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Markham Arena II

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:12 PM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Well, that's not really saying much, as even from Leafs fans I know have admitted that their atmosphere in the ACC kind of sucks due to the overwhelming number of corporate attendees that they've got that aren't really as many diehard fans in attendance as you'd see in other arenas.
2 things. I would say that Markham has a fair corporate community,
and would do the same thing as the ACC is purported to be doing.
Other corporations, who can't into the ACC, will do the next and
distant best thing. I also don't think overall, there would be that
many fans.

The ACC gets a bad rap because its quiet. However; during the playoffs, the place was totally into it, and loud. If the make it back,
expect to see a transformation.

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08-13-2012, 04:22 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
The fundamental problem of a second team in T.O lies exactly in this statement... Greater Torontoans ( lol ) have already favorite teams if not the leafs, the habs, sens, oilers, bruins, pens... The team would probably attract fan-fare but not more than Ottawa imo, probably less in fact.
And Ottawa is thriving... one of the healthiest franchises in the league. Seems to me like its a good idea, its a much bigger market then Ottawa too.

If I was living in Toronto id love to have another NHL franchise. There are more than enough hockey fans to support another NHL team in the GTA. Leaf fans are unbelievably loyal they will support the team no matter how bad they are under any circumstances, this will not change.

I see arguments that Toronto cant support another 'professional sports franchise' then I see teams listed like the Jays, Argo's toronto FC then AHL and jr hockey franchises. First of all the Jays, Argo's and Toronto FC play at a different time of year and are a completely different sport. Second of all this is Canada, hockey dominates, I know tons of people that live in Toronto and are not leaf fans and in no way shape or form will A pay for a leafs game or B even capable of getting tickets because its already sold out. But they will certainly pay reasonable pricing and watch a team that they can like or cheer for.

Its a shame that MLSE wont allow for another team, there revenues will continue to grow, if they dont then they should put a clause in the new 'GTA' teams leasing contract to pay out the difference. If this amount is unsustainable then the franchise should have to move.

More Canadian franchise's the better, id love to see a team in Hamilton/Southern Ontario too but that would be far more detrimental to the Sabres then a another team in the GTA would be to the Leafs.


Last edited by bert: 08-13-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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08-13-2012, 04:39 PM
  #328
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I predict within 10 years the NHL. will look very diffirent from the NHL. of today for instance Gary Bettman will be gone especially if there is another lengthy lockout also the relocation of 3 teams & the addition of 3 expansion teams .

New Cities
Quebec City
Hamilton
Seattle
Houston
Kansas City \ Portland
Markham (Toronto) \ Cleveland

Markham (Toronto ) will only get a NHL.team one if they build that arena , if MLSE. alows them to have one & if GTA. Sports Entertainment Group or any other ownership group is willing to shell out the 700 million that it will cost for a team to play there .

Kansas City will only get an NHL. team if the NBA. dose not get there first .

So by the end of the decade we can see as many as 10 teams in Canada which could mean a stronger NHL. but I still can't see MLSE. allowing a NHL. team in Markham Hamilton on the other hand they can tollerate but not Markham .

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08-13-2012, 04:51 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I predict within 10 years the NHL. will look very diffirent from the NHL. of today for instance Gary Bettman will be gone especially if there is another lengthy lockout also the relocation of 3 teams & the addition of 3 expansion teams .

New Cities
Quebec City
Hamilton
Seattle
Houston
Kansas City \ Portland
Markham (Toronto) \ Cleveland

Markham (Toronto ) will only get a NHL.team one if they build that arena , if MLSE. alows them to have one & if GTA. Sports Entertainment Group or any other ownership group is willing to shell out the 700 million that it will cost for a team to play there .

Kansas City will only get an NHL. team if the NBA. dose not get there first .

So by the end of the decade we can see as many as 10 teams in Canada which could mean a stronger NHL. but I still can't see MLSE. allowing a NHL. team in Markham Hamilton on the other hand they can tollerate but not Markham .
A couple faults I have....

Firstly, you're confusing fan hatred of Bettman for owner hatred. The owners love the dude for the most part, and there's a very significant possibility that he'll still be commissioner in ten years.

Second.... uh.... you expect a 33-team NHL? That seems.... odd....

