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Paging Captain Bob - Nashville signs Hannan for $1 MM :)

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Old
08-18-2012, 11:21 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
We have like a trillion dollars in cap space. I don't think any of our current contracts are making it hard to sign anyone. We could fit Crosby and Malkin under the current cap and not cut anyone.
That's because Holland isn't paying the market prices.

But what if he had an extra $10M because we didn't sign Sammy, Bertuzzi, and Quincey, for example.

What if he made the choice to make a REAL offer to OVERPAY Suter and Parise instead of overpaying 3rd and 4th liners and 3rd pairing defensemen


This is the fundamental principle I am talking about.

You overpay elite talent if you have to. You underpay dime-a-dozen plug ins.

Holland has got it ass backwards. He's underpaying his Elite players and overpaying the bums..... Why???
Why is Jon Ericsson worth 80 percent of Johan Franzen, the guy so valuable valuable we chose him over Hossa?

Why is Kyle Quincey, a healthy scratch on one of the worst defenses in the league, worth 80 percent of Niklas Kronwall, a guy we're counting on to be our $1.

Holland's decisions about where he's spending his money are costing us.

Every since the Dan Cleary contract, he's been overspending on tweeners and trying to get bargains on our stars.

The result is, we're not getting any stars.

Our team is slipping because of it.

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08-18-2012, 11:25 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Agreed. Everyone knew Stuart was leaving this offseason so the Ericsson signing was even more necessary. Going with kids and journeymen for the #6 and #7 spot is great, but when you're creeping up into the #4 and #5 you want more stability.
Why?
If we had Hannan instead of Ericsson, we'd just keep Hannan for the $1.5M he might have cost us.
What's the difference?

Your point doesn't make sense.

Hannan isn't an all star, but he's still a good PK guy who can handle your tough minutes.

Maybe people are overrating Ericsson.

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08-18-2012, 11:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Why?
If we had Hannan instead of Ericsson, we'd just keep Hannan for the $1.5M he might have cost us.
What's the difference?

Your point doesn't make sense.

Hannan isn't an all star, but he's still a good PK guy who can handle your tough minutes.

Maybe people are overrating Ericsson.
You're really underrating Ericsson -- Hannan has zero ability to play up the roster, he's a #6 or #7 and nothing more. Ericsson has abilities to play top 4 pairing minutes and has shown ability in the past to play against top competition.

Hannan would be fine to play that defensive defensemen role you're wanting, but Ericsson fills the role that we're going to be missing with a #3 or #4 guy. It's two completely different roles and one that Hannan can't handle.

tl;dr Ericsson >>>>>>> Hannan


Last edited by Heaton: 08-18-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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08-18-2012, 11:30 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
That's because Holland isn't paying the market prices.

But what if he had an extra $10M because we didn't sign Sammy, Bertuzzi, and Quincey, for example.

What if he made the choice to make a REAL offer to OVERPAY Suter and Parise instead of overpaying 3rd and 4th liners and 3rd pairing defensemen
He had the choice this offseason but as we've seen even with an extra 10m in cap space his idea of what Suter or Parise should make still wouldn't be what they eventually got.

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08-18-2012, 12:34 PM
  #30
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Well in CB's defense Hannan did play a much stronger level of competition whether you go with Relative Corsi or straight Corsi. However, he was pretty clearly over his head trying to play top 4 pairing minutes as evidenced by his near-league worst for D Corsi is -12.53 (only Schultz, Eaton, and Scandella had worse for D with 60 games). And it's not like he was starting the vast majority of his shifts in his own zone either, only a 48.7% offensive zone start which is about average.

Valuable as a #6 guy who will PK, but I don't think he can handle any tough minutes at ES any longer without seriously hurting your own team. He's a bottom pairing specialist at this point and if we'd let Ericsson walk and expected Hannan to fill in a top 4 role this season for us it would have been pretty awful.

