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David Desharnais next contract

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Old
08-20-2012, 12:06 PM
  #251
durojean
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Plekanec is a good player but he is very inconsistant offensively.

He gets most of his point at the beginning of the season when others are not top shape while he is because he is a work horse.

The age difference doesn't really matter because Desharnais had to deal with a lot more adversity than Plekanec and he still has to adapt to the much faster pace of the nhl. Expecting Desharnais to play like he has 3 years of experience at that level is asking for a lot even if he's older. A proof of that is Emelin.

I just think that Desharnais has a better ceiling than Plekanec but probably as of right now Plekanec is the best player. And I also think they should try him on the wing.

Only thing I didn't like last year is that they decided to remove Plek from the PowerPlay and change his position jus to make room for Desharnais. Wasn't really fair honestly and they probably shouldn't have.

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08-20-2012, 01:25 PM
  #252
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Wow some of your arguments are laughable.

First off this is the NHL there is no such thing as easy minutes, especially on a team which lacks gifted offensiveness defense to help the attack missing it's team leader and best goal scorer. If DD is so bad as some of you say he should have fell flat on his face being forced to go head to head with all the other teams top line and add the fact that he didn't start as the top guy and only played half of a full season prior.

Most of these stats are BS and the fact is this team was bad and we can at least acknowledge the success of a select few players who emerged like DD to give us a little hope.

As for DD and his supporters on this site none are claiming he is our savor at center but are simply saying he can play and may even get better.
As for Plek's he has been so inconsistent his whole career but the habs were to dumb to lock him until he had one good year and in return we way over paid for him.

Eller has been given allot of chances mostly due to the pressure of giving up Halak, the brass didn't want him to fail. I'm just not sure he has the offense to get past the 3rd line, he's got the tools not sure he has the mind. Image what DD could do with his tools

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08-20-2012, 01:34 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanont View Post
First off this is the NHL there is no such thing as easy minutes, especially on a team which lacks gifted offensiveness defense to help the attack missing it's team leader and best goal scorer. If DD is so bad as some of you say he should have fell flat on his face being forced to go head to head with all the other teams top line and add the fact that he didn't start as the top guy and only played half of a full season prior.
Yes, every minute in the NHL is tough, tons of respect is due to everyone who makes it in that league, but there are relatively easy minutes, differently skilled competition and differently skilled linemates. The fact is, the entire line was productive last season. So, a GM can give big extensions to both Pacioretty and Desharnais, or he can figure out which is more responsible for the line's success, and which is more likely to remain productive going forward. So far, I think Bergevin has made the correct decision.

A question I haven't seen asked in this thread: what's the downside to waiting until after next season to extend DD? The risks are either, his production continues to increase to the point where his pricetag increases substantially, or the next CBA is so player-friendly that salaries increase substantially across the board. IMO neither is likely.

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08-20-2012, 01:52 PM
  #254
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It's a shame that Desharnais is getting the easy minutes because he can't handle tough minutes. But Pacioretty and Cole are so good it's incredible...

Come on people... Desharnais was our best center last year. Doesn't mean he'll be this year but last year he was

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08-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
It's a shame that Desharnais is getting the easy minutes because he can't handle tough minutes. But Pacioretty and Cole are so good it's incredible...

Come on people... Desharnais was our best center last year. Doesn't mean he'll be this year but last year he was
Well, yeah, Pacioretty and Cole were really, really good! You can't look at their wingers, and say Plekanec and Desharnais' performances can be compared on the same plane - http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/forwards.html

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08-20-2012, 02:01 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post

A question I haven't seen asked in this thread: what's the downside to waiting until after next season to extend DD? The risks are either, his production continues to increase to the point where his pricetag increases substantially, or the next CBA is so player-friendly that salaries increase substantially across the board. IMO neither is likely.
Good question, I guess if we wait and he gets 80 points his price tag will be huge and probably not worth it. If we can lock him up now for cheap he is worth it. When we were on the rise a few years back we never locked anyone up and they had big years and priced us out, guys like streit, sourray,ect could have been bargains but we lost them and over paid for guys like Pleks,Andrea K, ect .

With a lock out looming and with DD never having a big pay day he might be willing to sign cheaper with a big cash signing bonus he can pocket now.

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08-20-2012, 02:51 PM
  #257
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Just want to be clear...I am a fan of Desharnais's style (crafty, nice to watch...I like how he holds on the puck an extra second or two to make that nice play...confidence/talent). I just wish he wasn't 5'6 (worried about him for playoffs...can his very small frame handle bruises and can he played well while injured in playoffs? many warriors play well while injured in playoffs). For the record...I'm always rooting for the small guy (Desharnais, St-Louis, Theo Fleury, Ennis, and more...), but...if we have the chance to get bigger, why not?

