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Rick Nash+S.Delisle+cond. 3rd to NYR for Dubinsky+Anisimov+Erixon+2013 1st (Part III)

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08-20-2012, 01:37 PM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
We lose some salary, but that's because you're trading 3 players for one. When you fill out the roster to replace Dubinsky/Anisimov, you're going to use up more cap space.
We are? We already replaced them with Nash and Kreider.

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08-20-2012, 01:37 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Rangerdanger20 View Post
I think the deal was pretty fair, the way I look at it is the rangers have a much better shot at winning the cup with Nash then they did with dubi being an overpaid second liner at best and anisimov playing good defense but providing next to nothing offensively. Both teams got what they wanted I don't think columbus won by any means
Columbus didn't win... yet. We'll see how Erixon progresses. Like Jonathan said, he's the most valuable piece in the trade.

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08-20-2012, 01:40 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
That's certainly a big if. I think just acquiring his contract makes you in a tough position with the uncertainty of the new CBA salary cap.
unless that uncertainty results in a 24% reduction of nash's salary lol

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08-20-2012, 01:48 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
We lose some salary, but that's because you're trading 3 players for one. When you fill out the roster to replace Dubinsky/Anisimov, you're going to use up more cap space.
That number didn't include Erixon. Dubi and Anisimov were replaced by Nash and Kreider.

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08-20-2012, 01:54 PM
  #280
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i don't like when people string together multiple deals cause it gets misleading, but in a way similar to erixon developing for clb you can add jt miller developing for us. cause if a year or so from now, miller is our #3 center and is just as good as dubi and anisimov but is making 1/4 of the $$ than the decision to give up dubi and artie looks even better...

but if he struggles to make it then it looks worse for us cause we gave up those 2 (imo) under the assumption that miller would backfill that role.

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08-20-2012, 01:58 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
That number didn't include Erixon. Dubi and Anisimov were replaced by Nash and Kreider.
the numbers that show the salaries as a wash included erixon's $1.75 mil cap hit.

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08-20-2012, 01:59 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
It's possible to lose a trade even if you win the cup. See Doug Weight.
Without Tikkanen, we likely don't win that Cup.

You'd rather have kept Weight and potentially still be winless?

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08-20-2012, 02:05 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
the numbers that show the salaries as a wash included erixon's $1.75 mil cap hit.
Fine. then factor in that he wasn't even a regular last year. We replaced him with Skjei. Anisimov is due For a raise next yr anyway. Now it's a wash without Erixon.

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08-20-2012, 02:19 PM
  #284
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Rick Nash is not a superstar player AINEC.

I've seen a lot of people claiming Rick Nash is a superstar player, a 'stud' and a player who plays the 'right way'.

Let's list some facts:

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OMG, We got Rick Nash what a steal!
Hold your horses for a moment! Rick Nash is the 6th highest player in terms of cap hit, yet he's never been remotely close to being the 6th best player at any point of his career. He has a higher cap hit than superior players like Marian Gaborik, Steven Stamkos, Jason Spezza and many others. Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Staal and Weber are the only players to have a higher cap hit than Nash, all are obviously superior players. Rick Nash is vastly overpaid for what's he brings to the ice. This is closer to a long term risk than a 'steal'.

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lololol. We got Nash, stick him with Richards and he's going to break out!
Where have I heard this before? Many times with former Rangers. Lindros, Gomez, LaFontaine, etc. All big name players that struggled as soon as they wore the Ranger blue. Now of course, this doesn't equte Nash as turning out as a disappointment like the players listed above, but you can't suddenly expect a 28yr old powerforward to magically find his 'true' NHL scoring touch. Contrary to popular belief, Nash actually got to play with some talented players including Huselius, Federov, Brassard and Jeff Carter. His PPG is very comparable to Ales Hemsky and Martin Havlat, who both haven't had support for the prime of their NHL careers. Ales Hemsky in particular worked with Shawn Horcoff (worst contract for a forward in the NHL) and Ryan Smyth as his best linemate options, it's remarkable that he put that many assist totals up. Imagine if he had legitimate scorers on his line! Just IMAGINE! You never see NHL players at age 28 breakout, very rarely does this happen. What you see is what you get with Rick Nash at this point.

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Rick Nash is an elite international player. We all saw how great he is when he plays with good linemates.
This one gives me a headache. International play, by no means is correlated to NHL play. It's such a different game. Patrik Thoresen has been the most dominant international hockey player the past 2 yrs, but he was a NHL scrub and still can't find a job here. Taking that into consideration, Rick Nash isn't even a great international player. He was gifted minutes early with Crosby in a short Olympic Tournament and finished with 2g. in 6 games. In the Olympics Nash has 6 pts in 13 games, not even close to being a dominant international player.