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08-18-2012, 12:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I highly doubt we see Hannan and Gill on the ice together, especially against Datsyuk, unless it's the PK. Hannan will be in Nashville to create competition among the younger blueliners, and as a stop gap is one or more of the Josi, Blum, Ellis, and Ekholm look out of place at any time during the season. If Hannan ends up playing I'd bet it's with Klein, and Klein is probably the most mobile defenseman in Nashville (the guy can move).
I know man, I just couldn't resist.

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08-18-2012, 12:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
You're really underrating Ericsson -- Hannan has zero ability to play up the roster, he's a #6 or #7 and nothing more. Ericsson has abilities to play top 4 pairing minutes and has shown ability in the past to play against top competition.

Hannan would be fine to play that defensive defensemen role you're wanting, but Ericsson fills the role that we're going to be missing with a #3 or #4 guy. It's two completely different roles and one that Hannan can't handle.

tl;dr Ericsson >>>>>>> Hannan
That's ridiculous.

One guy plays 20 minutes a night and he's a 6-7 defenseman and nothing more
One guy comes in at 17 minutes a night and he's a 3-4 guy?

Where does that come from?

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08-18-2012, 12:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Well in CB's defense Hannan did play a much stronger level of competition whether you go with Relative Corsi or straight Corsi. However, he was pretty clearly over his head trying to play top 4 pairing minutes as evidenced by his near-league worst for D Corsi is -12.53 (only Schultz, Eaton, and Scandella had worse for D with 60 games). And it's not like he was starting the vast majority of his shifts in his own zone either, only a 48.7% offensive zone start which is about average.

Valuable as a #6 guy who will PK, but I don't think he can handle any tough minutes at ES any longer without seriously hurting your own team. He's a bottom pairing specialist at this point and if we'd let Ericsson walk and expected Hannan to fill in a top 4 role this season for us it would have been pretty awful.
Scott Hannan, on a team with competent defensive centers in a system that plays solid team defense, will be an excellent, third pairing left defenseman who can play in every defensive situation and on the PK.

If people expect more than that of Ericsson for some reason.... I guess I'd like to know why.

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08-18-2012, 01:01 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
He had the choice this offseason but as we've seen even with an extra 10m in cap space his idea of what Suter or Parise should make still wouldn't be what they eventually got.
That's because he's got his thinking wrong.

He's spending $3M on fringe players like Samuelsson who can be replaced by $800,000 players.

He went out and spent a first rounder and then almost $4M on a guy like Quincey who isn't markedly better than Kindl at his minimal price.

And yet he wants to get deals on Parise and Hossa and Zetterberg and Franzen.

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08-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
That's ridiculous.

One guy plays 20 minutes a night and he's a 6-7 defenseman and nothing more
One guy comes in at 17 minutes a night and he's a 3-4 guy?

Where does that come from?
Unless they're playing on the same team what each guy plays in other defensive cores doesn't really mean anything.

What makes Kindl just as good as Quincey? Certainly not his TOI or stats. Ericsson, to me, is better than Hannan because that's what I see when I watch each of them play. Same for you with Kindl and Q.

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08-18-2012, 02:55 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Unless they're playing on the same team what each guy plays in other defensive cores doesn't really mean anything.

What makes Kindl just as good as Quincey? Certainly not his TOI or stats. Ericsson, to me, is better than Hannan because that's what I see when I watch each of them play. Same for you with Kindl and Q.
Kindl posted better ES offensive numbers than Quincey last year, and he was barely given a chance on the PP (or at ES, for that matter). Kindl is at least as good if not better offensively than Quincey. Defensively Quincey might have the edge... but not a $3m edge. Ericsson's defensive advantage over Kindl isn't even worth $3m. How much is Kindl worth when his deal's up? $2m? $2.5m? $3m?