Or, if there is a way to keep all our centers...maybe that's the solution but I just don't see it happening (Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Eller, Leblanc as winger/center). My prediction: in a year or two...one center will go. Eller? Desharnais? Plekanec? Leblanc? (has more value to our Habs, no? I want him to stay a long time as a Hab). We don't know...maybe Eller is the one that will go? We will then have Pleks, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Leblanc.


I see this...Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Eller (and Leblanc as winger/center for center depth in case of injuries) as the three lines that can win it for us but I could be absolutely wrong! Tough decision to make in a year or two...give $4mil/year to Desharnais? (if he continues to perform well) or package him for a 1st Rnd Pick and a solid prospect or young NHL player? (could be risky unless Eller is the real deal).

And, maybe some here want:
Desharnais, Galchenyuk, Eller, Leblanc?


Big question in a year or two for our GM:
do you go with...Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Eller, Leblanc (winger/center)...
OR
Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Leblanc?

(I just hope it's not Plekanec that is traded unless a team offers so much we cannot refuse it!
Leblanc will NEVER play C again. He's a winger. Let's leave it at that.


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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It depends on the role.

If a defenseman or 2nd liner does that, you'd be ecstatic. If it's your 1st line center who gets 1st line linemates, PP opportunities, Ozone starts, privileged minutes, etc, then your value over replacement is much lower.
There are 90 first liners in the NHL.

57 of those 90 had 60 points or more.

3 of those 57 were Habs.

The 90th forward scored 51-points (Plekanec also squeaked into the top-90), which would be on the bubble of the first line.

From 91-180, would be the second line wingers. This ranges from 50-points to 32-points (last season). This is were our biggest problem is. We had 0 wingers finish the year on our team in a Top-6 spot. We we're still fairly close to the playoffs IIRC, when we traded away Cammalleri and Kostitsyn. Kostitsyn was on pace to barely finish in the top-180, while Cammalleri was on pace to score enough to play him around 120th.

Our problem is clearly that our winger depth was 1) depleted and 2) not used correctly. And that's just not to say that the two best wingers shouldn't have been kept together. It's saying that 1) we got unlucky with Gionta's injury. 2) Bourque sucked. 3) Cammalleri was traded prematurely (he was a baby it seemed, but he could still produce somewhat) and 4) Kostitsyn was never used correctly.

If Bourque or Gionta manages to crack the Top-180 this year, we should have a much better shot at reaching the playoffs (assuming it doesn't come at the expense of letting in more goals).

I know it's not an exact science, but it's not a ridiculous statement either.


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08-20-2012, 03:27 PM
  #258
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Well, yeah, Pacioretty and Cole were really, really good! You can't look at their wingers, and say Plekanec and Desharnais' performances can be compared on the same plane - http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/forwards.html
That can be twisted around. No way Pacioretty or Cole get as much points if they are spread on other lines.

It is true however that Desharnais and Plekanec's production can't be compared fairly due to a vast difference of quality in linemates but that won't be fixed by taking Desharnais away. We need better wingers to make the second line a scoring threat. Thats perhaps this team's greatest need.

Ideally we'd have a scoring line (Desharnais') and two good ''2-way" lines (Plekanec and Eller's) along with an energy/toughness line (White/Prust). The two way lines need to be legitimate scoring threats and they are not.

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08-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #259
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Wow some of your arguments are laughable.

First off this is the NHL there is no such thing as easy minutes, especially on a team which lacks gifted offensiveness defense to help the attack missing it's team leader and best goal scorer. If DD is so bad as some of you say he should have fell flat on his face being forced to go head to head with all the other teams top line and add the fact that he didn't start as the top guy and only played half of a full season prior.

Most of these stats are BS and the fact is this team was bad and we can at least acknowledge the success of a select few players who emerged like DD to give us a little hope.

As for DD and his supporters on this site none are claiming he is our savor at center but are simply saying he can play and may even get better.
As for Plek's he has been so inconsistent his whole career but the habs were to dumb to lock him until he had one good year and in return we way over paid for him.

Eller has been given allot of chances mostly due to the pressure of giving up Halak, the brass didn't want him to fail. I'm just not sure he has the offense to get past the 3rd line, he's got the tools not sure he has the mind. Image what DD could do with his tools
exactly... (example) facing Crosby/Malkin is the same as facing, i dunno... a guy line Nokelainen, right ?

