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Does Bobby Ryan's value = PK Subban's value ?

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Old
08-20-2012, 09:56 AM
  #76
Gliff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
That's not what a #1 defenseman is.
Care to educate us with your opinions then?

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Old
08-20-2012, 09:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Care to educate us with your opinions then?
There's a thread on the main board so I don't want to get into it but it's not a top10 d-man in the league.

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08-20-2012, 10:02 AM
  #78
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Looking at the thread opinions, I'd guess they're about the same value. And I agree.

Now for people always spewing crap like 'and it's not even close' -->

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:05 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Care to educate us with your opinions then?
A number one dman is not a top 10 dman.. Most likely a top 30-50.
For the sake of it for you, who is a number 1 in this list? OEL, Letang, Karlsson(OHGOD..), Subban, Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo, Chara, Edler, Suter, Doughty, Lidstrom, Mcdonagh, Carlson, Campbell, Boyle, Phaneuf, Burns and Seabrook

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:17 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Care to educate us with your opinions then?
Here's the latest top 50 D Men according to HF: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1247437

Here's the top 10:

#1 - Shea Weber
#2 - Zdeno Chara
#3 - Erik Karlsson
#4 - Alex Pietrangelo
#5 - Ryan Suter
#6 - Nicklas Lidstrom (retired)
#7 - Kris Letang
#8 - Drew Doughty
#9 - Duncan Keith
#10 - Keith Yandle

So with your thinking, these guys aren't number 1 DMen:

#11 - Dan Boyle
#12 - Alexander Edler
#13 - Brent Seabrook
#14 - Brian Campbell
#15 - Oliver Ekman-Larsson
#16 - Tobias Enstrom
#17 - Ryan McDonagh
#18 - Kimmo Timonen
#19 - Dan Girardi
#20 - Erik Johnson
#21 - Marc Staal
#22 - Brent Burns
#23 - Niklas Kronwall
#24 - Dan Hamhuis
#25 - Dion Phaneuf
#26 - Mike Green
#27 - Mark Streit
#28 - P.K. Subban
#29 - Tyler Myers
#30 - Jack Johnson

Really?

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:40 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Here's the latest top 50 D Men according to HF: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1247437

Here's the top 10:

#1 - Shea Weber
#2 - Zdeno Chara
#3 - Erik Karlsson
#4 - Alex Pietrangelo
#5 - Ryan Suter
#6 - Nicklas Lidstrom (retired)
#7 - Kris Letang
#8 - Drew Doughty
#9 - Duncan Keith
#10 - Keith Yandle

So with your thinking, these guys aren't number 1 DMen:

#11 - Dan Boyle
#12 - Alexander Edler
#13 - Brent Seabrook
#14 - Brian Campbell
#15 - Oliver Ekman-Larsson
#16 - Tobias Enstrom
#17 - Ryan McDonagh
#18 - Kimmo Timonen
#19 - Dan Girardi
#20 - Erik Johnson
#21 - Marc Staal
#22 - Brent Burns
#23 - Niklas Kronwall
#24 - Dan Hamhuis
#25 - Dion Phaneuf
#26 - Mike Green
#27 - Mark Streit
#28 - P.K. Subban
#29 - Tyler Myers
#30 - Jack Johnson

Really?
The bolded are the ones that I do not think are legit #1's. Some of those players I love and watch alot.

Boyle and Yandle are 2 of my favorite players NOT on the Ducks but I dont think they are #1's. I hate Doughty and Weber and Letang but I think they are #1's.

It is just my opinion, and I'm not saying you should ahve the same 1 but to me, a #1 needs to be a player that can be out there every part of the game and dominate, OR has to dominate the offensive side while not being a detriment on the defensive side.

That is the difference between Visnovsky from 2011 and Karlsson. Vis frequently was a disaster in his own end. I have never seen that from Karlsson, even though I'm sure it happens some.

The players in red are the players that I think will be #1's with age or something else. I think Green will be a #1 if he can have even close to the offensive threat he had years ago and play the defense that he plays now.

I realize that I just pissed off the fan bases of 20 teams by saying their best defender is not a #1 but this is how I feel. Sorry if you disagree.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:42 AM
  #82
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
The bolded are the ones that I do not think are legit #1's. Some of those players I love and watch alot.

Boyle and Yandle are 2 of my favorite players NOT on the Ducks but I dont think they are #1's. I hate Doughty and Weber and Letang but I think they are #1's.

It is just my opinion, and I'm not saying you should ahve the same 1 but to me, a #1 needs to be a player that can be out there every part of the game and dominate, OR has to dominate the offensive side while not being a detriment on the defensive side.

That is the difference between Visnovsky from 2011 and Karlsson. Vis frequently was a disaster in his own end. I have never seen that from Karlsson, even though I'm sure it happens some.

The players in red are the players that I think will be #1's with age or something else. I think Green will be a #1 if he can have even close to the offensive threat he had years ago and play the defense that he plays now.

I realize that I just pissed off the fan bases of 20 teams by saying their best defender is not a #1 but this is how I feel. Sorry if you disagree.

Well by your definition P.K. is a number 1.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:44 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Well by your definition P.K. is a number 1.
Obviously not since he is bolded huh?

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:48 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
Agreed. Value is close but Subban has more upside at this point whereas Ryan pretty much is what he is.