I have been saying since summer 2009 we should trade Stuart, and I think now that if the Wings deal for a defenseman Quincey needs to be involved. Flip or Franzen is the logical starting point for a deal, and Quincey provides value to bring back a decent forward along with the defenseman. Such as Flip/Franzen+Quincey+pick for Bouwmeester+Hudler/Glencross/Stajan/Stempniak/Cammalleri/Tanguay

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08-18-2012, 10:12 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Unless they're playing on the same team what each guy plays in other defensive cores doesn't really mean anything.

What makes Kindl just as good as Quincey? Certainly not his TOI or stats. Ericsson, to me, is better than Hannan because that's what I see when I watch each of them play. Same for you with Kindl and Q.
Jesus.
I've shown the stats that point out how weak Quincey's offense is.

I'm not talking about one season with Hannan. I'm talking about a guy who only once in the last 10 years has played less than 20 minutes (19:47 in 11).

Ericsson's best is 18:50.

Let's stop acting like Ericsson is some 24 year old. He's 28. His career high in points doesn't indicate he's a "top 4" defenseman. His icetime doesn't indicate he's a top 4 defenseman. He doesn't have a track record to indicate he's a top 4 defenseman.

He's got a good chance to get lots of minutes on a Red Wings defense that will make last year's Flames defense look like the 77 Habs.

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08-18-2012, 11:33 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
:

...Let's stop acting like Ericsson is some 24 year old. He's 28. His career high in points doesn't indicate he's a "top 4" defenseman. His icetime doesn't indicate he's a top 4 defenseman. He doesn't have a track record to indicate he's a top 4 defenseman.
And the Wings board begins to melt down...

I can't believe someone has the balls to pop so many posters shiny red balloon! Ericsson is overrated this off-season, and without Nick and Stuey I think many fans are going to be shocked at how much more difficult a time we will have just getting out of our zone. All I can think of big E is taking bad penalties, chasing frantically in our own zone, and never scoring when he has an open opportunity. I cringe at the thought of him defending against Malkin, Kopitar, Thornton, Kessel, etc.

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08-20-2012, 10:35 AM
  #39
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And the Wings board begins to melt down...

I can't believe someone has the balls to pop so many posters shiny red balloon! Ericsson is overrated this off-season, and without Nick and Stuey I think many fans are going to be shocked at how much more difficult a time we will have just getting out of our zone. All I can think of big E is taking bad penalties, chasing frantically in our own zone, and never scoring when he has an open opportunity. I cringe at the thought of him defending against Malkin, Kopitar, Thornton, Kessel, etc.
Totally agree. Yet when I post about how weak our defense is, people make "the sky is falling" jokes. Sorry, it is that bad.

When we signed Gustavsson I said he and Howard would see way more rubber than Wings goalies are used to. This is exactly why. An inability to clear the puck = shooting gallery. The cumulative losses of Lidstrom, Stuart and Rafalski over the course of 12 months is huge. One can't replace those guys with White, Quincey and Smith and hope to have anything close to as good of a defense. Additionally, expecting Ericsson to step into Stuart's role without a drop off in results is asking too much. Big E is a third pairing D making entirely too much money.

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08-20-2012, 10:54 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Jesus.
I've shown the stats that point out how weak Quincey's offense is.

I'm not talking about one season with Hannan. I'm talking about a guy who only once in the last 10 years has played less than 20 minutes (19:47 in 11).

Ericsson's best is 18:50.

Let's stop acting like Ericsson is some 24 year old. He's 28. His career high in points doesn't indicate he's a "top 4" defenseman. His icetime doesn't indicate he's a top 4 defenseman. He doesn't have a track record to indicate he's a top 4 defenseman.

He's got a good chance to get lots of minutes on a Red Wings defense that will make last year's Flames defense look like the 77 Habs.
None of this shows any context of the teams and who is on them. But Ericsson is viewed as a long term fix, Hannan is what? I don't disagree with the idea that a team needs to find cheap options for certain positions, but I don't agree that you should try to do that every year or every other year. Eventually you'll want stability.