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08-20-2012, 04:49 PM
  #260
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Yes, every minute in the NHL is tough, tons of respect is due to everyone who makes it in that league, but there are relatively easy minutes, differently skilled competition and differently skilled linemates.
That's interresting. Made me wonder this :

If you play against the 2007 Ducks, witch one is the easy line:

1) the Selanne-McDonald-Kunitz line, scored 100 goals
2) the Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer line, one of the best defensive line in the NHL that year, if not the best

If that team played against Mtl, you can be sure Desharnais wouldn't face McDonald, he would face Pahlsson.

So, who gets the "easy minutes" isn't as easy to define as some might think.


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08-20-2012, 05:02 PM
  #261
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That's interresting. Made me wonder this :

If you play against the 2007 Ducks, witch one is the easy line:

1) the Selanne-McDonald-Kunitz line, scored 100 goals
2) the Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer line, one of the best defensive line in the NHL that year, if not the best

If that team played against Mtl, you can be sure Desharnais wouldn't face McDonald, he would face Pahlsson.

So, who gets the "easy minutes" isn't has easy to define as some might think.
It becomes a lot easier when you stop thinking in just point scoring and start thinking in terms of matchup winning.

Its a lot harder to beat McDonald's line on the scoresheet in goals for and against than it is to beat Pahlsson's line there. Sure you score more against McDonald, but hockey isn't a game of scoring goals, its a game of outscoring your opponent.

Edit: Also people massively over estimate the number of real shutdown third lines there are in this league. Most teams rely on their top six for both offense and defense. Carolina, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay and Winnipeg had ones in the East last year, but Winnipeg's and Tampa Bay's were sacrificial lamb bottom six line that got slaughtered so the rest of the team could have easier minues. Really we're talking 3 teams out of 15 here with a stereotypical 3rd line shutdown group.

Most 3rd lines these days are just worse overall players than the top two lines, not defensive specialists.


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08-20-2012, 05:18 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Ideally we'd have a scoring line (Desharnais') and two good ''2-way" lines (Plekanec and Eller's) along with an energy/toughness line (White/Prust). The two way lines need to be legitimate scoring threats and they are not.
Nobody disagrees with that lineup for next season.

This thread is about Desharnais' contract, which would begin in the 2013-2014 season, and thus we are discussing what Desharnais' value and possible role on the team will be when Galchenyuk is our 3rd line center (2013-2014) and our 1st line center (2014-2015 and beyond). That lineup is the best we can do for next season, it might take us all the way to 11th place.

I think it's a near-certainty that we'll have the same first line at the start of next season, unless there are injuries or Therrien wants to try something.


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08-20-2012, 05:35 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
It's a shame that Desharnais is getting the easy minutes because he can't handle tough minutes. But Pacioretty and Cole are so good it's incredible...
FYI Pacioretty had 14 goals in 37 games last year as a 21 year old, with Gomez and Gionta. The 33 goals in 79 games scored this year as a 22 year-old was natural progression.

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08-20-2012, 06:29 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
FYI Pacioretty had 14 goals in 37 games last year as a 21 year old, with Gomez and Gionta. The 33 goals in 79 games scored this year as a 22 year-old was natural progression.
So, since this was "natural progression", Patches could have done the same with let's say, Noke?

I know what ur going to say and it's ridiculous to think that Desharnais wasn't somewhat responsible for Paches' success.

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08-20-2012, 06:59 PM
  #265
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So, since this was "natural progression", Patches could have done the same with let's say, Noke?

I know what ur going to say and it's ridiculous to think that Desharnais wasn't somewhat responsible for Paches' success.
That's ludicrous. No one is arguing that. The question is whether Desharnais is better for Pacioretty than a replacement center on the Habs which means Plekanec or Eller last year.

For what its worth, I'd say with Eller his scoring is less but his plus minus would be about the same due to better defense/puck possession.


And from what I can tell about playing with Plekanec based off of 2011-12 as well as 2010-11, it makes for equivalent offense and much better defense.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Cole would be one of the top two-way lines in the conference in my opinion. On 5 on 5 in the neighbourhood of Marchand-Bergeron-Seguin or Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr (they relied on the powerplay).

