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Does Bobby Ryan's value = PK Subban's value ?

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Old
08-20-2012, 03:30 PM
  #101
vespa99
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Imo Ryans value is higher right now but PK could be worth more in the future. I guess it comes down to need, and the bird in the hand or 2 in the bush scenerio.

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08-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #102
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Because both players are young, already very good at what they do, and still have room to get better, it's not as clear cut as some want to make it out to be. It boils down to which team you're asking and what their needs are. At the current time, I'd think, Ryan might have a bit more 'value'...but only because of his experience over Subban. That's not to say it won't change or that Ryan is superior to Subban.

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08-20-2012, 03:57 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
Because both players are young, already very good at what they do, and still have room to get better, it's not as clear cut as some want to make it out to be. It boils down to which team you're asking and what their needs are. At the current time, I'd think, Ryan might have a bit more 'value'...but only because of his experience over Subban. That's not to say it won't change or that Ryan is superior to Subban.
+1 thread can't get a better answer than this

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08-20-2012, 04:41 PM
  #104
Seventeen Twos
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as previously stated, ryan has a bit more hockey value, but subban makes up the difference in intangibles, so it's a wash imo

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08-20-2012, 04:49 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Seventeen Twos View Post
as previously stated, ryan has a bit more hockey value, but subban makes up the difference in intangibles, so it's a wash imo
I would change the word intangibles to potential. It seems to me PK's "intangibles" are mostly negative from what I read on this board etc. (not that I put too much stock into what I read here


Last edited by vespa99: 08-20-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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08-20-2012, 04:59 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
If you take a goalie like Luongo, and you try to find his average value... since most team already have a good goalie already. His "average' value should be close to zero ?
Kind of. Luongo is a very good goalie, though, so not every team that has a decent goalie should be without interest. But then you have further considerations in that case. I don't think it's too bad of a reflection of reality.

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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
For example, one mistake i see in this thread is the: "Ryan is more Proven" argument talking about his 30 goals seasons. But when acquiring a new player, we dont really care about his past, we acquire a player for what we expect from him in the future. I would rather acquire Ryan before he had his 30 goal season than after, so my team can benefit from having him for these season.
I agree. That said, unless we're talking about 18-21 year olds, past performances (and I mean performances, not necessarily numbers, which can, but don't have to correlate) are still the safest projector for coming ones. I agree with you that it's far from the only one, that's more than safe to say.

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08-20-2012, 05:22 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Seriously, watch P.K. more often...

He's (I'd say) the best 1 on 1 dman in the league, and all that talk about him being a defensive liability with his bad decision ??!?!?
Nah. I'll take Staal, Girardi and McDonagh over him in that regard just on the Rangers alone. I'm not being mean in regards to PK. I think he's a solid player. His defense is terribly overrated, though.

Posts like yours show just how overrated his defense is.

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Old
08-20-2012, 05:23 PM
  #108
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subban > ryan

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08-20-2012, 05:48 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
No, it's not just his opinion. He's right.

You just described Subban in your definition of a #1 D-man and now you're denying he plays like that... conclusion: you don't even watch him.
Guys, gliff doesn't believe Subban would be in the Ducks' top 4! He has no clue about Subban and thinks Fowler is better! You cannot "win" this argument even though Subban does exactly what gliff claims a true #1 defenceman needs to do to be a true #1!

Subban plays against the top opposition's line at even strength, on the PK, and also plays on our PP. He is an all-around defenceman, one of only FIFTEEN in the entire league to score over 30 points, have over 100 hits, block over 100 shots, and play over 23 minutes per game against the best lines in the NHL. He is not a one-dimensional player, he is one of the best all around defenders in the league in only his second season. He was even a significantly plus player while playing on a team that fell apart. Subban IS a #1 defenceman in the NHL. Period.

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Old
08-20-2012, 06:23 PM
  #110
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Bobby Ryan definitely has a higher value than any member of the Subban family. Even Mamma Subban.

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08-20-2012, 06:39 PM
  #111
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As a Habs fans, I personally wouldn't swap them one for one, because Subban fits more of a need for us. That alone shows their value is relatively close.

On the open market, however, I think Ryan could fetch more because he is a proven 30 goal scorer. Might not have a lot room to grow, like Subban does, though, so that evens the value a bit.

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08-20-2012, 06:44 PM
  #112
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No, but Ryan's value = Subban + Eller

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08-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #113
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Ryan, easily. I don't think Subban will ever reach his full potential, too much flash and not enough substance.

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08-20-2012, 07:04 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Nah. I'll take Staal, Girardi and McDonagh over him in that regard just on the Rangers alone. I'm not being mean in regards to PK. I think he's a solid player. His defense is terribly overrated, though.

Posts like yours show just how overrated his defense is.
Hahaha... I'd like to hear how in this world Staal is a better 1 on 1 dman than Subban. I won't speak for McDonagh because I'm too much uninformed about his game, aside the last playoffs, which he was good, but not as good as a I thought while reading HFboards.