We can point towards Samuelsson and Cleary for junk pile players that we've found and we can point to other players that the other 29 teams collectively find each year. But the chances of finding those players, having them fit AND work while exceeding expectations year in and year out is asking a lot.

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08-20-2012, 12:38 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
None of this shows any context of the teams and who is on them. But Ericsson is viewed as a long term fix, Hannan is what? I don't disagree with the idea that a team needs to find cheap options for certain positions, but I don't agree that you should try to do that every year or every other year. Eventually you'll want stability.

We can point towards Samuelsson and Cleary for junk pile players that we've found and we can point to other players that the other 29 teams collectively find each year. But the chances of finding those players, having them fit AND work while exceeding expectations year in and year out is asking a lot.
My take on this philosophy is that the main incentive to use junk pile, bargain players to fill out the roster is so you can have a highly skilled, highly paid core. That is where stability matters most, IMO. If a team has a solid core, they will be competitive no matter who gets plugged into the remaining spots as a cheap roster filler.

Here, we have cap space to burn and we haven't been able to acquire the types of players who could potentially make that an issue. This doesn't mean that I agree with Ericsson's contract... it just means it isn't as problematic as it could be. If you took Datsyuk and Zetterberg and added in Suter and Parise's contracts, then the situation changes. Now cap space becomes important, and having continuity on the 4th line or 3rd pairing doesn't.

Talent is what wins, not a cohesive group of so-so players. Compounding the problem is that as the so-so players are retained their salaries push them well out of the realm of bargains. Cleary, Bertuzzi, Samuelsson... all were once a deal, but not anymore.

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08-20-2012, 01:41 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
That's because he's got his thinking wrong.

He's spending $3M on fringe players like Samuelsson who can be replaced by $800,000 players.

He went out and spent a first rounder and then almost $4M on a guy like Quincey who isn't markedly better than Kindl at his minimal price.

And yet he wants to get deals on Parise and Hossa and Zetterberg and Franzen.
I have to agree with CB this time (although I rarely do). Holland should have made a stronger push for Parise and Suter (even if it means we have to overpay for them). We have lost Lidstrom and Stuart already from a roster that is obviously inadequate to win the cup, and we obviously need a top forward to play with datsyuk. Yet, we only offered something that is easily matched or topped by others (Holland knew we didn't have to "play for your home team" advantage). C'mon, we are fighting for 2 FAs that we knew can have a huge impact on our chance for another championship!!! It's just pathetic. All the talk about improving the team this offseason, making a big splash in the FA market etc. is complete bs in retrospect. I didn't like the samuelsson signing because he's just gonna be another Hudler. Quincey will not be able to effectively replace Stuart. He can make some good plays sometimes, but he's not consistent enough and too many dumb penalties. Ericsson, I see good is his game, but when he sign the extension, it was definitely an overpayment. I hope his game will be even better this coming season.

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08-20-2012, 03:20 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
None of this shows any context of the teams and who is on them. But Ericsson is viewed as a long term fix, Hannan is what? I don't disagree with the idea that a team needs to find cheap options for certain positions, but I don't agree that you should try to do that every year or every other year. Eventually you'll want stability.

We can point towards Samuelsson and Cleary for junk pile players that we've found and we can point to other players that the other 29 teams collectively find each year. But the chances of finding those players, having them fit AND work while exceeding expectations year in and year out is asking a lot.
Long term fix?
Look, had we signed Hannan last year and then kept him around at a modest range, we'd have two years.
Same length as the Big E contract.

Hannan's game isn't about skating, so there's no reason he can't do what he does for another 2-3 years.

In that time, some other 5-6 defenseman will become available on the market for cheap.

Asking decent NHLers to step in and fit in well in small roles IS NOT asking a lot.


It's asking them to be competent.

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08-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #44
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Interesting signing. Interesting thread.

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