Which is why I'd like to see Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta/Cole as the top line next year. With that at the top of the lineup on even strength everyone else's job gets easier. Them plus Gorges-Subban forces difficult decisions for the opposing coach, that line will beat depth defensive options easily, but if you play it power on power then your best forwards are apt to get shutdown. Then build a secondary shutdown line around Eller (Moen? Gionta? Bourque? Prust? Armstrong?) and a secondary scoring line around Desharnais (Cole? Bourque? Galchenyuk? Armstrong? Leblanc/Palushaj?).

I think it will be easier to use Desharnais in situations where he really adds value to the team if you can build a really good two-way line to get the puck up the ice and draw away the opposing top players and use his skills to maximize the offense from the secondary scorers.


I also think that not necessarily next year but after that we'll see Desharnais move into a platoon LW/C role with Galchenyuk. The team only really needs one of them at center as Plekanec and Eller are perfect for the 2 two-way centerman jobs a top nine needs and this will allow both 94 and 51 to play the pure offense role they probably will be best suited for during that time frame. It also shores up a weak area at LW, which is really bad after Pacioretty.

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08-20-2012, 07:20 PM
  #266
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Pacioretty - Plekanec - Cole would be a good line (I'm not sure it would be any better, scoring wise, than the one we have this year though). But it also depletes our team even more than using Plekanec on the second line. Then again, 75% of the board here wants to tank anyway.

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08-20-2012, 07:33 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Pacioretty - Plekanec - Cole would be a good line (I'm not sure it would be any better, scoring wise, than the one we have this year though). But it also depletes our team even more than using Plekanec on the second line. Then again, 75% of the board here wants to tank anyway.
that's whay I was for splitting DD-Cole-Pacc last season... cause wether it's DD or Plekanec playing with those two, the other will end up with ****** wingers (Gionta should miss MANY games again this year, as usual)...

and considering we dont have that great of a defense, being a one line team is recipe for disaster IMO.

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08-20-2012, 07:43 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Pacioretty - Plekanec - Cole would be a good line (I'm not sure it would be any better, scoring wise, than the one we have this year though). But it also depletes our team even more than using Plekanec on the second line. Then again, 75% of the board here wants to tank anyway.
Its offense is probably equivalent, the defense superior. The big thing is that its a line you can hide other lines behind rather than use in specific situations. It puts the weaker parts of the lineup in better positions to succeed.

With a guy like Plekanec you want to force the other team to match their best against him by making him a real scoring threat to go along with his defense. Which was why it was important to have Cammalleri and/or Kostitsyn there with him before. Pacioretty is the best bet in to make that happen. He isn't a big matchup threat with Bourque or Moen on his left wing.

I'd think it would be better to switch Gionta with Cole and keep Cole with Desharnais though.

Plekanec doesn't make players into better scorers, he makes scorers into better two-way players so his linemates should reflect that.

Desharnais however is really good at squeezing out offense from his linemates but not so much good at controlling the balance of play, so his linemates and usage should reflect that.

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08-20-2012, 07:43 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
exactly... (example) facing Crosby/Malkin is the same as facing, i dunno... a guy line Nokelainen, right ?
Desharnais plays nearly 20 minutes a game. Fourth liners play between 5 and 10 and are frequently matched against other fourth liners. Its third and second liners Desharnais played mostly against, not ''easy opposition''.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
FYI Pacioretty had 14 goals in 37 games last year as a 21 year old, with Gomez and Gionta. The 33 goals in 79 games scored this year as a 22 year-old was natural progression.
And somehow Desharnais cannot progress I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
Nobody disagrees with that lineup for next season.

This thread is about Desharnais' contract, which would begin in the 2013-2014 season, and thus we are discussing what Desharnais' value and possible role on the team will be when Galchenyuk is our 3rd line center (2013-2014) and our 1st line center (2014-2015 and beyond). That lineup is the best we can do for next season, it might take us all the way to 11th place.

I think it's a near-certainty that we'll have the same first line at the start of next season, unless there are injuries or Therrien wants to try something.
Next year -

Desharnais
Plekanec
Eller
Gomez/Nokelainen

2013/14

Desharnais
Plekanec (Eller winger on second line)
Galchenyuk

2014/2015

Galchenyuk
Desharnais (Eller winger again)
Plekanec

After that its too hard to predict. If you don't like Eller playing wing then Pleky or even Desharnais can be tried instead (but the two are much better at centers imho). Moving a center to wing has many advantages. That player can replace a center if theres an injury, even during a game and it also helps our pitiful depth at wing. We have few sure prospects that project to be nearly as good as our current centers are. Gallagher, Kristo, Leblanc, Collberg are nice but we're lucky if more than two of them become legit top6 players.