Also found this fun fact:

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Rich Nash has 21 pts in 14 career international games against Slovenia, Ukraine, Latvia, Norway, Belarus, France and Italy.
So take away those numbers and you have 32 pts in 40 international games. Good, but is he really a star international player?

Last point

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Rick Nash is a superstar player
LOL. This is all I have to say. You must have very low standards if Rick Nash is on your list of superstar players. 59 points, enough said. Declining point totals for 3 straight seasons, enough said. But let's go deeper to go against this claim.

His 10-11 season was pretty good. However he got very soft minutes which raised his PPG totals. The only true superstar season he had in his career was in 08-09 when he had a career year as it's an outlier from his other years of production. That season Rick Nash did very well against the top QUALCOMP. He's a decent player when matched up against top competition, but not elite. Not even remotely close.

His numbers have taken a hit the past few yrs and it isn't only because of bad linemates, or a bad environment. Some of the blame needs to go to the player as well for incompetent play and not living up to his contract. Fortunately for Nash, he escaped criticism since he played in a non-pressure hockey market with vastly low standards. He stabbed the Jackets in the back with his list and they were forced to move him to a team on his own personal list. I don't want a guy who's ecstatic to be here if he's a former 'franchise' player, I want a player that's devastated to leave his former franchise, a team that gave him every opportunity to succeed.

If you go into the players that were exchanged for Nash, you have a north-south winger who struggled last yr, but was really good the yr before. I'd say last yr was an outlier for Dubinsky if you compare it with his career totals. Erixon is a top NHL prospect, probably 20-25th, solid bet to be a top pair d-man in his prime. Anisimov was enthrusted into a defense-first system, at age 24, he still has a lot of room to grow. Not saying he will, but perhaps a bigger role offensively and ice time on a bad team will give him more confidence to find his scoring touch he had in the AHL. Kesler broke out at age 25 as a 70 pt player, and he was also a defense first, 3rd liner role than Anisimov was with the Rangers.

As for Nash, he is a good player, I expect 70 pts from him this season if he can work well on the PP, but I question investing in him at that cap rate.

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Old
08-20-2012, 02:21 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Thordic View Post
Without Tikkanen, we likely don't win that Cup.

You'd rather have kept Weight and potentially still be winless?
I don't agree. I think the team still could've won the cup with Weight. It's not like Tikkanen was our top line scorer like say a Nieuwendyk was in the Iginla-Nieuwendyk swap, then I'd say it was a fair swap, but it wasn't. It's the equivalence of trading Chris Kreider for Ruslan Fedotenko and winning the cup this season while Kreider has a long, successful career, 1000+ pt career elsewhere.

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08-20-2012, 02:29 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I don't agree. I think the team still could've won the cup with Weight. It's not like Tikkanen was our top line scorer like say a Nieuwendyk was in the Iginla-Nieuwendyk swap, then I'd say it was a fair swap, but it wasn't. It's the equivalence of trading Chris Kreider for Ruslan Fedotenko and winning the cup this season while Kreider has a long, successful career, 1000+ pt career elsewhere.
yeah maybe we could have won without him...and maybe we could have won without matteau and noonan and maybe someone else would have scored the double OT goals but you don't know so you can't make that assumption...

but boy would the decade to follow that season been different if we didn't choke against the pens in 92. we win it all that year and we keep weight and amonte. whole different world...

but not sure how that compares to the nash deal...that comparison would apply if we traded kreider.

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08-20-2012, 03:12 PM
  #287
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Also, Tikkanen was a hell of a lot better than Fedetenko, even at that stage of his career.

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08-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Arguments that have been hashed and rehashed a thousand times on this site already, many times by this same poster.
You're still on this? What else is there to say at this point? Everyone's heard every argument you make in this post enough times already. The issue is done with.

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08-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I don't agree. I think the team still could've won the cup with Weight. It's not like Tikkanen was our top line scorer like say a Nieuwendyk was in the Iginla-Nieuwendyk swap, then I'd say it was a fair swap, but it wasn't. It's the equivalence of trading Chris Kreider for Ruslan Fedotenko and winning the cup this season while Kreider has a long, successful career, 1000+ pt career elsewhere.
None of your parallels or comparisons make any sense whatsoever.

The only thing that is clear is you're a bit of a stat surfer, and dont have a a firm grasp on the different roles in professional ice hockey.

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08-20-2012, 04:15 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Thordic View Post
Also, Tikkanen was a hell of a lot better than Fedetenko, even at that stage of his career.
Fedotenko was also moved for Joni Pitkanen. Wonder how Lightning fans feel about that trade? They won the cup, but they gave up a d-man to build around for a grinder. It's stupid asset management, as was trading Gartner for Anderson and Weight for Tikkanen.

