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Does Bobby Ryan's value = PK Subban's value ?

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Old
08-19-2012, 09:27 PM
  #51
Kreider Typical
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yes, but only because of position. skillwise ryan is >

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Old
08-19-2012, 10:27 PM
  #52
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Is there a point to this?

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08-19-2012, 10:28 PM
  #53
Captain Smurf
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Is this relevant in any way? Montreal wont move Subban for Ryan and vice versa.

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08-19-2012, 10:42 PM
  #54
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I'd tend to say Subban, but that's because I think a team need's intangibles and the ''winner attitude''.. And Subban has it all.. But it's not big gap.

If P.K. can regain his slapshot on the PP u'll see him rise above alot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Ryan by a fair margin for me. Big power forwards with hands like that are tougher to find than a Dman of Subban's ilk.
Find more than 5 defenseman comparable to Subban now ?

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:29 AM
  #55
dan1el
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Ryan by a pretty big margin IMO, not a PK fan and Ryan has scored 30 four times, not to mention has good size and can dangle with the best of them. I think Anaheim would be better off packaging Ryan and getting a solid 2C+ then going for Subban.

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08-20-2012, 01:39 AM
  #56
Sean Garrity
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How can anyone think either have reached their peak is hilarious. Ryan would've been a 40 goal scorer the past 4 seasons if some old dude was not taking all his PP time. As for PK, he is already a damn good defenseman, once he learns to stop pulling himself out of position so often and to stop taking penalties he is going to be one hell of a #1 dman.

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08-20-2012, 02:28 AM
  #57
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Another way to look at it:

If you had the choice to get Subban or Ryan without giving any asset, and considering their age/contract.

Which player do you get for your team?

One thing for sure: Subban is way more cute!

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08-20-2012, 02:31 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
It's a difficult question to answer. There's a lot of factors that end up in value. There's also 30 different values for every player - one specific one to each team, but I assume this is about the average value of a player.

I think it's Ryan by a bit. Not a lot, but not quite negligible. In terms of draft picks, I'd put it at a 2nd. One thing that makes the comparision particularly difficult is the different contract situations. It's pretty clear cut for Ryan - three more years until UFA. Well, as "clear cut" as things can be without a CBA to go forward with, and thus fogging the future UFA-age a bit. Subban doesn't have a contract, yet, but obviously is bound to his club for longer, but a contract would help. I'm not sure if these things really constitute a big plus for either, though.
Nah, really?

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08-20-2012, 02:36 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
It's a difficult question to answer. There's a lot of factors that end up in value. There's also 30 different values for every player - one specific one to each team, but I assume this is about the average value of a player.

I think it's Ryan by a bit. Not a lot, but not quite negligible. In terms of draft picks, I'd put it at a 2nd. One thing that makes the comparision particularly difficult is the different contract situations. It's pretty clear cut for Ryan - three more years until UFA. Well, as "clear cut" as things can be without a CBA to go forward with, and thus fogging the future UFA-age a bit. Subban doesn't have a contract, yet, but obviously is bound to his club for longer, but a contract would help. I'm not sure if these things really constitute a big plus for either, though.
I think you get it all wrong.

Each player have two values that matter: The asking price from their team. And the best bidding offer around the league for the player. The inferior bid from other teams doesn't really matter unless a player have a NTC, a team will (almost) always trade a player for the best offer.

I really dont see any utility to find out the average value, no team would trade a player at his average value around the league instead of taking the best offer for him.

If you sell something on Ebay, how much the average bid matter? Only 2 price matter, the best bid and the reserve price.

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Old
08-20-2012, 03:21 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by duxfan8 View Post
I don't think PK is worth Bobby... at least yet. They probably have comparable potential, but Bobby has proven much more to this point. Given, he has a year or two on PK, but still. This will be in interesting question in a year or so.
what i was thinking

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Old
08-20-2012, 03:40 AM
  #61
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I'd easily take Ryan.

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08-20-2012, 04:58 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
Agreed. Value is close but Subban has more upside at this point whereas Ryan pretty much is what he is.

