tickets.
which brings us to the final question: what is worth more? A first line winger or a first pairing dman?
Looking at everything, though traditional logic might lead one to say that Ryan, a young 30-35 goal scoring forward with a 70pt season under his belt is more valuable, I probably would argue that PK is in fact worth more.
I'm gonna tell you that Karlsson is going to decline in offensive production in 3 years just to see your reaction.
Anywho, snide remarks turned off for a moment, historically, 1st pairing defensemen are more valued than 1st line wingers but Ryan has the edge for the time being
I'm gonna tell you that Karlsson is going to decline in offensive production in 3 years just to see your reaction.
Anywho, snide remarks turned off for a moment, historically, 1st pairing defensemen are more valued than 1st line wingers but Ryan has the edge for the time being
speaking in general terms, you'd probably be right. Of course any individual, be it ryan or karlsson, could end up peaking offensively at a later age, but historically speaking, 22-26yo is when players peak offensively (and when you look at top offensive players only, 23 seems to be the peak).
speaking in general terms, you'd probably be right. Of course any individual, be it ryan or karlsson, could end up peaking offensively at a later age, but historically speaking, 22-26yo is when players peak offensively (and when you look at top offensive players only, 23 seems to be the peak).
if I were you, i wouldnt wait a few years though. Why not tell me how Spezza has reached his peak and get that anger off your chest.
Yeah, saw that thread
The problem with the stats is players in dead puck era vs the "free and open" style that is in now and the ages of those tested do not include mid 30 age players in todays game.
Conditioning is a huge difference for a player born in '62 and a player born in '79
The age 38 jump was my favourite part
take into account that an average NHL player career is 6 years long and you end up with a sample size that can be skewed in one of your posts due to playing ability
It's neat to look at and all but I've never been a fan of players declining at 25 in skill or production. There are way too many factors off of the ice and in regards to linemates that effect results and sampling players in age groups focuses on numbers only without taking causes into effect.
I could come up with graphs that say that the "free style" since the lockout has impeded players over the age of 25 from winning the Art Ross Trophy as anyone under that age rarely did prior to the lockout and that the Sedins and Thronton were the only ones over 25 to win it since the lockout but that doesn't make my argument true nor call other stats fabricated
*sigh*
Even global mods have been afflicted with the HF Virus and instantly assume what isn't written
Snide does not equal angry, check the dictionary if you do not believe me, sir
Where did you get the part about me being angry from may I ask?