Staal gets beat 1 on 1 by several occasion only in games against the Habs. He gets caught flat footed a lot.

Posts like yours show how uninformed you are and how you underrated Subban.

The poster you quote was right, in 1 on 1 situation, P.K is up there among the best player in the league.

And he has been great at it since his first playoffs in 2009-2010,

He is still prone to mistakes, like bad pass, odd clearing zone attempt which lead to turnover and goals.

But in odd man rush, 1 on 1, or along the board, down low in the corner, he is among the greatest in the league.

And how often I've seen breakaway or 2 on 1 broken by Subban with his great skating skills and abilities to catch up the play and pokecheck dive,

Get a clue Jonathan.

And there are *beep beep* people in this thread like CB Joe, saying there isn't enough substance from Subban. Kid, stop hating and get a clue, Subban since he's the league has been better than any dman you had on your team for the last 2 years.

Anyone remember Subban in the 2010 playoffs or 2011 ? How he shutdown Crosby and Ovechkin and how he was used heavily on last year in the 2nd half, always ahead of his opponent defensively?

Not enough substance...When I'm clueless on a subject or a player, I don't post anything, you know why? Because I don't have enough knowledge to form a proper opinion, an intelligent one...

You should do same, because you obviously don't know jack when you say Subban is all flash and no substance.

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Old
08-20-2012, 07:07 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
Ryan, easily. I don't think Subban will ever reach his full potential, too much flash and not enough substance.
Subban plays against the top opposition's line at even strength, on the PK, and also plays on our PP. He is an all-around defenceman, one of only FIFTEEN in the entire league to score over 30 points, have over 100 hits, block over 100 shots, and play over 23 minutes per game against the best lines in the NHL. He is not a one-dimensional player, he is one of the best all around defenders in the league in only his second season. He was even a significantly plus player while playing on a team that fell apart.

How much more substance does he need, for crying out loud. Do you guys actually know anything about Subban other than his name, position and race? More [I]substance[I]?!?!? What the F@(& does that mean?

I can easily understand people who feel Ryan has more value. I have no issue with people who believe Ryan is worth a bit more than Subban. However, people who simply dismiss what Subban has already accomplished in his 2 years in the league need to watch a bit more hockey or try to learn more about the game.

More substance...

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08-20-2012, 07:25 PM
  #116
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Bobby Ryan has a bit more value as it currently stands, BUT I will make the epic declaration that by the end of the next NHL season (god knows when that will be), Subban will take this one by quite a bit.

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08-20-2012, 07:34 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
Ryan, easily. I don't think Subban will ever reach his full potential, too much flash and not enough substance.
Seriously ? Not enough substance ? What? I can't even?

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08-20-2012, 07:44 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Guys, gliff doesn't believe Subban would be in the Ducks' top 4! He has no clue about Subban and thinks Fowler is better! You cannot "win" this argument even though Subban does exactly what gliff claims a true #1 defenceman needs to do to be a true #1!

Subban plays against the top opposition's line at even strength, on the PK, and also plays on our PP. He is an all-around defenceman, one of only FIFTEEN in the entire league to score over 30 points, have over 100 hits, block over 100 shots, and play over 23 minutes per game against the best lines in the NHL. He is not a one-dimensional player, he is one of the best all around defenders in the league in only his second season. He was even a significantly plus player while playing on a team that fell apart. Subban IS a #1 defenceman in the NHL. Period.
Totally have been preaching that. That is actually why I came in here was to say that.

Fowler is a #1 Subban is a boarderline NHLer.

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08-20-2012, 10:25 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Subban plays against the top opposition's line at even strength, on the PK, and also plays on our PP. He is an all-around defenceman, one of only FIFTEEN in the entire league to score over 30 points, have over 100 hits, block over 100 shots, and play over 23 minutes per game against the best lines in the NHL. He is not a one-dimensional player, he is one of the best all around defenders in the league in only his second season. He was even a significantly plus player while playing on a team that fell apart.

How much more substance does he need, for crying out loud. Do you guys actually know anything about Subban other than his name, position and race? More [I]substance[I]?!?!? What the F@(& does that mean?

I can easily understand people who feel Ryan has more value. I have no issue with people who believe Ryan is worth a bit more than Subban. However, people who simply dismiss what Subban has already accomplished in his 2 years in the league need to watch a bit more hockey or try to learn more about the game.

More substance...
I think he is over-hyped. He's a good skater with offensive flair. I think a lot of people see a fancy spin or deke and get wowed by it, when a simple pass would have been the smarter option. Subban's skill level is high, but I don't think he's a very good defender. Some people aren't going to like this, but I also think he has some major attitude problems which will prevent him from becoming the player he has the potential to be.

It's not unheard of to have a young defenceman come in to the league have a strong start but ultimately settle into a solid player, but not the player they had the potential to be. Guys like Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, and Pitkanen come to mind. These guys are all good defenceman, but I'd take a consistent 30+ goal scoring power forwards over all of them.