Whether or not you discount for PK's off-ice stuff, fighting with teammates in practice etc. could skew it.
Except the fact that when he gets 1st line PP time he will easily get atleast 5 more goals and 5 more assists per year. More likely 10-10 making him an 80-85 point player and 40+ goals.

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08-20-2012, 07:10 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Ryan doesn't play with Getzlaf and Perry as much as you think he also doesn't get much PP time. Bobby Ryan has had a 71 point season and has scored 30 goals 4 times. To think the Bobby Ryan couldn't still have a 40 goal season and close to a PPG season at his young age is wrong.

Subban is 23 and Ryan is 25. Personally I would take Ryan over Subban as he has proven he can use his potential and still has room to grow. Subban while good has not yet played at as high of a level as Ryan has. They Both have room to get better.
Just what the heck are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
In terms of defensive value, a very subjective metric, i'd say that ryan is defensively to the average 1st line winger similar to what subban is defensively to the average first-pairing dman.
You have NO idea how good Subban is defensively do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Ryan by a fair margin for me. Big power forwards with hands like that are tougher to find than a Dman of Subban's ilk.
An other who doesn't know what he's talking about. Read Drydenwasthebest's post then hang your head in shame.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 08-20-2012 at 07:16 AM.
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Old
08-20-2012, 07:22 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswrjobe53 View Post
to me:

Ryan > Subban
Agree. IMO Ryan's value is much > Subban's.

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Old
08-20-2012, 08:16 AM
  #65
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It's so hard to guage "value" when Subban is up for a contract now. I also don't think there is much difference age-wise. Both guys are young and will contribute for years to come.

If I am starting a team and I can pick one of them, I take Subban rather quickly. I just think he's more dynamic and has shown flashes of being a #1. Fantastic skater, wicked shot, annoying as hell, better defender than he is ususally given credit for.

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08-20-2012, 08:26 AM
  #66
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Ryan > Subban.

Not close.

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08-20-2012, 08:43 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
It's so hard to guage "value" when Subban is up for a contract now. I also don't think there is much difference age-wise. Both guys are young and will contribute for years to come.

If I am starting a team and I can pick one of them, I take Subban rather quickly. I just think he's more dynamic and has shown flashes of being a #1. Fantastic skater, wicked shot, annoying as hell, better defender than he is ususally given credit for.
Subban is an incredible defenseman in his own zone.

His defensive problem come when he take too much risk in the offensive zone.

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08-20-2012, 08:43 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
I think you get it all wrong.

Each player have two values that matter: (...)
I didn't say that every valuation of the 30 teams matter, I only say those exist, and hold some meaning to an attempt to objectively put one value on a player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
The asking price from their team. And the best bidding offer around the league for the player. (...)

I really dont see any utility to find out the average value, no team would trade a player at his average value around the league instead of taking the best offer for him.

If you sell something on Ebay, how much the average bid matter? Only 2 price matter, the best bid and the reserve price.
I understand what you're saying, but you're describing a different value, IMO. I'd refer to what you're describing as the trade value, in the narrow sense. In reality, it's obviously the one that ultimately "matters" more, as you put it, and I agree with that. After all, it's those two subjective evaluations matching up that are required for a trade to happen.

That said, those two single valuations aren't really suited to reflect an objective valuation (which seemed to be the goal here), as circumstances for two single teams can lead to quite divergent valuations on certain pieces. Those deviations aren't exactly easy to pinpoint, even for insiders. Not that it's entirely easy (or realistically feasible) to put exact valuations for a player from 30 teams in absolute terms, but still, I think that concept holds more meaning to an objective valuation. In the end, as I said, you're right, those are the subjective two valuations that need to match up, so in actual trades, it's the one you'd have to expect to see reflected.

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08-20-2012, 08:51 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
I didn't say that every valuation of the 30 teams matter, I only say those exist, and hold some meaning to an attempt to objectively put one value on a player.


I understand what you're saying, but you're describing a different value, IMO. I'd refer to what you're describing as the trade value, in the narrow sense. In reality, it's obviously the one that ultimately "matters" more, as you put it, and I agree with that. After all, it's those two subjective evaluations matching up that are required for a trade to happen.