About Desharnais' role in future years, I'd say much like Daniel Briere in Philadelphia. Powerplay and offensive wizard. Not as much goal scoring but a scoring threat all the same, best paired with a good goal scorer or too. He can play that role on the third line years from now and before that he'll always have a place on the first and second line.


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08-20-2012, 07:46 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Desharnais plays nearly 20 minutes a game. Fourth liners play between 5 and 10 and are frequently matched against other fourth liners. Its third and second liners Desharnais played mostly against, not ''easy opposition''.



And somehow Desharnais cannot progress I suppose.
yup, playing against 1st liners is the same as playing against 3rd liners...


Wrong, DD still have as many years of developpement as the kids we drafted in June...



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08-20-2012, 08:05 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Desharnais plays nearly 20 minutes a game. Fourth liners play between 5 and 10 and are frequently matched against other fourth liners. Its third and second liners Desharnais played mostly against, not ''easy opposition''.



And somehow Desharnais cannot progress I suppose.
Relatively weak forwards for a top nine player. 4th liners basically live in their own little world in terms of NHL competition. Which is why they play so little each night whereas top nine forwards are pretty tightly clustered.

Top level ES forwards play 16 minutes ES except for a few outliers, bottom level top nine forwards play 12. As a population, top nine forwards cluster tightly between ~15 and ~13 ES minutes a game even though there is a wide spread of talent between them.

There's about 42 minutes of even strength play per game for the top nine, which in matchup terms basically gets divided up between the top three lines. So softer minutes for real players means playing 2nd-3rd liners on average and harder means playing 2nd-1st liners on average.

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08-20-2012, 08:12 PM
  #272
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[QUOTE=ECWHSWI;53733453]yup, playing against 1st liners is the same as playing against 3rd liners...

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Wrong, DD still have as many years of developpement as the kids we drafted in June...


DAChampion - the bolded are real strawman. I never said any of that.

ECWHSWI - some players stop progressing before they hit 20, others still progress in their late 20ies and 30ies, its not even uncommon. Desharnais has been getting better every year and there is no hint that it might stop soon.

Last year was his first full year in the NHL, like Alexei Emelin who is a bit older. I don't see anyone claiming Emelin is at the peak of his development. I don't want to accuse anyone of double standards but it seems to me people are grasping at straws to ditch Desharnais, like they've done his whole career.

As for third liners and first liners - NHL third liners are good hockey players. They are defensive specialists, seasoned veterans, tough fellas. You'd think a player like Desharnais would have a hard time scoring against them.. Of course you don't send Desharnais to defend against Crosby if you have Plekanec. I wouldn't stand Stamkos or Tavares either. Desharnais is not a two way forward but he's a playmaking center, I'm sure theres a use for that in a top6. Last I recall forwards' task is to ensure goals are scored first and foremost and Desharnais definitely helps that. We have a ****load of two way players already.

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08-20-2012, 08:28 PM
  #273
ECWHSWI
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[QUOTE=FlyingKostitsyn;53734107]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
yup, playing against 1st liners is the same as playing against 3rd liners...



DAChampion - the bolded are real strawman. I never said any of that.

ECWHSWI - some players stop progressing before they hit 20, others still progress in their late 20ies and 30ies, its not even uncommon. Desharnais has been getting better every year and there is no hint that it might stop soon.

Last year was his first full year in the NHL, like Alexei Emelin who is a bit older. I don't see anyone claiming Emelin is at the peak of his development. I don't want to accuse anyone of double standards but it seems to me people are grasping at straws to ditch Desharnais, like they've done his whole career.

As for third liners and first liners - NHL third liners are good hockey players. They are defensive specialists, seasoned veterans, tough fellas. You'd think a player like Desharnais would have a hard time scoring against them.. Of course you don't send Desharnais to defend against Crosby if you have Plekanec. I wouldn't stand Stamkos or Tavares either. Desharnais is not a two way forward but he's a playmaking center, I'm sure theres a use for that in a top6. Last I recall forwards' task is to ensure goals are scored first and foremost and Desharnais definitely helps that. We have a ****load of two way players already.
I have yet to see anyone in this thread claiming DD should be a 4th liner or anything...

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Old
08-20-2012, 08:36 PM
  #274
Et le But
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Let's give Pacioretty and Cole to Gomez and have both Plekanec and Desharnais play with plugs.

There, problem solved.

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08-20-2012, 09:37 PM
  #275
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Let's give Pacioretty and Cole to Gomez and have both Plekanec and Desharnais play with plugs.

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