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08-20-2012, 10:41 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
I think he is over-hyped. He's a good skater with offensive flair. I think a lot of people see a fancy spin or deke and get wowed by it, when a simple pass would have been the smarter option. Subban's skill level is high, but I don't think he's a very good defender. Some people aren't going to like this, but I also think he has some major attitude problems which will prevent him from becoming the player he has the potential to be.

It's not unheard of to have a young defenceman come in to the league have a strong start but ultimately settle into a solid player, but not the player they had the potential to be. Guys like Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, and Pitkanen come to mind. These guys are all good defenceman, but I'd take a consistent 30+ goal scoring power forwards over all of them.
Its great that you think that, but many experts and fans of the montreal canadiens who have seen him play every night think your completely wrong on him not becoming the player who he needs to be. Also, there are statistical facts that show this and has greatly exceeded our expectations taking a number 1 role on this team.

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08-20-2012, 10:46 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
Its great that you think that, but many experts and fans of the montreal canadiens who have seen him play every night think your completely wrong on him not becoming the player who he needs to be. Also, there are statistical facts that show this and has greatly exceeded our expectations taking a number 1 role on this team.
Experts and fans said the same thing about the likes of Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, and Pitkanen too.

You can throw out all the stats you like, but sometimes young players have tremendous success in their first few years and settle down into a solid player, but not the player a lot of people thought they would become.

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08-20-2012, 10:48 PM
  #122
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Ryan has more value. It shouldn't even be a question on who has more.

If the question is do they have similar value? The answer is 'it's close'. Ryan is more accomplished but Subban's position is more important.

If mtl was offered ryan for subban i'm not sure they'd do it. I think they'd think long and hard about it though and may or may not go with the more proven asset.

For anaheim, they don't really consider it unless mtl adds a bit.

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08-21-2012, 12:10 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Totally have been preaching that. That is actually why I came in here was to say that.

Fowler is a #1 Subban is a boarderline NHLer.
We have had this discussion in the past, and you declared that Subban would be the #5 defenceman on the Ducks. Try to remember previous threads. The fact that you are pushing hard that Subban is not a #1 defenceman in this league shows your obliviousness to how good he actually is.

You HAVE been preaching that Subban is not a #1 defenceman in the league. You have been shown to be wrong in as many ways as possible other than simple opinion. No worries, you can keep saying Subban is not a #1 defenceman and we will keep watching him prove that he IS a #1 defenceman.

One last thing. You stated:

Quote:
a #1 needs to be a player that can be out there every part of the game and dominate
Subban is on the ice in all situations: PK, PP, ES. He plays against the other team's top offensive players during the PK and even strength, and faces their top PK unit when he is on the PP. So, you might try and realize that you DO believe Subban is a #1 right now since he fits YOUR own stated criteria for a #1 defenceman...


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 08-21-2012 at 12:38 AM. Reason: added a point!
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Old
08-21-2012, 12:31 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
Experts and fans said the same thing about the likes of Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, and Pitkanen too.

You can throw out all the stats you like, but sometimes young players have tremendous success in their first few years and settle down into a solid player, but not the player a lot of people thought they would become.
So it means nothing that he is one of only fifteen defenders in the entire NHL to put up very good offensive and defensive stats? It means nothing that he plays a shutdown role against the other teams' top line at even strength and on the PK? It means nothing that he is supposedly so bad defensively that he ended up a +9 on the third worst team in the NHL? All of the numbers and those of us who watch him for almost 82 games per year are wrong, but you are somehow right just because it is your opinion? You say he is over hyped, offer nothing of substance to back it up other than an off hand insult to people who watch him because they are idiots who get impressed by a spin move, and all of us who have watched and analyzed hockey for almost 4 decades are supposed to bow down to your wisdom? Get real.

Subban is not the best defenceman in the league. He is not yet a top 10 defenceman in this league. He is in the discussion for top 20. That makes him a #1, first pairing defenceman in the NHL. Heck, even if he was only rated 28th (as per NHL.com's rankings), that still qualifies him as a top pairing #1 defender. The fact that he is not simply an offensive or defensive specialist makes him more valuable as a defender, not less.

I also wonder at your statement that Phaneuf is not a top defender in this league. 44 points (12th in the league), over 200 hits (7th in the league), over 100 blocked shots (55th in the league), playing over 25 minutes per night (6th in the league) without a lot of great players around him and some pathetic goaltending. You really do not actually understand what makes a great defender in the NHL, do you? Phaneuf is easily a top 15 defender in the NHL.

Now, yes, it is possible that Subban will not surpass what he has done so far. It is also possible he WILL surpass what he has done so far. Try to have an actual, informed opinion next time, rather than just an opinion.

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Old
08-21-2012, 01:58 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
No, but Ryan's value = Subban + Eller
noooooooooooo

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