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08-20-2012, 04:27 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Fedotenko was also moved for Joni Pitkanen. Wonder how Lightning fans feel about that trade? They won the cup, but they gave up a d-man to build around for a grinder. It's stupid asset management, as was trading Gartner for Anderson and Weight for Tikkanen.
If you're going to continue to make misguided '94 parallels, at least put them in context. Smith felt that the 93-94 team was top heavy, meaning they didnt have enough toughness going down the lineup. Frankly, I couldnt really blame him after what happened in 92.

You call it stupid asset management - well, I call building a team predicated on offensive numbers stupid roster construction. Weight and (especially) Gartner would've gotten eaten alive in that hard-fought Devil's series.

Besides, decisions like those didnt doom this franchise after the '94 cup. It was the terrible, terrible decisions beginning almost immediately afterward and for the next decade.

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08-20-2012, 05:09 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If you're going to continue to make misguided '94 parallels, at least put them in context. Smith felt that the 93-94 team was top heavy, meaning they didnt have enough toughness going down the lineup. Frankly, I couldnt really blame him after what happened in 92.

You call it stupid asset management - well, I call building a team predicated on offensive numbers stupid roster construction. Weight and (especially) Gartner would've gotten eaten alive in that hard-fought Devil's series.

Besides, decisions like those didnt doom this franchise after the '94 cup. It was the terrible, terrible decisions beginning almost immediately afterward and for the next decade.
Weight for Tikkanen was absolutely the right move. The debatable move was Amonte for Matteau and Noonan. Yeah, Matteau scored those two huge goals, but it's hard to believe Amonte wouldn't have matched or exceeded that production in the playoffs. It was dealing Amonte and then later dealing Norstrom, Zubov, and Kovalev that really left this team old and decrepit.

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08-20-2012, 05:25 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Fedotenko was also moved for Joni Pitkanen. Wonder how Lightning fans feel about that trade? They won the cup, but they gave up a d-man to build around for a grinder. It's stupid asset management, as was trading Gartner for Anderson and Weight for Tikkanen.
Seriously?

Screw the cup, as long as our asset management is sound I'm content.

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08-20-2012, 05:27 PM
  #294
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Seriously?

Screw the cup, as long as our asset management is sound I'm content.
As I know you're being sarcastic, I agree with you here. Who the **** gives a **** about asset management if it wins you a Cup?

It wouldn't happen, but let's say we traded Kreider for a depth d man and ended up winning the Cup that year. Some of you would actually be upset? Pathetic.

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08-20-2012, 05:30 PM
  #295
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Fedotenko scored the two goals in game 7 against Calgary. And it was Feds +2 second round picks for the pick that was used to draft Pitkanen. Hard to argue that was a bad trade for Tampa.

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08-20-2012, 05:35 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Fedotenko was also moved for Joni Pitkanen. Wonder how Lightning fans feel about that trade? They won the cup, but they gave up a d-man to build around for a grinder. It's stupid asset management, as was trading Gartner for Anderson and Weight for Tikkanen.
LOLWUT

They don't give a **** about losing Pitkanen since they WON A ****ING CUP. They are very happy with it, I'm sure.

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08-20-2012, 05:40 PM
  #297
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Lol. Someone should go over to the Bolts board and ask if they give 2 ***** about losing Pitkanen and winning the Cup.

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08-20-2012, 05:58 PM
  #298
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I also wonder if asset management can be considered stupid if it leads to a team achieving its ultimate goal.

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08-20-2012, 06:00 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If you're going to continue to make misguided '94 parallels, at least put them in context. Smith felt that the 93-94 team was top heavy, meaning they didnt have enough toughness going down the lineup. Frankly, I couldnt really blame him after what happened in 92.

You call it stupid asset management - well, I call building a team predicated on offensive numbers stupid roster construction. Weight and (especially) Gartner would've gotten eaten alive in that hard-fought Devil's series.

Besides, decisions like those didnt doom this franchise after the '94 cup. It was the terrible, terrible decisions beginning almost immediately afterward and for the next decade.
The terrible decision making was happening beginning in that 1994 season.

You don't throw away elite prospects prospects/star players for grinders or players past their prime yrs. Hence the Kreider for Fedotenko comparison.Yeah I'd be happy if we won a cup, but I'd also have the 'what could've been' scenario if we had Kreider for all those yrs. I feel the same way with Weight.

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08-20-2012, 06:02 PM
  #300
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Seriously?

Screw the cup, as long as our asset management is sound I'm content.
Agreed.

Cap flexibility over cups any day of the week. wonder who'll take this seriously

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