That said, those two single valuations aren't really suited to reflect an objective valuation (which seemed to be the goal here), as circumstances for two single teams can lead to quite divergent valuations on certain pieces. Those deviations aren't exactly easy to pinpoint, even for insiders. Not that it's entirely easy (or realistically feasible) to put exact valuations for a player from 30 teams in absolute terms, but still, I think that concept holds more meaning to an objective valuation. In the end, as I said, you're right, those are the subjective two valuations that need to match up, so in actual trades, it's the one you'd have to expect to see reflected.
If you take a goalie like Luongo, and you try to find his average value... since most team already have a good goalie already. His "average' value should be close to zero ?

I think when we are trying to find the "value of" a player its not about that, but his trade value. Trying to close the gap between the asking price and best bid.

Sometime i think we should have a sticky, some kind of "theory of trade value" to serve as guideline and avoid lot of confusion on this forum.

For example, one mistake i see in this thread is the: "Ryan is more Proven" argument talking about his 30 goals seasons. But when acquiring a new player, we dont really care about his past, we acquire a player for what we expect from him in the future. I would rather acquire Ryan before he had his 30 goal season than after, so my team can benefit from having him for these season.

Of course its more likely to expect 30 goals in the next few seasons from someone who already achieved it in the past. But the past is not the only way and not an absolute way to find expectation for a player. The real question is do we expect Subban to be a more important player in the future than Ryan ? Past accomplishment is just one variable to find the answer.


Last edited by palindrom: 08-20-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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Old
08-20-2012, 08:59 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Bobby Ryan is a proven scorer PK Subban has proven nothing..

you mean except being a good #1 or very good #2 d-man at 23 years old??


Personally I would say that right now they are close. If PK puts in another good year this season, I would lean to PK.

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08-20-2012, 09:08 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
you mean except being a good #1 or very good #2 d-man at 23 years old??


Personally I would say that right now they are close. If PK puts in another good year this season, I would lean to PK.
I love Subban and think he will be a legit #1....but there is no way he is a #1 right now. Not even close.

When I say #1 I am talking top 10 defender in the NHL that is there for ever situation. Not the best defender on your team.

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08-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
I love Subban and think he will be a legit #1....but there is no way he is a #1 right now. Not even close.

When I say #1 I am talking top 10 defender in the NHL that is there for ever situation. Not the best defender on your team.
That's not what a #1 defenseman is.

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08-20-2012, 10:35 AM
  #73
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Gonna go with Ryan>Subban but it's very close.

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08-20-2012, 10:42 AM
  #74
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I don't think there is a more overrated defensive player than Subban (merely talking about his defense, here). He's solid defensively, but he's nothing spectacular. ****, the Rangers have four guys alone better than him on the defensive side (Staal, McDonagh, Girardi and Sauer). I like the guy's game quite a bit and I think he gets **** on a lot on this board for being a Canadien, but let's not sit there and make him out to be something amazing defensively.

I think his skating actually makes up for a lot of his defensive mistakes since he can get in position quite a bit quicker than most.

I don't think he's bad at all defensively. I think he's actually quite good. Just not great as some like to think.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:54 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I don't think there is a more overrated defensive player than Subban (merely talking about his defense, here). He's solid defensively, but he's nothing spectacular. ****, the Rangers have four guys alone better than him on the defensive side (Staal, McDonagh, Girardi and Sauer). I like the guy's game quite a bit and I think he gets **** on a lot on this board for being a Canadien, but let's not sit there and make him out to be something amazing defensively.

I think his skating actually makes up for a lot of his defensive mistakes since he can get in position quite a bit quicker than most.

I don't think he's bad at all defensively. I think he's actually quite good. Just not great as some like to think.

Seriously, watch P.K. more often...

He's (I'd say) the best 1 on 1 dman in the league, and all that talk about him being a defensive liability with his bad decision ??!?!? WHERE IN THE HECK DID YOU SEE THAT ???

P.K. has two flaws:
1. He need's to get his shot back, he was taking bad slapper all nights.. This was one of his strenght in his rookie season... He'll get it back with a healthy Markov.
2. Off ice. (Not that it's a big deal.. But it would still be cool if he got his act together..)

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