Third, for the cities, a few things. Seattle and Quebec City seem like the obvious choices, so I can agree there. But beyond them, there are issues. At most, I think we can see one more Southern Ontario team being added (not saying that they couldn't support more), so I do think that it'll be either Markham or Hamilton or neither market, not both. Houston and KC are both oft-mentioned, but of the two Houston is only possible assuming that they piece together an ownership group, which a prolonged expansion deliberation process could very much help. KC though.... I think they could support a team, but nothing I've heard from that market indicates that anyone's remotely interested in a team. Cleveland will never get a team so long as Columbus still has a team. And finally, Portland entirely depends on if Paul Allen wants a team or not. If he does, they skyrocket past Seattle and the QC as the next landing ground for an NHL team. If he doesn't, then they have zero chance.

Fourth, and finally.... what three teams do you see relocating, by any chance? Yotes are obviously still up in the air, but who else? Isles seem more interested in a temp move to Barclays, as bad as that may be, over anything else. Columbus is seemingly locked down with a new arena financing deal that solves a lot of their problems. New Jersey only has arena debt issues, not market or fanbase issues, so someone will pick them up in a heartbeat to remain there if the current ownership ever files for bankruptcy and needs to sell. The Panthers, despite being brought up in just about every relocation conversation, are being used as an anchor tenant for their arena and as part of an overall land redevelopment plan surrounding it that are making their owners money, so they're not going to sell that lynchpin even if it by itself is in the red. And Dallas.... well, they're an odd one, but even still I have a hard time imagining the NHL pulling out of a market that huge.

So really, only one team as a possible relocation candidate in the near future, and only time will tell what'll happen with the Yotes.

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08-13-2012, 04:52 PM
  #330
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Like I said MLSE. can tolerate a team in Hamilton because Hamilton is far enough away that it won't in fringe on its non hockey revenue but Markham would . Markham would take away hockey & non hockey events away from MLSE. & I could see MLSE. pulling out all the stops to prevent an NHL. team from takking root in Markham & if that means doing everything they can put a NHL. team in Hamilton so be it . It is a classic case of going with the devil you know rather than the one you don't in MLSE. eyes .

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08-13-2012, 04:57 PM
  #331
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Good point, though with Balsillie out of the picture is there any prominent Hamiltonian that we should be aware of as a potential owner?

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08-13-2012, 05:12 PM
  #332
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Maybe I should have put 2-4 expansion teams as far as relocation gose there is whole mess of teams that can be relocated especially if there is another lengthy lockout .

Coyotes *
Islanders*
Predetors
Stars*
Panthers
Blue Jackets
Devils

I doubt the Islanders will move to the Barclays Center because place was clearlly bulit for Basketball not hockey & if they do it won't be for very long because it is quit clear the Charles Wang has had enough & wants to sell & move the team out of New York . Say if this deal with Greg Jamison gose through it won't be long until the coyotes are in the same spot again because it is clear to me if Jamison group can't make it work in 3 years if that the coyotes will move .

* Most likely to move within 10 years .

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08-13-2012, 05:20 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Good point, though with Balsillie out of the picture is there any prominent Hamiltonian that we should be aware of as a potential owner?
I am sure there are groups out there that want to bring an NHL. team to Hamilton & once winning bid to run Copps Coliseum is anounced thoses groups will start to come out of the woodwork .

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08-13-2012, 05:23 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
A couple faults I have....

Firstly, you're confusing fan hatred of Bettman for owner hatred. The owners love the dude for the most part, and there's a very significant possibility that he'll still be commissioner in ten years.

Second.... uh.... you expect a 33-team NHL? That seems.... odd....

Third, for the cities, a few things. Seattle and Quebec City seem like the obvious choices, so I can agree there. But beyond them, there are issues. At most, I think we can see one more Southern Ontario team being added (not saying that they couldn't support more), so I do think that it'll be either Markham or Hamilton or neither market, not both. Houston and KC are both oft-mentioned, but of the two Houston is only possible assuming that they piece together an ownership group, which a prolonged expansion deliberation process could very much help. KC though.... I think they could support a team, but nothing I've heard from that market indicates that anyone's remotely interested in a team. Cleveland will never get a team so long as Columbus still has a team. And finally, Portland entirely depends on if Paul Allen wants a team or not. If he does, they skyrocket past Seattle and the QC as the next landing ground for an NHL team. If he doesn't, then they have zero chance.