Whether or not you discount for PK's off-ice stuff, fighting with teammates in practice etc. could skew it.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:49 AM
  #85
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a #1 needs to be a player that can be out there every part of the game and dominate, OR has to dominate the offensive side while not being a detriment on the defensive side.

Watch P.K. more because he is the first part.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:58 AM
  #86
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Well that's just like, your opinion man.

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Old
08-20-2012, 11:08 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Well that's just like, your opinion man.
No, it's not just his opinion. He's right.

You just described Subban in your definition of a #1 D-man and now you're denying he plays like that... conclusion: you don't even watch him.

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Old
08-20-2012, 11:13 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
As title states ?
I would think it would vary from team to team.

The Rangers may value Ryan a bit higher because they like their top 4.

The Flyers may value Subban higher cause they could use more help on D than up front.

The Islanders may hold both equally valuable cuse they could use help at both defence and forward.

I don't think it is cut and dry.

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Old
08-20-2012, 11:15 AM
  #89
Gliff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
No, it's not just his opinion. He's right.

You just described Subban in your definition of a #1 D-man and now you're denying he plays like that... conclusion: you don't even watch him.
Fun fact: I watch MTL Toronto and and Vancouver more then any team outside of the Pacific.

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Old
08-20-2012, 11:16 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Fun fact: I watch MTL Toronto and and Vancouver more then any team outside of the Pacific.
That's nice, it doesn't mean you have an informed opinion about Subban.

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Old
08-20-2012, 11:57 AM
  #91
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Fun fact: I watch MTL Toronto and and Vancouver more then any team outside of the Pacific.
I'm not trying to take shots here.

But seriously i'll take one, you're misinformed.

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Old
08-20-2012, 12:05 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
I realize that I just pissed off the fan bases of 20 teams by saying their best defender is not a #1 but this is how I feel. Sorry if you disagree.
Actually, I don't disagree with all of your picks, it's just when you decide to throw out the "Top 10" in the league argument, it as a tendency to raise some eye brows.

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Old
08-20-2012, 12:14 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Actually, I don't disagree with all of your picks, it's just when you decide to throw out the "Top 10" in the league argument, it as a tendency to raise some eye brows.
It was a general label lol. I didnt mean the #11 guy is not a #1 because he is #11 and not #10.

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Old
08-20-2012, 12:44 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gliff View Post
It was a general label lol. I didnt mean the #11 guy is not a #1 because he is #11 and not #10.
It's not even that your top 10 d-man = #1 d-man is a faulty premise anymore but if you don't believe that Subban can't be out there ever part of the game and dominate, it's hard to take you seriously.

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Old
08-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #95
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I would love to see a poll on this, but only if Habs and Ducks fans dont vote and leave it to the rest of the league. Pretty much every Hab fan thinks PK is the second coming of Bobby Orr so they will all vote PK being better. Ducks fans will tend to do the same thing for Ryan but with less enhusiasm shall we say
I would be very curious to see how it ended up.

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:02 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by vespa99 View Post
I would love to see a poll on this, but only if Habs and Ducks fans dont vote and leave it to the rest of the league. Pretty much every Hab fan thinks PK is the second coming of Bobby Orr so they will all vote PK being better. Ducks fans will tend to do the same thing for Ryan but with less enhusiasm shall we say
I would be very curious to see how it ended up.
dude what?

the argument is that they are saying he's a number one d-man, not bobby ****ing orr.

besides, karlsson already has that label locked up

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:06 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I don't think there is a more overrated defensive player than Subban (merely talking about his defense, here). He's solid defensively, but he's nothing spectacular. ****, the Rangers have four guys alone better than him on the defensive side (Staal, McDonagh, Girardi and Sauer). I like the guy's game quite a bit and I think he gets **** on a lot on this board for being a Canadien, but let's not sit there and make him out to be something amazing defensively.

I think his skating actually makes up for a lot of his defensive mistakes since he can get in position quite a bit quicker than most.

I don't think he's bad at all defensively. I think he's actually quite good. Just not great as some like to think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Seriously, watch P.K. more often...

He's (I'd say) the best 1 on 1 dman in the league, and all that talk about him being a defensive liability with his bad decision ??!?!? WHERE IN THE HECK DID YOU SEE THAT ???

P.K. has two flaws:
1. He need's to get his shot back, he was taking bad slapper all nights.. This was one of his strenght in his rookie season... He'll get it back with a healthy Markov.
2. Off ice. (Not that it's a big deal.. But it would still be cool if he got his act together..)
You two meet in the middle, right now

Both of you have a point.
PK is awesome one on one while playing D
PK is also the most penalized player in the league last season when it came down to minor penalties.
There are times, he rushes the puck or makes a bad play and ends up overplaying to make amends and takes a penalty for it. He does a lot of high risk plays in comparison to other players. When he plays it as he envisions, it's spectacular

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:07 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa99 View Post
I would love to see a poll on this, but only if Habs and Ducks fans dont vote and leave it to the rest of the league. Pretty much every Hab fan thinks PK is the second coming of Bobby Orr so they will all vote PK being better. Ducks fans will tend to do the same thing for Ryan but with less enhusiasm shall we say
I would be very curious to see how it ended up.
He's not the second coming of Bobby Orr. He's way better AINEC.

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:11 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
He's not the second coming of Bobby Orr. He's way better AINEC.
Hahahaha. Touche

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Old
08-20-2012, 02:14 PM
  #100
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No chance I'd trade Ryan for subban. Ryans value is huge compared to subban imo

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