Fourth, and finally.... what three teams do you see relocating, by any chance? Yotes are obviously still up in the air, but who else? Isles seem more interested in a temp move to Barclays, as bad as that may be, over anything else. Columbus is seemingly locked down with a new arena financing deal that solves a lot of their problems. New Jersey only has arena debt issues, not market or fanbase issues, so someone will pick them up in a heartbeat to remain there if the current ownership ever files for bankruptcy and needs to sell. The Panthers, despite being brought up in just about every relocation conversation, are being used as an anchor tenant for their arena and as part of an overall land redevelopment plan surrounding it that are making their owners money, so they're not going to sell that lynchpin even if it by itself is in the red. And Dallas.... well, they're an odd one, but even still I have a hard time imagining the NHL pulling out of a market that huge.

So really, only one team as a possible relocation candidate in the near future, and only time will tell what'll happen with the Yotes.
They pulled out of Atlanta twice & Atlanta is a pretty huge market .

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08-13-2012, 07:17 PM
  #335
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They say 325 million eh? By the time the crooked politicians, builders and other freeloading crooks and thieves get done it'll be more like 2 Billion, same as every other major construction, Skydome, CN Tower, etc, with the extra 1.675 Billion going into numerous Swiss bank accounts.

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08-14-2012, 08:31 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by MintoMadDogsKiller18 View Post
They say 325 million eh? By the time the crooked politicians, builders and other freeloading crooks and thieves get done it'll be more like 2 Billion, same as every other major construction, Skydome, CN Tower, etc, with the extra 1.675 Billion going into numerous Swiss bank accounts.
source?

an unrelated, but likely influential set of events in nearby Brampton ... the city has been ordered to open up its books concerning a proposed 3-phase redevelopment of City Hall.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...-huge-contract

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStar
Ontario’s freedom of information watchdog has ordered the City of Brampton to release key details about one of the largest projects in the city’s history.

The decision compels the city to clarify calculations of the square footage of the downtown redevelopment plan and the cost per square foot, which it had kept secret from taxpayers.

...

[Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner Cathy] Hamilton’s decision also states that “public accountability” when taxpayer dollars are being spent demands “detailed and convincing” evidence for why certain information should be withheld from the public. The city has been ordered to release the information between Aug. 31 and Sept. 6.

...
a little public accountability in any large scale city capital expenditure is always a good idea ...


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08-20-2012, 11:17 AM
  #337
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If this arena gets built, then I'm convinced the fix is in and Markham will get an NHL team.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4488686/

Quote:
Graeme Roustan is convinced he can build a 20,000-seat arena in the suburbs northeast of Toronto and make it profitable without an NHL team as a major tenant.

A lot of skeptics are just as convinced he cannot. Among them are taxpayers in Markham, Ont., who wonder about the promises from local politicians, and from Roustan and his partner, real-estate tycoon Rudy Bratty, that the cost of the $325-million project will not come out of their pockets.

Also doubtful are NHL executives, and those familiar with the operations of the Air Canada Centre, one of North America’s busiest arenas some 32 kilometres south in downtown Toronto.

One source, who knows the hockey and concert business in the Greater Toronto Area but requested anonymity because he is not authorized to speak for the owners of the Air Canada Centre (Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd.), says even if Roustan can book close to the 50 concerts a year that the ACC averages, they do not bring in enough money to support a large arena.

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08-20-2012, 12:34 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
If this arena gets built, then I'm convinced the fix is in and Markham will get an NHL team.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4488686/
I would not be to worried about this so called arena in Markham because I doubt it will get bulit unless they have some garantee of an anchor tenent wethier it be the NHL. , OHL. , AFL. , AHL. also if it is found out that this arena is going to be funded by taxpayer money Markham would cancel the project in a second . Besides MLSE. won't allow another team in there market & will fight tooth & nail to keep a 2nd NHL. from takking root there & if by some maricall they do build this arena & they do try to get an NHL. team MLSE. will make them pay through the nose to give up there territory rights somewhere around 300 million dollars not to mention the cost of the team in which would be around 350-400 million dollars .

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08-20-2012, 12:41 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Like I said MLSE. can tolerate a team in Hamilton because Hamilton is far enough away that it won't in fringe on its non hockey revenue but Markham would . Markham would take away hockey & non hockey events away from MLSE. & I could see MLSE. pulling out all the stops to prevent an NHL. team from takking root in Markham & if that means doing everything they can put a NHL. team in Hamilton so be it . It is a classic case of going with the devil you know rather than the one you don't in MLSE. eyes .
Tolerate, but to have a team in Hamilton means you have to pay off both Buffalo and MLSE. I just do not see how you can do that and have a viable franchise. Something like that could easily run 300M before you even acquired a team .....

Markham only has one to pay off, and I'm sure it could be done, but the price would be very very high. Costs of a franchise, servicing the arena debt and paying off MLSE? That sounds like a billion dollar venture.

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08-20-2012, 12:41 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
If this arena gets built, then I'm convinced the fix is in and Markham will get an NHL team.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4488686/
I wouldn't go that far, as there's still Leafs and Sabres (for Hamilton) opposition that the NHL would have to deal with if they seriously tried to either put/allow a second team in Southern Ontario. And it'll all depend on the path of least resistance in to which will happen, if either.

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08-20-2012, 01:13 PM
  #341
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Tolerate, but to have a team in Hamilton means you have to pay off both Buffalo and MLSE. I just do not see how you can do that and have a viable franchise. Something like that could easily run 300M before you even acquired a team .....

Markham only has one to pay off, and I'm sure it could be done, but the price would be very very high. Costs of a franchise, servicing the arena debt and paying off MLSE? That sounds like a billion dollar venture.
True a Hamilton team would have to pay off both MLSE. & the Sabres but not nearly has much as team in Markham would have to pay MLSE. because Hamilton is far enough away from both Toronto & Buffalo that it will not effect non hockey events . such as concerts , trade show ect. & here is the breakdown .

NHL. team in Hamilton
Copps Coliseum upgrade - 150 million
Territory Rights Pay Off - MLSE. 30 - 40 million , Sabres 20 - 30 million
NHL. Team - 350 - 400 million

= 550 - 600 million dollars

NHL. team in Markham
New Arena - 350 million
Territory rights pay off - 300 - 250 million
NHL. team - 350 - 400 million

= Billion +

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08-20-2012, 01:27 PM
  #342
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True a Hamilton team would have to pay off both MLSE. & the Sabres but not nearly has much as team in Markham would have to pay MLSE. because Hamilton is far enough away from both Toronto & Buffalo that it will not effect non hockey events . such as concerts , trade show ect. & here is the breakdown .

NHL. team in Hamilton
Territory Rights Pay Off - MLSE. 30 - 40 million , Sabres 20 - 30 million
I think your Markham numbers look correct. I cannot see the price for Hamilton being that low though. I just think the other two will look at milking it. You are basically suggesting the same price paid for territorial rights in the mid 90's (Anaheim), this is 20 years later.

I just can imagine the owners of those two teams with dollar signs in their eyes .....

I agree its the right place to move, I just cannot see it happening.

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08-20-2012, 01:44 PM
  #343
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I think your Markham numbers look correct. I cannot see the price for Hamilton being that low though. I just think the other two will look at milking it. You are basically suggesting the same price paid for territorial rights in the mid 90's (Anaheim), this is 20 years later.

I just can imagine the owners of those two teams with dollar signs in their eyes .....

I agree its the right place to move, I just cannot see it happening.
The territory rights pay off for Hamilton might not be that low but it would be still be cheaper pay off than Markham would have to pay . Because Hamilton is far enough away that it won't impact there non hockey events like concerts ect. & thats why Markham would have to pay more for territory rights because they would impact hockey & non hockey events events .

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08-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I predict within 10 years the NHL. will look very diffirent from the NHL. of today for instance Gary Bettman will be gone especially if there is another lengthy lockout also the relocation of 3 teams & the addition of 3 expansion teams .

New Cities
Quebec City
Hamilton
Seattle
Houston
Kansas City \ Portland
Markham (Toronto) \ Cleveland

Markham (Toronto ) will only get a NHL.team one if they build that arena , if MLSE. alows them to have one & if GTA. Sports Entertainment Group or any other ownership group is willing to shell out the 700 million that it will cost for a team to play there .

Kansas City will only get an NHL. team if the NBA. dose not get there first .

So by the end of the decade we can see as many as 10 teams in Canada which could mean a stronger NHL. but I still can't see MLSE. allowing a NHL. team in Markham Hamilton on the other hand they can tollerate but not Markham .
cross out cleveland from the list......

its a football town...

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08-20-2012, 02:51 PM
  #345
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cross out cleveland from the list......

its a football town...
So is Buffalo, people don't seem to think the Sabres aren't viable.

(I don't think Cleveland is a good idea, I just don't think them being a football town is the reason why)

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08-20-2012, 02:57 PM
  #346
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I just don't think they're viable because the sport of hockey hasn't proven itself to be popular enough in Ohio to have it feature more than one NHL team. The only way that Cleveland gets a team would be if the BJ's popularity utterly explodes and there's a massive demand for another team (which, no offense, does not seem likely any time soon) or if the BJs need to relocate and the NHL doesn't want to give up on a state the size of Ohio (which also looks unlikely, given their new arena financing/operating deal removing a great deal of the financial strain that the team was experiencing).

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08-20-2012, 03:51 PM
  #347
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Good point, though with Balsillie out of the picture is there any prominent Hamiltonian that we should be aware of as a potential owner?
People who want to make money. You don't have to be from a city to own a team there. Tom Gaglardi wanted to buy the Thrashers and move them to Hamilton.

Quote:
cross out cleveland from the list......

its a football town...
Cleveland is a football town the way Toronto is a hockey town. Football is #1 in Cleveland the way hockey is #1 Toronto even though neither team has won anything in forever. However, that doesn't mean other sports can't do well there. The issue with Cleveland is the economy there has been decimated over the course of many years. It seems that pretty much every time a Cleveland company merges with an out of town company Cleveland loses the headquarters (OfficeMax, BP/Amoco, National City Bank, etc) So with the economy there just isn't enough disposable dollars for a 4th team. Maybe in the 90s when the city was on a roll, but not now. I don't think the Blue Jackets presence has any impact on the potential for Cleveland having a team. The cities are 2 hours apart and Clevelanders don't like to go anywhere that takes more than 20 minutes to get to. While Cleveland is a big Ohio State town, they really don't have any warm feelings towards anything else Columbus. In fact for years there was a feeling in Cleveland that the state leadership wanted to destroy Cleveland and make Columbus the big dog in the state.

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08-20-2012, 03:54 PM
  #348
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cross out cleveland from the list......

its a football town...
Baseball as well - well, the less said about that the better.

Looking at it I don't see the league pulling out of Dallas any time soon. That's a huge market and would create a massive void in Southern USA. If Seattle get's an expansion team then I don't think Portland would get one.

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08-20-2012, 04:12 PM
  #349
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I wouldn't go that far, as there's still Leafs and Sabres (for Hamilton) opposition that the NHL would have to deal with if they seriously tried to either put/allow a second team in Southern Ontario. And it'll all depend on the path of least resistance in to which will happen, if either.
The path of least resistance betwen Hamilton & Markham is Hamilton do to the fact Hamilton is cheaper overall when you compare all the costs involved & also Hamilton is far enough away from both Buffalo & Toronto that it won't impact its non hockey intrests .

Hamilton - 550 - 600 million

Markham - 1 billion +

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08-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #350
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True a Hamilton team would have to pay off both MLSE. & the Sabres but not nearly has much as team in Markham would have to pay MLSE. because Hamilton is far enough away from both Toronto & Buffalo that it will not effect non hockey events . such as concerts , trade show ect. & here is the breakdown .

NHL. team in Hamilton
Copps Coliseum upgrade - 150 million
Territory Rights Pay Off - MLSE. 30 - 40 million , Sabres 20 - 30 million
NHL. Team - 350 - 400 million

= 550 - 600 million dollars

NHL. team in Markham
New Arena - 350 million
Territory rights pay off - 300 - 250 million
NHL. team - 350 - 400 million

= Billion +
Territorial fees would be much higher than 30/40 million. Much, much higher. The last fee paid was Anahiem, 25 million which was 50% of the expansion fee. So if an NHL team is 250, Buffalo and Toronto would want 125 million each. Note when Colorado moved to New Jersey, they had to pay NY Rangers, NYI and the Flyers. There is lots of precedence to establish fees and there is precedence for multiple pay offs.


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